Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/kuni
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Chuterix in topic Etymology
Etymology
edit(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): The Southern Ryukyuan evidence allows us to reconstruct PJ *koni, and not **kuni, and I want to suggest a connection to Baekje 鞬 (*k(j)ə-n, “big, great”, also spelled variously as コニ or コ). I believe that the Japanese admired their wide country/land; here's an example from MYS.13.3236:
空見津 / 倭國 / 青丹吉 / 常山越而 / 山代之 / 管木之原 / 血速舊 / 于遅乃渡 / 隴屋之 / 阿後尼之原尾 / 千歳爾 / 闕事無 / 万歳爾 / 有通将得 / 山科之 / 石田之社之 / 須馬神爾 / 奴左取向而 / 吾者越徃 / 相坂山遠
- (too lazy to transliterate or translate...)
Chuterix (talk) 16:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Impossible. In the first place, vowel of 鞬 is o₂, not o₁ and never changes into u in Old Japanese. And Ryukyuan equivalents are totally borrowed from mainland. kuni originally means region/land/homeland, Ryukyuans already have *sima in that sense, the meaning as country/nation/state is relatively newer.
- This term seems to be originally a mainland specific compound which is something like *kó «粉, "powder" (露出形: 黄 *kói, "yellow")» + *núi «丹, "soil, especially red clay", (ryukyuan equivalent is *mi, indicating strange *mʲ/n shift)» → *kónúi, in the meaning of "land, clay". (btw I think to use -y in PJ is bad because it makes misunderstanding as if independent consonant *y can stands as a final consonant even it don't contribute any descendents and their inflections)
- If it were from PJ, the second vowel must dropped and turned to -N. It also can be *kuni as part of proper nouns; in Yonaguni, 与那国 yonaguni is /dunaN/, both of vowels have dropped off and shortened into /N/.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @荒巻モロゾフ IIRC Vovin reconstructs this vowel because it is deleted due to the law that consonant clusters must not exist in Japonic. Chuterix (talk) 20:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @荒巻モロゾフ P.S. *khunī would be expected in mainland (Nakijin) Kunigami. Chuterix (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- The uniformity of the Ryukyuan terms does suggest a later borrowing. Compare the variety of forms seen in the descendants of Proto-Japonic *konpo or *kora. For Proto-Japonic *konuy, all of the Ryukyuan terms are basically the same as mainland Japanese 国 (kuni). This would only happen if the term were a borrowing some time after the languages split apart. Were this an inheritance from the proto language, we would expect to see instead a similar degree of variance as we see with other terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Eirikr: This could happen in PJ *koruma (“car; wheel”). Chuterix (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Re: *koruma, I suspect you're basing that on the Ryukyuan terms. However, the uniformity of Ryukyuan terms again suggests a later borrowing, not an inheritance. This would mean that you're reconstructing a proto form based on what is likely a post-proto borrowing from mainland Japanese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah... Chuterix (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- Re: *koruma, I suspect you're basing that on the Ryukyuan terms. However, the uniformity of Ryukyuan terms again suggests a later borrowing, not an inheritance. This would mean that you're reconstructing a proto form based on what is likely a post-proto borrowing from mainland Japanese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Eirikr: This could happen in PJ *koruma (“car; wheel”). Chuterix (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- The uniformity of the Ryukyuan terms does suggest a later borrowing. Compare the variety of forms seen in the descendants of Proto-Japonic *konpo or *kora. For Proto-Japonic *konuy, all of the Ryukyuan terms are basically the same as mainland Japanese 国 (kuni). This would only happen if the term were a borrowing some time after the languages split apart. Were this an inheritance from the proto language, we would expect to see instead a similar degree of variance as we see with other terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @荒巻モロゾフ P.S. *khunī would be expected in mainland (Nakijin) Kunigami. Chuterix (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @荒巻モロゾフ IIRC Vovin reconstructs this vowel because it is deleted due to the law that consonant clusters must not exist in Japonic. Chuterix (talk) 20:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)