User talk:Sarri.greek/2022

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Sarri.greek ♫

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2022

Happy New Year ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 02:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I need your help!

Hey! I've created Apostrophierung but one of my citations contains a Greek word that I unfortunately can't type. Could you take care of this for me please? Happy New Year! — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fytcha, sorry for the delay, I just saw this. The word is τρόχιλος (also form τροχίλος. -I am not sure what the meaning of the passage is-. Happy New Year to you too! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 23:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! The meaning is not so important, the passage just says that this word is printed correctly with Greek letters (as opposed to transcribed, I guess). — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 00:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Why did you ban me I just wanted people to learn the reality I am a chef and I know about this staff 2A02:587:9E01:B900:A95E:B8A4:2F0C:4FF3 16:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Inflections of adjective

@Sarri.greek It's over ten years since I created these and they're proabably due for a revisit. I'm looking at ης-ια-ι first User:Saltmarsh/Lists/Adjectives. Sources seem to say little, with Traindphyllidis 2004 saying that masc & neuter genitive singulars (σταχτιού/σταχτή) are uncommon. Holton doesn't give the alternative. Should ής-ιά-ί template be removed in favour of ής-ιά-ί-2? — Saltmarsh^🢃 19:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, the only addition I would use to {{el-decl-adj-ής-ιά-ί}} - σταχτής or πορτοκαλής, easier pronunciation: perhaps el:καφετής (colour καφέ), is

a masculine genitive ή / ιού as in el.Category&Appendix. The form -ή (του σταχτή) is a sure thing. I do not think there is a need for a second template.

Ι would not bother with a second neuter genitive ιού / ί The persistent -ί, because all these colours can also be uttered as indeclinable (except δεξής, el:δεξής = δεξιός:right). The sources:

• I cannot understand the -ή neuter at DSMG E8, I wonder whether it is a misprint.
• Ι followed the schoolbook for Gymnasio χρυσαφής example (it has a reverse sequence for masculine) He also has a little note about accusative.plural -είς, but this was not found for all words, so I did not include it in the template.
• σταχτής children's schoolbook written by Warburton (cowriter of Holton's Grammar) gives only one neuter,
• The 'Bible', the 1941 Grammar by Triantafyllidis, §630 has only -ιού both masc. and neuter. §631 indeede says (as you mentioned) that both these genitives are rare, but at a footnote he gives an example of a masculine -ιού. I do not know why he does not have the -ή masculine... Perhaps it was not usual in the 1940s.
• Holton (μαβής) does not give a second neuter. -never mind for the parenthesis there-.
• δεξής, el:δεξής can NOT have second neuter gen.singular.

All this Cat. are colours. +note at headword line: It can also be indeclinable -ί like σταχτί. But except δεξής This can NOT be indeclinable.

The other note in the greek table says the -ιού, -ιά, -ιών endings are pronounced with synizesis (as one syllable).

The only reason I included the neuter.2nd.genitive is that in el.wikt we mention everything seen in grammars, excluding nothing, especially if it is in schoolbooks.

Your work for adjectives, was great, no need for changes, except this addition of the masculine ή / ιού ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 00:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thank you so much — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Categorisation

Good morning @Sarri.greek, I am revisiting the inflection tables for adjectives, some were created in ad hoc fashion and may be incorrect (eg Άγιος and άγιος have different templates in Wiktionary). Also, I think I should like to try to align the categories with those used in Βικλεξικό; is there anything about the way yours are arranged that you should draw my attention to?
We had pictures in the paper of snow in Athens and looking at a webcam nr Syntagma Sq. it's still around, luckily we have escaped so far! — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:51, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh it was a lot of snow in a very short time. People are not accustomed to it, electricity went kaput in main areas, and cars were stuck in highways for more than 15 hours with people starving and freezing in them, in the middle of Athens. There is an uproar.

About adjectives. Your categorisations are fine. The way you name them (by the sequence of endings) is very good. Probably I should have done the same thing at el.wikt. but i chose to stick to the style of catchwords. There can always be an interwiki link between el-en categories through wikidata.

But I am still struggling with some variations at el.Appendix for adj and participles. I hope to finish it by the end of the year.

The exmple άγιος / el:άγιος is one of the tricky ones because of the different pronunciation of formal and informal. The capital Άγιος is not relevant, !!Ο i forgot to add both tables at Άγιος. The note at the inf.table is very good, and I forgot to add it at el.wikt!! Thank you for the correction...

There are some categorisations that are too detailed (for example, that terrible group of -ος-ος(or-η or-α) like κερδοφόρος. DSMG makes (at the lemmata, not at the examples) a distinction of [masc:-ος.fem:-ος/-α.neu:-ο] and [masc:-ος.fem:-α/-ος.neu:-ο] The behaviour of the feminine is 'anarchic', to use your word!, and I do not think it is needed in wiktionaries other then the greek one (even there, it is too much!!).

Another horrifying group: -ων like μετριόφρων with approx.7 variations. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I intend to «διαβάζετε, σημειώνετε, μαθαίνετε and ενδόμυχα χωνεύετε» ("read, mark, learn and inwardly digest") at my leasure. I was surprised to note that you think "ος-η-ο" is a better way of naming the cats. re "adj/part appndx" — I have been intending to rewrite "About Greek" and started in 2017 - so much for good intentions! — Saltmarsh^🢃 17:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

μερακλής

Happy February @Sarri.greek. It is 2.2.22, I mention this because I remember a maths lesson on a sunny May morning - it was 5.5.55 and I was ten - having to work out how many days there were before 6.6.66. June 1966 seemed such a long way away!
To business - the μερακλής/πλακατζής inflections: Βικιλεξικό has <μερακλής, -ού, -ίδικο> and Holton has <μπελαλής, -ού, -ήδικο> and doesn't give any <-ίδικο> examples. Looking in Μπαμπινιώτης the examples I found were all listed as nouns mostly with an -ού feminine and an -ήδικος adjectival form. Is this a case of having alternative spellings μερακλίδικο and μερακλήδικο? — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

:))):))) 2022.02.02!!

Correct @Saltmarsh Δε -ήδικο is etymologically correct and in harmony with the masculine, and very frequent (Yes at Holton, yes at Warbuton schoolbook, yes Babiniotis). And yes, you may use it as first option. (by the way, I have seen ξανθομάλλης & κοκκινομύτης Grreat work!)

Still, the -ίδικο is a common simpilified spelling, as many are (-τζής adjectives in DSMG spelling) I have chosen this as first option, but it was a 50-50 thing. As a general rule, i follow the simplified versions, expecting them to be more frequent in the future decades (but , one never knows)...

Most dictionaries describe such words as nouns. The neuter and the adjectival role is arbitrary. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

PS I forgot: same double spellings for -ίδικος@DMSG], -ήδικος in the above dictionaries. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much @Sarri.greek — Saltmarsh^🢃 10:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I added at el:πλακατζής both -ίδικο & -ήδικο because of your methodical approach, @Saltmarsh. Ι re-thought about it. Never mind Babin dict, but it is the children's schoolbook that worried me: we cannot ignore it by just adding a note, when thousands of students are taught -ήδικο.

Ι cannot remember why i chose πλακατζής instead of the μερακλής. Another candidate is καβγατζής (quarrelling all the time)

I admire your recent work for adjectives, and your detailed sources at e.g. Template:el-decl-adj-ός-ή-ό. I presume they will be added at the appendix too: such copious work! I shall try to check el & en together. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:26, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek — I had imagined that, with the slow change of language,  η  might be giving way to  ι . Obviously not so here. — The changes to the appendix have already started — resolution: I really shoudl try and finish one job before starting another! — Saltmarsh^🢃 15:46, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, philologists insist on -ήδ- but people write -ίδ It is simpler. Ι have never wrote -ήδικος... DSMG which holds a progressive attitude, gives -ίδικος. By the way, thanks for adding the table at αγία. I added it at el. too. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Adjectives in …ι-ός / …-ιός

@Sarri.greek There seems to be some disagreement between sources over the endings of some words ending in «ιός», and therefore their declension. For example: is it «δεξι-ός» (Bambi) or «δεξ-ιός» (Mandala/Biki). Is this a matter of pronunciation/synizesis? Is there a safe default where there are differences of opinion? — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:24, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh δεξιός: The stem (etymology) is δεξι- < *δεξι-Ϝός and there was also a mycenaean name related. {{R:Babiniotis 2010}}. It has many derivatives. Also, it is tranformed into δεξής with δεξ(ιός)+ής, where you see a metaplasm with the -ιός detached, for -ής to take its place. The suffix -ιός (also the suffix -ιος) have many senses, mainly patridonymics. Not all adj of the category -ός-ά-ό end in -ιός. E.g. μακρός (long, form of μακρύς) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek so do we have:

μακρύς, -ιά, -ύ
μακρός, -ά, -ό
μακριός, -ιά, -ιό (from Μανδαλά - pocket edn. - others have βλ. μακρύς)

and is

μακριός, -ιή, -ιό (from Βικιλεξικό) 

an oversight? Thank you (I cannot say this often enough!) — Saltmarsh^🢃 15:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh,

_μακριός, μακριά^{-ιή probably a mistake} μακριό (Bab2002 just has a redirect to μακρύς) is very colloquial. (Of this colloquial form, we see a genitive 'μακριού' at the declension of μακρύς, and other forms with -ι-)

_ μακρός, μακρά, μακρό is ancient. In modern gr. it is used for durations. A macron vowel, a μακρά disucssion or debate.

_ and μακρύς, μακριά, μακρύ is the usual one. lang for distances. μακρύς δρόμος (road), μακριά μαλλιά (long hair). ++ also for durations... Many definitions there. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:24, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

εκ των υστέρων

@Sarri.greek It's a beautiful sunny day here and the daffodils and primroses are in flower - that is certain - but I might be going beyond my competance! 'Υστέρων' - can I assume that this comes from "old Greek" when things were not quite so regular? And I hope that all is well with you!! — Saltmarsh^🢃 12:06, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, snow (!) and low temperature here! freezing (today a bit better) Yes it is an expression. I' ll check my books! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

πλαγιάζω

@Sarri.greek You don't neet to bother too much about the previous point.

I'm doing another tranch of verb forms in the appendix. Μπαμμπι has the second (grammatical) verb heading for πλαγιάζω with a passive form as well as the different aorist. Are you happy with that? — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, @Saltmarsh it is the same verb with 2 pronunciations which affect the aorists πλάγιασα (pronounced like plάyasa) and πλαγίασα (like plyίasa) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:39, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Synonym line

@Sarri.greek I'm not sure that it is an improvement, but the synonym line is now hidden - but viewable with a "pull down" at the end of the translation line. Your left-hand margin should have a show/hide synonyms link, which should enable you to see them all the time. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, @Saltmarsh, I realise that, but i cannot find a parameter |show=1 here. In this example, there is no line-break or too many words, or Thesaurus or anything to hide. It hinders us from seeing the synonyms at a glance and it looks so secretive! Perhaps Benwing2 knows how. But never mind... Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:43, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I agree - and newbies will not realise that they can show them by default. A show= parameter would be most useful - giving the editr some control. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:51, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Γνωστός

Ο γνωστός τρολο-ασυναρτησιολόγος είναι παρών κι εδώ. Ξεκίνησα να αφαιρώ διάφορες κουλές λέξεις που βάζει ως μεταφράσεις. Έχετε το νου σας. ——Chalk19 (talk) 23:01, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Adjective inflection table

@Sarri.greek — {{el-decl-adj}} is more complicated than most. To remind myself about how it works I've drawn a table here. I will have a go at producing a vertical one for long words in a few days time — I am just finishing the latest of the verb appendices. — Saltmarsh^🢃 09:02, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. My teacher! I see your trials for adj. talbe. Have you considered a vertical structure for all? (plural uner singular with a title-line in between?) It is a hide/show anyway, so, it would not matter how long it is. Probably, you do not like it very much, I guess. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I know that some people use a mobile phone (mine's too old to do it). But when I look at web pages on a tablet I nearly always use a landscape layout, and that's the natural for a PC. I like to get as much on the screen as possible which means a horizontal layout. Even a word like αγγειοδιασταλτικός almost fits on the screen. Vertical compression is also why I prefer {{uxi}} to {{ux}}.

How do you view things? — Saltmarsh^🢃 18:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, like teacher, the student's mobile is archaic too. Never used it.

I see your point, how nice of you to think of the more tech-progressed :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:19, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek If you have been watching what I have been doing: I need a clear mind to make changes - so it's not ready to go yet. Tomorrow! — Saltmarsh^🢃 09:25, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I think that it works now. Setting parameter long= (any value will do) will give the long table (see αγγειοδιασταλτικός). Are there any adjectives with long -τερος/-τατος forms? Please let me know if you spot any errors. cheers — Saltmarsh^🢃 13:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, it looks great. The longest ones, usually in Participles category (they never have monolectic degrees, only periphrastic provided they make sense). I have not spent much time with adjectives yet, and I do not know the category well. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 03:22, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Sarri.greek I shall have to look at this later, but:

(1). looking at the template it should (I think) print, at the bottom of the comparative forms, something like:

relative superlative: ο + comparative forms (eg "ο ομορφότερος", etc)

(2). the manually settable "posnote" & "docnote" should appear respectively below the "positive" and "degrees of comparison" windows.

(2) appears to be working. For some reason (1) is not! I will investgate.

Question: should this note be under the editor's control with: (a) the default note above (b) some other note, or (c) suppressed altogether, like the "nopio" falg operates? — Saltmarsh^🢃 10:32, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh I am not sure of what the question is. (what is 1 and what is 2? what is falg?)

1 = adjective.full (+degrees) e.g. όμορφος Option: Suppose it is alone, without degrees. The degrees could be displayed at the headword line as

degrees of comparison: ομορφότερος (omorfóteros), ομορφότατος (omorfótatos). Because with the new decision [need the link for vote here], comparatives and superlatives are treated as Adjectives which are Comparative, not as mere forms of... But, if you wish their declension to appear too, as they do now:

• I propose notes, for editor's use: |note= (for positive) |compnote= (for comp) and |supernote= (for superlative)
• Progammer's standard notes would be:
  • for adj.positive |nopio or |pio (The πιο comparative is NOT called relative, it is just periphrastic)
    

    It forms periphrastic comparative with πιο (pio) + positive forms ("more ...")
    It forms relative superlative with definite article + πιο (pio) + positive forms ("the most ...")

  • under comparative |opio

    Also, periphrastic comparative: πιο (pio) + positive forms ("more ...)
    It forms relative superlative with definite article + comparative forms ("the most...")

  • under superlative |opio-super

    Sense of absolute superlative: "a most ..."
    The relative superlative is formed with definite article + comparative forms ("the most ...)

But all these are grammar notes (could be in an appendix). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek It's not easy discussing this sort of thing this way - particularly if I produce typos like falg (= flag, like the nopio flag)!

• I have produced the table as it is and would rather not make any major changes. Addressing more than one thing at a time leads to confusion (sorry :-). We should talk about one thing at a time - the top "positive" table first and refer to όμορφος (ómorfos) when necessary.
• The terms "comparative" and "relative superlative" are as used by Holton, et al. Comparative: "πιο δύσκολος" (more difficult). Relative superlative: "ο πιο έξυπνος" = "εξυπνότερος" (the cleverest). I think that Wiktionary should try to be accessible — "periphrastic" would make it less so. (I had been editing here for some time before I came across the word, and had to look it up - I thought I was reasonably well educated).
• But: comparative" and "relative superlative" could be linked to an appendix entry for futher information. We have the Greek glossary Wiktionary:About Greek/Glossary.
• Can we can leave the "Degrees of …" table for later?

— Saltmarsh^🢃 06:33, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Usage notes

@Saltmarsh, why not a note at Usage notes or better at an Appendix? Why get into giving grammar notes in table? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

clever & more clever

@Saltmarsh, what is the term for the comparatatives: 2-word 'more clever' versus the one-word cleverer? It is exactly the same for greek. But I do not know the English terms, so I used (above) the periphrastic (sorry for that) = many words and monolectic = one word. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:27, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Yes. As you say, the English comparatives are cleverer and more clever - monoletic and periphrastic forms. If I had to (at the age of 12 say) I would have said that "more clever" was the two-word form. Grammarians need to have a technical term, I didn't then - and scarcely do now. So, with limited space in the table, terms like "periphrastic" belong in the background, ie in the appendix. — Saltmarsh^🢃 12:00, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Labeling inflected forms

You asked whether things like τίτλου (títlou) should be labeled Koine. I don't think that's necessary, as long as τίτλος itself is labeled Koine. I'd only label an inflected form as a certain dialect if it contains an ending or other morpheme that's found in that dialect but not in standard Attic/Koine. So I would label things like ἀνθρώποιο or ἀνθρώποισι "Epic" or "Ionic", because -οιο is a distinctly Epic ending and -οισι is a distinctly Ionic ending. But -ου is not distinctly Koine, it's just the normal ending. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:25, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, Thank you @Mahagaja.

By the way, et el.wikt, Koine (el:Κατηγορία:Ελληνιστική κοινή 300bce to 600CE) is now a hosted language under Ancient for words created during that period: with all categories being changed gradually, so that we can have some statistics in the future. Plus a separate Cat for Hellnistic senses of otherwise ancient words. Koine is a very important period for the formation of Modern. 600-1699 is Mediaeval. And Modern 1700-today. (Also separated, New Latin: all the contemporary scientific terms do not appear anymore at the Latin index).

Again, thank you for all your support! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 20:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

We do have CAT:Koine Greek here at en-wikt as well, but I don't know how reliably maintained it is. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:15, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja By 'hosted' I mean that the two indices of lemmata are separated. e.g. κοινή has separate Categories for PartOfSpeech and all topics and other labels. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 20:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see; you mean it's treated as a separate language rather than as a variety of Ancient Greek. I doubt people would agree to that here. I'd be opposed to it myself. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja, We do not mean 'separate' as in 'separate language', which is why every Koine Category is placed IN the corresponding Ancient Category with an asterisc. We just need to know what words appeared after Aristotle. Also, it extends to 6th century, which makes it a longer period than CAT:Koine Greek here (300bce-300ce). So, it is more of a technical manoeuvre for statistical purposes for the late antiquity phase. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 20:52, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Your recent alerts

@Sarri.greek — Καλή εργατική Πρωτομαγιά (καθυστερημένα) - ελπίζω να είσαι καλά σήμερα. I've noted your recent alerts and will contnue below in a while. — Saltmarsh^🢃 09:41, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek — It was a general principal with the noun declension templates (unintentional at the time) that they were simple with no arguments other than the noun's stems and any possible notes. So I will create a new template to suit ημιώροφος. I looked (googlewise) at other simlar nouns (ανθύπατος & κέφαλος) to find if there were others with absent proparoxytone gen-pl forms. In fact they all have this deficit with «ανθύπατος» having very few. But «ημιώροφος» does have these forms, before I make the new template - I ask "do we need one?" — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:05, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Dear guru!! @Saltmarsh, The accent at -ος nouns is terribly 'anarchic', to use your term. They have all the declension forms as in noun decl examples @DSMG plus some more contemporary ones (post 1990s).

The one will full double types is O20a@DSMG=υπόκοσμος, en.wikt=μέτοικος, el.wikt=el:καρδινάλιος.

The one with only proparoxytone modern persistent accent endings is O20@DSMG=αντίλαλος, en.wikt=καλόγερος, el.wikt=el:αντίλαλος.

The one with only paroxytone formal recessive accents is O19@DSMG=άγγελος, en.wikt=άνθρωπος, el.wikt=el:άνθρωπος.

Between these two, there are all kinds of variations (as in el:Πρότυπο:ουσιαστικά -ος (νέα ελληνικά)). The variations for each noun may change in the following years, as the persistent accent becomes more and more common.

About searching at google. Please note, that unlike English books and texts, Greek texts, especially the great literature, is NOT scanned and not found at google because of copyright. Do not be alarmed if you cannot find some older forms. We necessarily include the forms given at {{R:DSMG}} & {{R:Babiniotis 2002}}, also Holton.Grammar, plus well documented newer paroxytone endings from google. So, your ανθύπατος and κέφαλος have correct declensions at the moment: (O20a) like μέτοικος.

Note, that the feminines -ος (also -ας) slightly differ. e.g. ψευδομάρτυρας genitive.singular for masculine is double (του ψευδομάρτυρα & formal {του ψευδομάρτυρος}), but genitive.singular feminine can only be της ψευδομάρτυρος, while a 'colloquial' fem.gen.‑α is not yet used for such learned words.

The non stable feminine genitive singular is found in many common.gender nouns (characteristic ταμίας) At Appendix.commongender.nouns@el.wikt there is again and again the note αστάθεια:instability. In a couple of generations, they may become less unstable.

The conclusion might be, that it is inevitable to have a wide variety of exceptions to decl.{{el-nM-ος-οι-3b}}=άνθρωπος and the similar. You might consider templates for commond gender e.g. Template:el-nMF-ος-ος-... Template:el-nMF-ας-ες-.... For their variations, an easy way out would be a Template:el-nMF-ος-οι-variations?, Template:el-nMF-ας-ες-variations? or some kind of umbrella.category for all of them, to avoid too many subcategories. PS. I have not checked all category members at el.wiktionary, so, please, do not take as correct the pages there. People add declentions without checking... and I am too exhausted to correct everything. Hopefully, some editors will do that in the future.

By the way, I am going through Cat:Greek lemmas, (started from Ω, now doing Ψ, etc...) adding i.p.a. and inflectional forms, where needed). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Forgive - I have a bad back and am taking it easy, although I will add those extra el-nM… templates . We are off to Paxos in a couple of weeks (postponed 3 times since we first booked it in 2019!) so I don't want to be hors de combat then. Thanks for attending to the i.p.a. sections. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh! Have a very nice holiday. Take care of your back, of covid, Please send my love to F! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 05:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Sarri.greek: I see that you've been busy - here's hoping that you are well. We got home last Monday - while we were away my back got better (slowly) but we both got COVID combined with bad colds - so 5 days "confined to barracks". We could still go out for walks, back permitting! Never-the-less it was exceedingly good to see Greece - our landlady was very helpful when were couldn't do any shopping.
So no more excuses - I had better do some editing !! — Saltmarsh^🢃 10:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh !! ooooo my goodness. I am glad that you are well, but very sorry that you both had to go through such an experience! Nice to see you againg boss!!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 10:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Med grammar

Just found, @A. T. Galenitis, Texniths, check this, all 4 vols in one. biblioπαρουσίαση. Texnith μας!, also updating you for Talk:παπαγᾶς (Thanks to the excellent work of our new friend A. T. Galenitis, ) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 23:34, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your notification @Sarri.greek! It seems really interesting!-- Texniths (talk) 08:56, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes. @Texniths, I have to redo all med. approach at el.wikt (declensions quasi ancient, only strictly for formal, before 1100, not truly Med.). Need to study a lot. But, i expect, -a first thought- that the basic approach would be a section Κλιτικοί τύποι (Inflectional forms) with the attested forms listed according to quotations. e.g. el:κουτρούβιν ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

This is a brilliant find and very interesting read, thank you so much! Will study in time, I could probably create a few declension templates for gkm nouns based on this. A. T. Galenitis (talk) 14:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

στηρίζομαι

The definition reads "passive form of ω"...that's clearly wrong, right? Acolyte of Ice (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Did you miss this message or forget to reply or something? Reply when you can please. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 12:52, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

@Acolyte of Ice: Sarri.greek wouldn't be notified on this page since this is a talk page subpage. —Svārtava (t/u) • 13:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

So sorry @Acolyte of Ice I did not see this. And thank your for the correction (it's my copypaste's fault). Thank you @Svartava. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:15, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

about el:άγιο λείψανο

Hello Sarri.greek! I also thought that it would be a sum of parts, but it is a distinct lemma in Georgacas' dictionary. That's why I chose to make it a lemma.--Texniths (talk) 16:02, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

O! @Texniths, ok then, I pass. Thank you for link "άγιο λείψανο" - Georgakas, Demetrius, 1908-1990 (1960-2009) A Modern Greek-English Dictionary [MGED online, 2009. letter α only], Centre for the Greek language

By the way... I do not know why that pdf journal 1857 changed the title 'ο Πατεράγιος και ο Φιλάληθος' to φιλαλήθης. It looks supspicious. Also, etymology, is a revesal of combining forms, of αγιοπατέρας. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Yeah you are right but I guess the research for Vilaras' works wasn't in the same levels then as it is today. I will look for it though. Thanks for your excellent research on this word!-- Texniths (talk) 17:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Greek FWOTDs

Hi, do you know of any words in modern Greek and Ancient Greek that would be nice candidates for FWOTD? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 17:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo, I need to check all the previous ones; presuming you need new ones. I promise to go through lists. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 00:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Here is one, but needs +Ancient section, βαθμός (bathmós), relevant with bathmology (βαθμολογία In greek it means the result of exams... I do not know the English word...) Also, it means 'degree' for the hot summer days! useful for tourists... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 01:42, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

ἀποφάσεις

Hello Katerina Sarri. I apologise for the redundancy of my presentation of ἀποφάσεις. I based the entry on ἀποφάσεως, which is the same, mutatis mutandis. I'm new here, so I'm basing my editing on what I see in already-existing entries, but I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency, so I'm not sure what's correct and what isn't. Please feel free to correct my errors and to point me in the direction of any policies I flout in my ignorance. Thank you. Fruitless Forest (talk) 23:32, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The redundancy of my presentation of διαιροῖμεν was due to the same reason. Fruitless Forest (talk) 23:42, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

And regarding this, I used Q's "notes" parameter six times in the noun section for πρόοδος, so maybe try copying that syntax. Fruitless Forest (talk) 23:54, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fruitless Forest, Welcome to WTary. I enjoy reading your Fruitful edits! I see that you read Parmenides (!). Ancient Greek is not my lang.domain (I do Modern), but being a Greek, I can just edit a few little things. I am neither a philologist nor a linguist, so I always need to be patrolled for edits at the more serious Sections.

The style for ancient inflectional forms has been changed in previous years, so... most of the pages are old-style. I have the same problem: cannot find easily an updated model to copy‑paste from. I look around at e.g. Category:Ancient Greek noun forms making sure that the last edits are by the administrators @Erutuon, Mahagaja. There is a page User:Erutuon/Ancient Greek model pages, but it needs expanding with copypastesafe examples, for newcomers to use.

I see that you record all ref.Qs as in the dictionaries! very impressive. (à propos, for my use, I open a window with ΛΟΓΕΙΟΝ -very easy to swap from one dictionary to the other-, and has all the Abbreviations at Section About).

I do not understand how param |notes works at Module:Quotations. I wish I knew what goes on; it does not work in all cases. But I see a if forms = full... then, it allows notes to be visible at line1 as here. I presume that this kind of styling places notes and refs there, so that they be visible, not hidden in the quotation hide/show ++ OK, it works, thatnk you.

Ι look forward to your edits! Happy summer, «καλό (kaló) καλοκαίρι (kalokaíri)», ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 01:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Χαῖρε ὦ Αἰκατερίνη. Thank you for pointing me toward ΛΟΓΕΙΟΝ and User:Erutuon/Ancient Greek model pages; I will certainly make use of both. I think it's important to include quotations, since that's the evidence that a word's real, and otherwise a reader has no way of knowing whether something's just made up; on a wiki, there's always the possibility that that's exactly what someone's done. Thanks for your help. Fruitless Forest (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

διαιρέω, διαιρῆν, διαιροῖμεν

Χαῖρε Ὦκατερίνη. Responding to this, "dor" stands for "Doric"; at the end of the entry for διαιρέω in Le Grand Bailly, it gives the Doric present active infinitive form διαιρῆν, citing "T.Loc. 101" (Timaeus of Locri), whom I've also cited in our entry for διαιρῆν, bearing in mind what User:Mahagaja wrote in this edit summary (διαιρῆν is "an irregular form whose existence might be doubted by others"). You might have seen the French entry I wrote for dor., which is an abbreviation of dorien, which is the French equivalent of the English Doric. "AI" stands for "active infinitive". Regarding these edits, if you look at the second conjugation table in διαιρέω (the one with the title "Present: δῐαιρῶ, δῐαιροῦμαι (Contracted)"), you'll see it gives the two forms δῐαιροῖμεν and δῐαιροίημεν, in case that matters. Perseus's Greek Word Study Tool calls διαιροῖμεν the "verb 1st pl pres opt act" form of διαίρω, which was the reason for my original error, now corrected thanks to the first conjugation table in διαίρω. Do you know how to change the voice displayed in a conjugation table (I refer to my problem with the second future conjugation table here), perchance? Fruitless Forest (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fruitless Forest, thank you for all your effort to explain your sources -but I can see the forms at LOGEION especially DGE and Bailly Also, I am familiar with abbreviations (from About and DGE excellent abbr.lists) -. Because i know so little ancient greek (Secondary level school 3 years and University 4 years, but not major: I am not a classic philologist), i sometimes add inner.comments, because I would like a second opionion/a review by an expert.

I am very suspicious of autogenerated tables, especially dialectal, that's all .. Perseus Word Tool is not reliable all the time.

Plus, I opt for inflectional form pages including more helpful information. Also, quotations for verifying which form is attested and which one is not.

Are you greek? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 04:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

++I do not understand what you wish to be written here++>> the voice displayed in a conjugation table (I refer to my problem with the second future conjugation table here), ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 04:13, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

++ PS Dorian: I do not see anything else except this one infinitive διαιρῆν which is contracted and would correspond to a contracted conjugation. It does not exist at αἱρέω= αἱρέω@LOGEION

No, I'm not Greek. I am interested in language generally, and ancient languages especially. Διαιρῆν may be the only attested specifically Doric form. I had to specify it with |AI=δῐαιρῆν because T:grc-conj automatically generated the form δῐαιρεῖν (diaireîn) (as you can see here), and I couldn't just replace that form in the Attic table, since it's also attested (even the uncontracted διαιρέειν comes up in a Herodotean lexicon, but it's unclear whether Herodotus himself used it, or whether the lexicographer in question simply chose to use that form as the verb's lemma). My aim was to ensure that every attested form was accounted for by those tables, which I think I managed; of course, since those tables have no blanks, it is inevitable that at least some (and perhaps most) of the forms they list aren't actually attested. I don't think that's too much of a problem, although it would be nice to be able to indicate which ones actually exist and which ones are conjectural regular formations. As long as only the attested forms get entries, I think that should be OK. I applaud your endeavours to improve entries for non-lemmata. Regarding my question: If you take a look at the second future-tense conjugation table (the seventh conjugation table overall) in the entry for διαιρέω (the one with the title "Future: δῐελοῦμαι (passive, Koine, contracted)"), you'll see that it says "middle" in a pink box on the far left; I don't know how to change that to say "passive", which is what I want it to say. Fruitless Forest (talk) 21:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fruitless Forest! you are so clever!! learnt so quickly all these tricky templates! I have never edited irregular verbs; I only do simple copypastes. When you need assistance, you may write [[User:Xxxx|Xxxx]] at the Edit box, and add a question next to the conjugation <!-- ... -->. The administrators for Anc.Gr are Erutuon and Mahagaja, but since it is summer, it is possible that they might be on vacation. JohnC5 is a bit busy at this time. ObsequiousNewt and Atelaes are sadly inactive for a long time. You may also use {{attn}} but that Category has hundreds of unsolved cases; i don't think they will be fixed in the near future.

I did not know διελοῦμαι as passive. I can see the Bailly2020: Pass. fut. réc.[ent] διελοῦμαι, DH. 4, 60. I do not know if they mean this: διελόμενος at Dion.Halic@scaife. I hope you find your answers! Good luck! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 23:32, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello again. I found myself thinking about what ObsequiousNewt wrote on her user page ("I'm not really inclined to work on Wiktionary. I worked in Ancient Greek on the pointless task of transcribing entries from a better source in nearly every respect, to a worse one. I'm not a fan of the templates or the votes either, but that was the main reason. I've found much more worthwhile and productive things to take up my time."). It's true that Λογεῖον is a very good source, and mere transcription probably isn't worth the effort. I think my focus shall need to be on adding content that doesn't just reinvent that well-oiled wheel. Resolving disagreements between authorities might be part of that. For example, I can see that Bailly and LSJ disagree about διελεῖται (the form of διελοῦμαι that's actually attested; see Citations:διαιρέω); Bailly calls it passive, whereas LSJ calls it middle and glosses it "interpret" (also citing a present mediopassive participle in that sense). However, LSJ also quote τέρας and δημεῖον in connexion with its citations of Dionysij Halicarnassei Ῥωμαϊκὴ Αρχαιολογία, and yet the latter of those words appears nowhere (as far as I can see) in either 4.10 or 9.6 of that work, so I don't know what's going on with that; moreover, according to Pape, δημεῖον is a falsa lectio of δήμιον (dḗmion, “the sovereign people”) appearing in C.H. Hermann's 1850s edition of Plato's Republic (Wikisource has δημίῳ there), so why ever would LSJ cite an error? It's all very strange; I wonder if it might be a copyright trap. Re Bailly's citation "DH. 4, 60" ("D.H.4.60" in LSJ), when Dionysius Halicarnasseus is cited by them sine opere, they're citing his Ῥωμαϊκὴ Αρχαιολογία; that use of διελόμενος you found would, I think, be cited "D.H.Dem.33" by LSJ and "DH. Dem. 33" by Bailly. Finally, it's nice of you to call me clever, but I don't think you still would if you saw all my draft mistakes! It's only because of my liberal use of the "Show preview" button that you're not privy to them. My ignorance of T:inflection of when I created ἐσχάτης and my addition of a quotation from Dionysij Halicarnassei Ῥωμαϊκὴ Αρχαιολογία 10.32 (when I misunderstood Bailly's citations as referring to volume and page, rather than book and chapter) to Citations:διαιρέω are two things that evidence my errors. It's only thanks to all the categories and helpful documentation here that I don't publish many more mistakes. Fruitless Forest (talk) 18:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

That discussion

Dear @Texniths. Sorry to bother you again, and congratulations for your excellent work. The usual declension.notes in such cases: at the form ...χίδης is παρατήρηση=Συγκρίνετε με την κλίση του [[σπασαρχίδας]]. and a similar note at the ...ίδας page is παρατήρηση=Συγκρίνετε με την κλίση του ...ίδης. All this could have been easily crosschecked at DSMG (even if it does not have the specific lemma) where a similar argot word like κασίδης is O11=decl.μανάβης (as you very well written) and a search %ίδας% would give e.g. ατσίδας Ο2=declension.αγώνας, without any απορία left about the difference of the two gen.pl. Also, such discussions are usually placed at the lemmaTalk, as in now corrected, and gen. forms lemmatized.
Apart from that, the quotations mentioned are very nice and implement the criteria for this lemma.
Allow me a soliloquy explanation, as apology, for writing to you here: My known opinion about quotations, is as according to en.wikt policy here and here "use in permanently recorded media" and "from dateable printed sources. Printed works which have been digitized and hosted on sites like Google Books, indexes of periodicals,..." also stated at el here. This printed or permanent part of the rule is being ignored very frequently, usually by wikipedians who operate in a very different way, with my corrections reverted. No administrator has intervened (I am not in the habit of re‑reverting to my own edits). There could have been a special, monitoring Category for recent words like Category:Hot words, but I believe that noone is going to vote for it. Finally, since this & that, I think I have no place there. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:00, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thanks for your kind words, and thanks for your advice on using the DSMG. As for the rest I can easily understand your concern, but I don't think you should quit from el.wikt. Behaviors from some users (including me) can be rude or not kind at some times. Though I believe and support that everything can be solved through a productive discussion. There is a lot of work to be done, and this is only achieved through collaboration of experienced and willing users. I hope your opinion will be changed!-- Texniths (talk) 10:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Texniths, you are a gentleman and always calm and wise, thank you for you advice and kind words. In wiktionaries, there are often vivid discussions, but nothing like wikipedias. We are not accustomed to that style. After all, my home login is here! See you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

ΛΟΓΕΙΟΝ

@Corfurian, about LOGEION = λογεῖον https://logeion.uchicago.edu/λογεῖον that is the λογείο του θεάτρου. With -εῖον=-είο like σχολείο. The λόγιον is the neutral of λόγιος, λογία, λόγιον, with -ιος also substantivized as λόγιον.

PS. Also, compare -είος, -α, -ο@DSMG to -ιος, -ία, -ιο Have a verb nice summer!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 10:00, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Πλήθων

How did I do regarding the entry Πλήθων?

How could it be improved? Apisite (talk) 08:53, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek My apologies for not pinging you. Apisite (talk) 09:05, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Apisite! The lexicographic interst for this name is: what it means, the etymology of the word. I do not have a dictionary for etymologies of proper nouns to verify what is generally known (a ref would be needed):

ancient πλήθων, participle active present of πλήθω (plḗthō), was the translation im Ancient Greek of the surname (Mediaeval surname) of Γεώργιος (his given name) Γεμιστός < γεμιστός (gemistós, “stuffed, filled”) and he created it himself in analogy to Πλάτων (Plátōn), related to word πλατύς (platús). So, it is a coinage, a pseudonym?penname? -i do not know how en.wikt categorizes those- and it is a kind of mediaeval semantic loan? from ancient greek.

Modern-ending variant of the word, is Πλήθωνας ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Is the IPA pronunciation okay as it is? --Apisite (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Apisite, ipa perfect (we usually use /.../ but that s ok). My connection today is very slow, forgive me for not editing a bit: if i ever have a proper source for Πλήθων -not some unsourced greek encyclopedias- I will edit a bit. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I made a gloss definition for the word Plethon. What do you think of it? --Apisite (talk) 08:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure @Apisite, how such pseudonyms are marked in Eng., what templates are used etc (maybe better if you ask an editor that does English proper nouns). I am not sure of what hellenic means, it is Ancient Greek translation of his surname. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Basmati Rice in Greek

Regarding the entry γεμιστός, couldn't any Greek word for "fragrant" be used in place of "basmati" when it comes to rice? Apisite (talk) 06:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I forgot to ping you again! --Apisite (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Apisite! 'fragrant' rices are a category of rices. At the supermarket we buy packs with the title basmati (with latin letters), sometimes transcribed as μπασμάτι (basmáti). But there are many other kinds of fragrant rices -I know very little about cooking..., but I do buy basmati. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 07:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hionaki

Hello, @Χιονάκι, hope you speak English? I see your correct comment here about this typo. Sorry that I did not respond immediately. I see that you were blocked over there, perhaps some of your comments or questions were not very well intended or a bit silly? But others, were very useful and correct. If you like to continue with useful edits, and if you understand English, you may edit here at en.wiktionary (atmosphere here is so nice!), but please, under the condition: no 'questions' at lemma.Talks, no 'comments' at EditBox, and you can ping me from your Talk page: I will provide you with examples as copypaste models. For a start, for template {{IPA}}.
If you like, you may continue with your current username, or change to some other with Latin letters. Happy summer. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 17:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Modern Greek etymological categories

@Benwing2, Lambiam, PUC, sorry to bother you. Normally i refrain from doing Modern Greek etymologies, but often, i edit some existing ones. Here is my problem: The structure needed for etymological Categories for greek as recorded in greek dictionaries, is as follows

1. Category:Greek inherited terms
2. Category:Greek borrowings (as in: all kinds of borrowings) + umbrella Category:Greek terms derived from other languages
   1. Category:Greek borrowed terms: Here some other term like Category:Greek loanwrords is needed for the distinction with the above general category. They are direct, λαϊκός (laïkós, “of the people, of the masses, i do not know the linguistic English term”)=[-learned], acoustical/aural, oral, spontaneous loanwords from speaker to speaker of different languages.
   2. Category:Greek learned borrowings or loanwords. The opposite of the above.
      At the moment, it is misplaced under direct Borrowed terms.
      • Here, the internal lbors are called diachronic learned borrowed terms, a huge category from Ancient Greek, much larger than the Inherited cateogry. At the moment, all lbors go under the category Borrowed terms, a very awkward leap. (I use {der} to prevent it)
   3. Category:Greek unadapted borrowings learned or λαϊκά
   4. Category:Greek twice-borrowed terms the αντιδάνειο (“a greek word, borrowed externally, which comes back to Greek”)
      This may be [+leanred] or rarely [-learned], so we place it separately.
   5. Category:Greek reborrowings (borrow twice from a word; this is covered from Category:Greek doublets, I understand)
   6. Category:Greek calques
   7. Category:Greek ...freely translated terms ? (The Greek term is απόδοση (apódosi, “rendering, free translation”) and is different from a calque.It is a term used in all greek dictionaries.
   8. Category:Greek semantic loans
   9. Category:Greek orthographic borrowings
   10. Category:Greek terms transliterated from other languages (too long title!, Greek transliterated terms?
   11. and some more rare mechanisms

Finally, the Category:Greek terms derived from... which also serves as an umbrella Cat. for all, both Inheritances and Borrowings
So, two problems
a) a minor problem: not having Category:Greek freely translated terms, or a more appopriate term used in English
and b) Trying to detach various borrowings from the strict.loanword.Category and put them under a generalCat.Borrowings. Probably, for en.wikt, or for some languages, such a distinction is not important. As a characterisation, [+/-learned] may apply to all kinds of formations (no template used for mentioning it in the text). But the bor-lbor categories it is a very crucial matter. Is such a Greek-specific-categorisation possible here at en.wikt? (it is already used at el.wikt, e.g. at Borrowings) Thank you for your patience. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:14, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Labels

We don't distinguish between words that are unique to one variety of a language and words that are used in multiple varieties but have different senses. It's the same with English: CAT:American English includes both words that are unique to American English (like french fries) and words that have different meanings in American English and British English (like chip). —Mahāgaja · talk 18:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja thank you for your prompt responses, every time I ask something like the Koine question here! Frankly, i think that it is a BIG difference, for all languages. Perhaps you would consider such a proposal for label {lb||XXX sense}, some day. I would like as a user of the dictionary to view in the Category:Koine Greek or Amercian English, all their neologisms, their creations, plus a Cat included there, of the expansions of sense for already existing words.

À propos, the periodization of Koine could be stretched up to Justinian c600, which is the beginning of Mediaeval. And that 'Byzantine' term (historical, not linguistic) could be stretched as 'Medieval' up to late Med., that is up to 1699, which is now the usual periodization for Vulgar Med. Especially, after the publication the monumental 4 volumes of the Cambridge Grammar of Med & Early Greek (2019) and the 22nd volume of {{R:Kriaras Medieval2}}. The early Med is like Koine and is covered by {{R:LBG}}. Just a thought for en.wikt. The decisions for the greek language periodizaation were taken during the very first days of en.wikt... Perhaps, a revisiting, could be considered by Atelaes, ObsequiousNewt, JohnC5, Erutuon, and of course, by you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

There are some labels that do make such a distinction: {{lb|en|rare}} will put a term into CAT:English terms with rare senses, while {{tlb|en|rare}} will put a term into CAT:English rare terms. But dialect labels don't do that; there's no difference between {{lb|en|American}} and {{tlb|en|American}}. Maybe you could start a discussion at the Beer Parlour about using {{lb}} and {{tlb}} for dialect labels, so that we could distinguish between CAT:English terms with American senses and CAT:American English terms and between CAT:Ancient Greek terms with Byzantine senses and CAT:Byzantine Greek terms. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

γαλεάσσα

Καλησπέρα. Την έχει ο Δημητράκος ως μεσαιωνική. Την χρησιμοποιούν και μερικές παλιές εγκυκλοπαίδειες. Αν δεν εντοπίζεται διαδικτυακά χρήση σε μεσαιωνικά κείμενα, τότε έχουμε δυο τινά: είτε υπάρχει χρήση, αλλά δεν έχουν ψηφιοποιηθεί οι πηγές, είτε δεν υπήρχε χρήση αυτού του τύπου και είναι πρόσφατη "εξευγενισμένη" μορφή των λεξικογράφων. ——Chalk19 (talk) 16:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

!!! ΑΑΑ @Chalk19, τι βλάκας που είμαι. Στην Εισαγωγή του λεξικού του (και τοχω σημειώσει στο φάκελό του) λέει ο Δημητράκος ? ΔΕ ΛΕΕΙ

μσν = 7ος -1800 ! = Μπαμπ.2002.

Αρα, μιλάει για κείμενα υστερότερα. Όπου γίνονται δεκτά και τα 'φτιαχτά μεταφραστικά δάνεια' των λημματοποιήσεων των παμπάλαιων λεξικών, που αντιγράφτηκαν και στα σύγχρονα λεξικά.... Πάντως, αν βρούμε και o! I forgot we are in en.wikt. If we can also find a text, any text of the 1800s, it would be swell. Thank you!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Οπότε, μάλλον "καθαρολογικό" δημιούργημα. ——Chalk19 (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Chalk19 I'm terribly sorry: i was looking at folder Babiniotis. Dimitrakos DOES NOT give any centuries for his periodization neither at his Preface, nor at his abbreviation list for μτγν and for μσν. My mistake. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:13, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Absence

@Sarri.greek Υεια BT (British Telecom that was) has left us without a landline for 2 weeks now and my 'old' PC died. So I will be absent for a while. — Saltmarsh^🢃 08:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

ο!! @Saltmarsh, thank you for telling me... Patience!! I had the same problem here when they had put Gsomthing... I am finishing some hectic job at el wikt now. See you! Hello to F! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

αποφώλιον

@Sarri.greek My Greek dictionaries define αποφώλιον as a monster/dreadful man — Babiniotis more specifically as a criminal guilty of some dreadful offence. Βικιλεξικό seems to have what, in English, we would call a "china egg" which would be used with a broody hen. Can you help please. — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:55, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh! Nice to see you back, and with an interesting lemma αποφώλιος (apofólios) (hideous -the Georgakas lemma-) only in the dated expression αποφώλιον τέρας (apofólion téras) (the Babiniotis lemma). This comes from ancient greek via katharevousa.

Completely unrelated etymologcially: αποφώλι n (apofóli, “nest egg”), also ref Georgakas. !!! I knew none of them. Thank you boss!!

PS. I corrected the el.wikt lemmata also. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 23:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Modern Greek etymology template

I'm sorry @Sarri.greek I can have little to add to the discussion elsewhere, I seldom add etymologies. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, @Saltmarsh. Me neither. But I can 'transfer' what I see at the etymol.section of {{R:DSMG}}, which is slightly different than en.wikt's structure of categories. But I always notify you about what I do! :). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Cheers @Sarri.greek — I'm afraid that once discussions here become long (tl;dr) with multiple participants I find it difficult to take part. They branch, and then branch again!! — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:24, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I just remembered - you asked about "unwieldy", I think that the more common word might be "clumsy". — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, thank you!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

τζιράρω/τζυράρω

καλό μήνα @sarri.greek — Bamb has τζυράρω and Biki has el:τζιράρω — but τζυράρω can't be found. Has Bamb misspelt or being pedantic? I assume they are the same word and does it mean "to circulate money/do business". — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh! Καλό μήνα, boss! Yes! hyperpendantic and this is one of the most laughed at proposed spellings by him, like his αγώρι instead of αγόρι (agóri, “boy”), just because he suddenly wished to write things as their etymological basis! We still write γύρος (gýros) with upsilon, but not the italian τζίρος (tzíros), even if it is twice.borrowed. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Αποστολή βιβλίων

@sarri.greek Αγαπητή κ. Κατερίνα Σαρρή, καλησπέρα σας.

Θα ήθελα να σας στείλω κάποιους τόμους των περιοδικών Ηπειρωτικό Ημερολόγιο και Πρεβεζάνικα Χρονικά που νομίζω θα φανούν χρήσιμα στις λημματογραφήσεις σας στο βικιλεξικό. Μπορείτε να μου στείλετε την ταχυδρομική σας διεύθυνση με μήνυμα στο ηλεκτρονικό μου ταχυδρομείο, ή εδώ εάν δεν σας απασχολεί να φαίνεται η ταχυδρομική σας διεύθυνση.

Με εκτίμηση Actia Nicopolis (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Actia Nicopolis, Thank you για την πληροφορία. Λυπάμαι, δε χρησιμοποιώ emails. / Sorry, I do not use any emails in wiktionaries, but I will keep in mind the bibliography mentioned. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@sarri.greek I am afraim I was missunderstood. I was asking for your postal address, so that we can send you the books by post. Not by email. Many thanks Actia Nicopolis (talk) 19:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Actia Nicopolis. Θα έχω υπ' όψιν μου τους τίτλους. Sorry, we do not use mail in wikt. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@sarri.greek This is fine Ms. Sarri. I will, thus, ask the publishers to post the volumes to @FocalPoint, who seems active in wiktionary, too. Whenever you would like to receive the volumes you could write to me, by pressing "Email this user" in the left column of my user page. Best wishes Actia Nicopolis (talk) 17:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Χρόνια πολλά !

@Sarri.greek — and congratulations on the amount of work you've done, especially on Βικι. I hadn't realised until I saw you total number of edits the other day. Hope you have a Good Day! — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:24, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, boss!!! @Saltmarsh, how could you notice the date!! and remember! By the way: most of those edits are semi-automatic corrections, corrections, and again corrections. I have done very little original work. And there is still a lot to correct. But that does not mean that I will neglect so much adding pronunciations and declensions here!!! I promise!! My love to F. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 07:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Unused declension template

@Sarri.greek Good afternoon! I notice that el-nM-ος-οι-3e is unused, its last inhabitant ημιώροφος was removed in September. I think those nouns now have double genitive forms in both the singular and plural. OK with you if I delete it? — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:39, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course @Saltmarsh, thank you for asking the pupil! I am partly away at this time, but will be back soon. Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:27, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Enjoy your time-off @Sarri.greek — Saltmarsh^🢃 19:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

@Sarri.greek It's good that you are back, I hope that you're well. This is just a note to say that {{el-noun}} has been changed to accommodate Category:Greek countable/uncountable nouns and Category:Greek usually uncountable nouns. I shall welcome any comments! — Saltmarsh^🢃 10:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Ο!! @Saltmarsh, and with the NEW in red! how nice :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 10:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, I love it; especially the ~ and the + (magic!). Only comment: I see a lot of common-gender (which is also the Greek term κοινού γένους), instead of 'mixed gender'. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Mmmm…… @Sarri.greek I just looked at my creation of ιατρός in January 2007 my headword line was «ιατρός (c)». At some point afterwards I was told that Greek didn't really have a common gender, but words like that were masculine and feminine - ie mixed. I probably didn't like to disagree and left it to others more qualified than me. — Saltmarsh^🢃 15:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, especially in Anc.Greek, there are some words, which simply have double genders, double declensions Category:Nouns with multiple genders by language and/or Category:Nouns with multiple declensions by language. By common gender, we traditionally mean sex (of living creatures). I do not really care how en.wikt calls all these. I just observed that the 'common-gender' Cat has many members. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 15:14, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Template talk:el-noun#Common gender nouns shows the discussion that put an end to common gender Greek nouns on wiktionary. Thinking back I used to respect Flyax's opinion and followed it. — Saltmarsh^🢃 15:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, yes, they are marked m-f. The term κοινού γένους (koinoú génous) comes from grammars (schoolbooks etc) for Ancient Greek. m-f is βουλευτής common gender.

m-f is λίθος (líthos) too, but it is not called 'common gender'; every gender for λίθος, has a slightly different meaning, they are independent from each other.

Our structure at el.wikt is Cat.with multiple genders > subcat.of common gender. Mixed μεικτός (meiktós), is a term that I have never seen in Greek ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 15:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

ιουδαϊσμός

Hi Sarri, wondering if you could check something: ιουδαϊσμός currently says it's derived via Latin, but various sources say the Latin itself is from Koine Ἰουδαϊσμός. Is the modern Greek actually from Latin or inherited? —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 11:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, @Al-Muqanna. Yes, it is an internal learned borrowing from Koine Ἰουδαϊσμός. I have updated ιουδαϊσμός +ref (and other refs cross-checked, but I did not add them, because they have no link). In general, only few words are directly inherited from Ancient Greek or Koine; most of them are revived as learned borrowings, marked at the {{R:DSMG}} as λόγ. < αρχ. (learned < ancient) or ελνστ (Hellenistic). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)