Talk:pierogi
I removed this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi, but it may very well be useful here at Wiktionary:
In Polish, pierogi is plural, pieróg being singular. Other Slavic languages follow the same scheme. In Russian and Ukrainian, the singular form of words derived from "pir"—the Russian pirog (пирог, pl. пироги, stress on the last syllable) or the Ukrainian pyrih (пиріг, pl. пироги, stress on the last syllable)—refers to a different type of food, such as pies or pirozhki.
Polish pierogi are not equal to Russian/Ukrainian пироги (Russian sg.: пирог, Ukrainian sg.: пиріг) edit
Polish dish called pierogi is identical to the Russian pelmeni or one Slavic type of dumplings (another one being vareniki (ru)/varenyky (uk). The Russian/Ukrainian пироги is plural for пирог (ru), пиріг (uk), which is pie, not dumplings or pirozhki Anatoli 02:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).
It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.
The request is to delete the first sense of the Polish entry. I know it is usual to have an rfv first, but in this case I have no doubt that the sense can be attested; I just think it should not be included as a separate sense. In Polish the word pierogi is simply the plural of pieróg, just like English pancakes is the plural of pancake. In the sentence “The Johnsons had pancakes for breakfast”, the meaning of the word “pancakes” is a dish (it isn’t like Mr. Johnson had a pancake and Mrs. Johnson also had a pancake), but we wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) list that as a separate sense. The Polish Wiktionary gives only one sense for pierogi: an inflectional form of pieróg. We should do the same here. --Lambiam 11:19, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- pieróg is not defined as pierogi; it's defined as dumplings. Cooking definitions can often be a bit opaque to me, but I think the English reader would like to know, somewhere, the relation between pierogi (Polish) and pierogi (English). I'd interpret this change as saying the Polish word was specialized being borrowed into English, to a subset of "dumplings", that the first sense of the Polish entry is not in fact correct.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:41, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is adequately explained by the English etymology section “From Polish pierogi, singular pieróg, from Proto-Slavic *pir (“festivity, banquet”).” If you think this is not sufficient, any elaboration should be added to the English section, but I believe that the reader is intelligent enough to understand that a dish of dumplings named with a word borrowed from Polish is not a bunch of Chinese-style dumplings, but dumplings that owe their characteristics to Polish cuisine. If they want more information, they can follow the link to Wikipedia. The Polish Wikipedia uses the term for dumplings in general (for example, mantı is explained as Turkish or Central Asian pierogi) and their article Pierogi discusses dumplings in a variety of national or ethnic cuisines (African, Belarusian, Brazilian, Chinese, Czech, Finnish, Georgian, German, Greek, Indian, Italian, Japanese, Jewish, Korean, Lebanese, Lithuanian, Mexican, Russian, Spanish, Tartar, Tibetan, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Uzbek), although a large part of the article is devoted to Polish-style pierogi. I think this is a perfectly natural thing. English kielbasa invariably refers to a Polish sausage, but in Polish kiełbasa is used for any sausage, including Italian salami, German Frankfurter Würstchen, and Austrian Vienna sausages. In Turkish, pilav is simply cooked rice (or bulgur) and the Turkish Wikipedia has no problem writing that pilav is traditionally the main Japanese food, but in English pilav refers specifically to Turkish-style pilav. So indeed the first sense of the Polish entry is not in fact correct in the sense that it is too specific; the correct definition would have been dumplings – which is already the second sense. --Lambiam 20:52, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think the problem is with the singular entry (Polish pierogi). For me, a dumpling is something you make by putting a piece of solid dough in soup to cook with the soup. That entry should make clear whether pieróg includes my sense, or whether it's specific to what is called pierogi in English (see w:Kluski, for instance). Either way, I doubt that Polish speakers would see the first sense as anything but another way of saying the second sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Based on the descriptions on the Polish Wiktionary and Wikipedia, a pieróg is supposed to have a filling. But it does not have to be the kind of filling you’d expect when having pierogi in a Polish restaurant. Ravioli and potstickers also qualify. --Lambiam 01:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think the problem is with the singular entry (Polish pierogi). For me, a dumpling is something you make by putting a piece of solid dough in soup to cook with the soup. That entry should make clear whether pieróg includes my sense, or whether it's specific to what is called pierogi in English (see w:Kluski, for instance). Either way, I doubt that Polish speakers would see the first sense as anything but another way of saying the second sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is adequately explained by the English etymology section “From Polish pierogi, singular pieróg, from Proto-Slavic *pir (“festivity, banquet”).” If you think this is not sufficient, any elaboration should be added to the English section, but I believe that the reader is intelligent enough to understand that a dish of dumplings named with a word borrowed from Polish is not a bunch of Chinese-style dumplings, but dumplings that owe their characteristics to Polish cuisine. If they want more information, they can follow the link to Wikipedia. The Polish Wikipedia uses the term for dumplings in general (for example, mantı is explained as Turkish or Central Asian pierogi) and their article Pierogi discusses dumplings in a variety of national or ethnic cuisines (African, Belarusian, Brazilian, Chinese, Czech, Finnish, Georgian, German, Greek, Indian, Italian, Japanese, Jewish, Korean, Lebanese, Lithuanian, Mexican, Russian, Spanish, Tartar, Tibetan, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Uzbek), although a large part of the article is devoted to Polish-style pierogi. I think this is a perfectly natural thing. English kielbasa invariably refers to a Polish sausage, but in Polish kiełbasa is used for any sausage, including Italian salami, German Frankfurter Würstchen, and Austrian Vienna sausages. In Turkish, pilav is simply cooked rice (or bulgur) and the Turkish Wikipedia has no problem writing that pilav is traditionally the main Japanese food, but in English pilav refers specifically to Turkish-style pilav. So indeed the first sense of the Polish entry is not in fact correct in the sense that it is too specific; the correct definition would have been dumplings – which is already the second sense. --Lambiam 20:52, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Already removed out of process by Rua, but now officially RFD-deleted. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)