Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/təwə

Apophony

@Eirikr It does appear that PJ *təwə has a short form *tə, though I don't know if it is original. In any case I would consider a relationship with *tawa doubtful. Of course, a PJ *so can be reconstructed with the same meaning of "ten". Kwékwlos (talk) 10:54, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos, responding to your points --

• Re: OJP ⟨to₂⟩ (“ten”) and ⟨to₂wo⟩ (“ten”), the KDJ entry notes that the short form is a clipping of the longer form, and that it's used only in compounds.
• Re: /o/ ↔ /a/ alternation, we see that historically with 撓む (tawamu, “to bend”) also appearing with the readings tawomu and to₂womu, and 撓 (tawa, “a bend”) also appearing with the readings tawo and to₂wo. See also the KDJ entry for 撓, among other resources.

There are various other places in Japanese where we see what appears to be a similar /o/ ↔ /a/ alternation. See, for example, yama (山) vs. yomo (黄泉), or the roots hoso- (“narrow” on the inside, from one edge across to the other) and hasa- (“narrow” on the outside, between the edges of two things). Broadly speaking, where there are such pairs, the /o/ variants appear to retain senses of "inward, inside, inherent" and the /a/ variants seem to indicate "outward, outside, apparent".

• Re: OJP so, I see that 十 appears as a man'yōgana for either ⟨so₁⟩ or ⟨to₂⟩. ⟨so₁⟩ as the term 十 (so₁, “ten”) only appears in compounds, either as the first or second element, but never as a standalone. Meanwhile, 十 (to₂wo, “ten”) appears both as as standalone and in compounds. Considering the different vowel values, I don't think that 十 (so₁, “ten”) and 十 (to₂wo, “ten”) are related, etymologically speaking.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:17, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I see. But where's the source you mentioned earlier? Kwékwlos (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos, thanks for digging up a source. Things my side have been a bit ahoo due to the COVID situation. Was there any mention in what you've read about why Miller rejects this? Curious as to the reasoning. I may do some digging later. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, here, at http://altaica.ru/LIBRARY/Blazhek_Altaic_Languages_2019.pdf, page 276. Kwékwlos (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

This document should be amended as such.

Possibly cognate with pseudo-Goguryeo toponym 德 (tok).

Sources

@Kwékwlos Who and what is Ono (1970)? Chuterix (talk) 19:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Susumu Ono. The reference is "The Origin of the Japanese Language" (1970). Kwékwlos (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)