Reconstruction talk:Proto-West Germanic/brām

Bramble becoming broom, or broom bramble, or a more general meaning, or no relation

@Victar, Leasnam: How are we sure this meant bramble (Rubus) if all the descendants mean broom? Why have all direct descendants only the meaning “broom” (Cytisus) and only derived terms the meaning bramble (Rubus)? Are the blackberry-meaning words actually derived terms, or the same word here reconstructed with this ā vowel, if the languages who have this broom meaning suspiciously distinguish it by vocalism?

I have noticed we at our etymology for broom lacks meaning development. I found out the chronological order of meanings is that first came the plant meaning especially for Cytisus scoparius (syn. Genista scoparia), which, as its species epithet indicates to the Latin-learned, served to make besoms by binding its twigs together. Whereas any “bramble” sense is probably not attested in (Modern or Old) English, I looked into Bosworth/Toller and the OED (which does not have anything additional). And I have difficulties discerning the likeness between Cytisus scoparius, short of its vague spininess, which wouldn’t earn it the name of a thornbush: the dissimilarity of the plant seems to outweigh equation. Rather by comparison with furze and gorse it may be a thus separate, obscurer term, but still spread wider:

In Dutch, the prevailing form for the broom-plant is brem, also breem, braam still in the 19th century, perhaps secondarily, which potentially complicates the reconstruction.

And what’s the craic with the North Germanic blackberry designations? Victar has sidestepped them while moving Proto-Germanic to Proto-West Germanic. Fay Freak (talk) 01:29, 28 May 2021 (UTC)