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User talk:Fay Freak




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Again, welcome! PseudoSkull (talk) 05:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

It's good to see you back. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Welcome back, Pal. Per utramque cavernam 17:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Welcome back! —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 21:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, welcome back! (Sorry about my accidental rollback; I’ve reverted myself.) — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 11:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, welcome. --Vahag (talk) 16:38, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


Any sources that discuss the etymology? It's obviously related to the Greek and Hebrew forms, but I can't tell which way the borrowings went. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:07, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge Better ask @Profes.I., he apparently has better sources and perhaps he can say more about ταώς (taṓs). I don’t know what sources I miss, but I think he is from the Chicago Oriental Institute. Hey Profes.I., don’t forget to watch Category:Requests for expansion of etymologies in Arabic entries so we can write etymology stubs. Fay Freak (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Its a rather convoluted debate so I will just outline some facts to consider:
  • The earliest concrete references in Greek to the bird are found post-Persian conflict; Aristotle calls it a 'Persian Bird', Aristophanes uses them also despairingly as symbols of gaudy-dressed ambassadors, a jab perhaps also at the colorful foreign Persians.
  • τᾰών (taṓn), another word being glossed as 'peacock' was used prior, appearing even in Homer and Hesiod mean something like fair-dressed, beautifully adorned, birds in a general way for their colorful feathers, not inherently referring to a peacock. This gives it a potential to possibly not be a foreign loan, but rather derived from a precursor word that was then reapplied to a peacock in later times. ([1])
  • The Akkadian attestation of peacock is 𒀭𒄩𒉌𒄷 (Ha-ia), suggested to be named after the sound it makes, connected and written as the god linked to guarding the storehouses, keeping food supplies, perhaps the 'eyes' of its plumage linking it to a 'watcher' like in the Greek mythology. There is however a loanword from Sumerian 𒀉𒍗𒍑𒄷 (ti-uš, tius, tiuz, a bird) {[2]}, the general conception seems to be sudden in appearance, initially unseen, to swoop or come out of seemingly nowhere, to come upon quickly, to rush or dart, hence the speculated identity of an eagle or vulture. Perhaps instead a reference to the peacocks sudden opening of its plumage, being dazzling or darting up.
  • There is a Semitic root likely derived from the Sumerian loan found in the Hebrew and Aramaic verb טוּשׂ(ṭus, ṭūs, to fly, to rush, to dart, to swoop) {[3][4]} and in the Arabic ط س س(ṭ-s-s) meaning to strike suddenly, to smite, to be struck blind, to be blinded or to lose ones ability to think; hence the connection again to being dazzled; likewise Lane and others like J.G. Hava mention ط ش ش(ṭ-š-š) having the meaning of weakness in sight, to be faint.
Needless to say its very interesting and without definitive direction; the Greek could have borrowed the term from Akkadian through the Persian cultural bridging or perhaps from earlier borrowed constellation traditions; there however is a missing Persian term that would ease the mystery.
Additionally, it should be stated the whole connection தோகை (tōkai, plumage, peacock) is actually for another Hebrew term תוכי(túki, parrot, peacock) which developed semantically later from commentaries on verse 1 Kings 10:22 ([5]}; the reconstructed meaning found in many modern translation is that of baboon or monkey. --Profes.I. (talk)


You inserted {{taxlink}} in this entry, for which I thank you.

However, you did not insert the rank of the taxonomic name, "species" in this case. If you are going to verify the entry, please insert the rank.

Within {{taxlink}} you inserted "ver=180716". In this case I'd rather you hadn't. I check each new taxonomic name to see that whether is spelled correctly, whether there is a taxonomic name that supersedes it, and whether the rank of the name is correct. I don't expect others to do all that, as it can be time-consuming and has some idiosyncracies. OTOH, if you find that there is a Wikispecies entry for the taxon or that the Wikipedia article uses the taxonomic name, feel free to insert "ver=YYMMDD".

The most important thing from my perspective is that {{taxlink}} be used, because I track new entries that use it. DCDuring (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring Oh! I actually deliberated about if I should use it because if one uses the two-word form Genus species it is usually understood as species, so I thought that I have to write |2=species only when I use a species name alone. Fay Freak (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
For a general-purpose dictionary we can't assume that the user knows much more than a bare-minimum English vocabulary, certainly not much about taxonomy, however obvious it is after just a few encounters with taxa. The second parameter does not display; it categorizes and, sometimes in the case of one-part names, it disambiguates. Anyway, I'm happy that you use {{taxlink}}. There are certainly many taxonomic names that are worth entering into Wiktionary, especially the ones for macroflora and macrofauna, disease agents, newly discovered species, items of bizarre appearance, or unusual names, etc. DCDuring (talk) 21:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

What does |i= in diff mean? I don’t find a documentation. @DCDuring Fay Freak (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it should be in the documentation. It puts the displayed parameter in italics. That is relevant for genus and species names and various other subgeneric taxa and for all virus taxa. The display is not as precise as the display used in {{taxlink}}, but is good for almost all cases and not too bad for the others. DCDuring (talk) 23:13, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea how to get it into all the places it would have to be, especially since I don't know the scope of the modules that implement the italicization. I don't know how to find the relevant author of whatever the module might be. See User Talk:Rua. DCDuring (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
{{projectlink}} probably should contain more documentation. I see only convoluted links, too. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
It does not seem to be much promising to ask Rua for documentation, or? I think you have noticed she is avoiding this site for months now, or no? Well umm, she apparently left because she did things that she could not made be understood. Really sad. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
I've never had much luck. Some others did.
For the matter at hand, I'll jury-rig some documentation. In any event, you know what it means. DCDuring (talk) 00:11, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring {{desc}} should get |i=, right? For botanical terms descending as from لُوف(lūf), isatis or whatever. Fay Freak (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with this suggestion. --Victar (talk) 21:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I put italics to names of genera that are 'Translingual' descendants of terms. If {{desc}} doesn't do it and {{taxlink}} would be redundant, then I would bypass {{desc}} and use wikitext italics with {{l|mul}}. The point is that genus names are prescribed to appear in italics and most users follow the prescription. IOW, yes. DCDuring (talk) 23:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Ok, the case seems clear to me, @Rua, Erutuon. No exceptions to taxonomic names being in italics. I guess the function needs to be generalized to catch {{cog}} at least too, for once Beta vulgaris var. cicla is created we won’t link correctly from свёкла (svjókla), for example. (putting double ASCII apostrophes inside does not work.) Actually to every template adding a language name in front, because double ASCII apostrophes inside does not work and outside the template even the langname is capitalized. Theoretically also to other templates where the language name is not there, i.e. {{l}} and {{m}} the |i= is needed, because a module recognizes what parts need to be capitalized (not the part ”var.” and the like) if I guess right, it is just that we do not use them necessarily for Translingual but use normal Wiki links. I don’t think I am completely abusing Descendants and Etymology sections by mentioning taxonomical terms? It is just that linguists miss the whole field of taxonomical names as a research topic. Module:etymology/templates and {{desc}} need to be protected by the way. Fay Freak (talk) 23:39, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring, can you point me to a discussion where "most users" agreed to this convention of italicizing genus names in descendants list? --Victar (talk) 23:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
@Victar It is botanists’ convention. We adhere to it like we adhere to Unicode’s standards. Some things we cannot decide. Good that we do not need to think about everything but there are people like the Unicode Consortium or doing biological classification. Division of labour. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I understand that, I'm aware of the practice. I'm specifically talking about how descendants of a word are treated in a descendants lists. --Victar (talk) 23:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
@Victar I have intimated it already. “It is just that linguists miss the whole field of taxonomical names as a research topic.” People here are not likely to care, but those who deal with taxonomy … just a little thought for you: If you go to Wikispecies and ask everyone how we should treat taxonomic names also in these cases, what will they very likely answer? I claim, and I doubt you will tend to disagree, they will say unanimously: “Just make it italicized always, guys!” I. e. if we include those names at all. Fay Freak (talk) 00:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
That's you're argument, that we should ask what the guys at Wikispecies think? The descendants section section has to do with etymology, and etymologists, by in large, don't care about italicizing genus names. Those are the people I care for the opinions of and will base my practices upon. --Victar (talk) 00:11, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
At Wikispecies, Wikipedia, and Wikicommons they are careful to properly format taxonomic names. If etymologists don't care, then the appearance of italics in taxonomic descendants shouldn't matter to them. DCDuring (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, he gainsays himself already. “The” etymologists don’t even care about “genus names”, taxonomical names that is to say, as I said, hence they do not have the issue in mind, i. e. they do not mind.
@Victar: Can you point me to a discussion where users disagree to have taxonomical names in etymology sections? If we have them, we will format them as it beseems. You evidently do not care about them at all anyway. Also it’s very autistic not to look outside the editors of en.Wiktionary (necessarily you retreat to such argumentation, as you are too smart not to see that they will disrespect it). What will the world think of us if we won’t italicize taxonomic names with regularity? Something that will harm the en.Wiktionary brand, corroborating the notion that this project is all a joke like Wikipedia is, the editors pointing to interna instead of common sense or scientific practices and winning with it. You still haven’t said a single reason, not to speak one of a weight that unsettles, why you don’t want that italicization. Fay Freak (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring: By "do not care", I mean blatantly disregard said conventions. --Victar (talk) 01:00, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
“Disregarding” is barely distinguishable from ”not caring”, it is roughly “to not want to care for whatever reason”. You have gone out of ideas, I see, interpreting around where the room is thin and the questions are not about language. We understood us already, though the reason will stay dark why you have tried to argue against with so much energy. Let’s have a sleep over it. Fay Freak (talk) 01:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
I deleted my previous reply in an effort to fully disengage from you, hoping you had got the message, but apparently not. Please now take note. I do not participate in discussions with users who make petty personal attacks. --Victar (talk) 01:35, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
But I haven’t made personal attacks, neither petty ones. It is just your perception, likely because I used the word autistic: There it is you who has generalized it and other conceptions, if applicable, as an epithet of yourself rather than a term characterizing a specific state of things in context. I thought you have seen that, that it is unnecessary misunderstanding my points and amounts to gaslighting if you descend into charging with personal attacks. The only reaching-out to personalia is of course when trying to understand what motivates you, i. e. the personal concepts behind your arguments. Concepts, concepts, nothing but concepts have been treated. Is it wrong to characterize concepts aus autistic for example? That seems prescriptivist. Why do people take over characterizations of things that they have created as characterizations of themselves? It is confusing the narrator and the narrated, the significans and the significate. Fay Freak (talk) 01:53, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Arabic word for ‘epilepsy’Edit

Is there a form صرعة (ṣarʿa) beside صَرْع(ṣarʿ) meaning ‘epilepsy’? I need to account for Turkish sara and Armenian սարա (sara, epilepsy). --Vahag (talk) 11:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Vahag: صَرْعَة(ṣarʿa) is, apparently, an instance of epilepsy, the (single) time of epilepsy. The ending ـة(tāʾ marbūṭa) has, among other things, a singulative meaning. The term also means craze, fashion, vogue. [6] and [7]--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Anatoli and Fay Freak. --Vahag (talk) 13:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


Hi. Can you create Aramaic pālaḥ? It is a noun means "servant", if I'm not mistaken.--Calak (talk) 18:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Calak Already there: פלחא‎ /‎ ܦܠܚܐ‎. Here on Wiktionary it can be observed that the Aramaic nouns are in the emphatic state (= Arabic determinate state) and thus bear an aleph. Fay Freak (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I add Kurdish descendants.--Calak (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi Fay. Do you have any info about Arabic جَبَس(jabas, watermelon) etymology?--Calak (talk) 14:33, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

No, but I know that this word exists, I already thought about creating it as North Levantine Arabic (we are running out of Literary Arabic melon words a bit). @Profes.I. will solve it if it is possible. Somewhere in the east of Saudi-Arabia, I have heard, they also call the watermelon جُّحْ(jjuḥ). Fay Freak (talk) 14:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
It seems that it is from clq. Ar of Aleppo. Compare Northern Kurdish zebeş, cebeş, şebeş, jebeş (also with b > v/w variants).--Calak (talk) 16:01, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Fay FreakEdit

I loathe your current name. I can't even take it seriously. Please stop changing your username all the time. --Victar (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

@Victar These are two legit English words fam. And according to the usual Germanic naming patterns, the latter part equaling German frech, i. q. keen, sprightly. Fay Freak (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
You've actually made me hate your name more, "fam". --Victar (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Nice name...--Calak (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Calak, there might be something wrong with your Google Translate settings from English. --Victar (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


WT:AMUL indicates that it doesn't include grammatical terms (which can have all kinds of lexical information). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo I have read it and it does not indicate it, the term “grammar” does not occur in it. Grammatical terms are undertreated and underdiscussed here. I don’t know those “all kinds of lexical information”. There is only the pronunciations which are intentionally left out however according to WT:AMUL since it “varies by language” and would regularly be fabricated anyway. Your Dutch entry genitive absolute does not contain any lexical information that could not be in Translingual. It has endings like a Latin word and can be pronounced like Latin. absolute genitief and absoluter Genitiv are language-specific, genitivus absolutus is not, including in Latin it is Translingual, and still translingual when it is written “Genitivus absolutus” capitalized in German texts. We don’t add terms like Genitivus, Ablativus by the way though we add Genitiv, Ablativ. So what with “genitivus absolutus” that I find in Russian texts? Does it now mean Russian words have Latin script? (@Atitarev) It’s just taxonomic Latin, translingual grammar terms, technical Latin to classify the grammars of the world, and it seems that you should convert Dutch genitivus absolutus to Translingual. How do you distinguish code-switching from Dutch if you claim it is Dutch? There is taxonomical Moringa and an English moringa apparently borrowed from the Translingual, and I know it is English not only from the spelling but it is in wide use by people speaking English who know no science. But the grammatical terms: Those are specialist, used by people who habitually switch to Latin, even if they do not understand the Latin language in general as it is not rarely the case for taxonomists today. How do we even call it when a word permeates the barrier from Translingual to English/Dutch/German/Russian? Naively we use {{bor}} but this process is not “borrowing” as the term is generally understood in linguistics, the physical processes that happen there are dissimilar. Grammar Latin is not prescribed to use italics like biological Taxonomical Latin so this is a dark spot in lexicography. People never cared if a term is code-switching to Latin, Translingual, or native, when they used the grammar terms and lexicographers had economical reasons to leave them out, but now we have all room we eventually have to care. I the terms were more we would need at Wikigrammar in addition to Wikispecies. By the way not few English terms of grammar have become Translingual because they lack in other languages, i. e. the English terms are used in linguistics literature and I would not always know if it is code-switching to English or use of Translingual. With a greater collection of such terms I could ask the community if this grammar taxonomy is the same as biological taxonomy; it will stay a wee bit more difficult to sort out however; I can’t remember classification guides for grammar like biologists have them for such terms, those terms are scattered. @DCDuring, Atitarev Fay Freak (talk) 16:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Translingual is a fraught topic, but we have historically not treated such entries as Translingual, and I think it would a mistake to do so. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
I've wondered about whether medical and legal Latin terms shouldn't be deemed Translingual as they are included in running text in many languages. No one was interested and some were opposed, so the notion went nowhere. I would expect similar lack of interest for linguistic terms. Chemical and biological taxonomic names have international regulatory bodies whose existence is a testimony to their importance and translingual use. There may be a case for other classes of scientific vocabulary to be called Translingual, eg, geological names, mineral names, astronomical names, but I detect no potential for a consensus to treat such terms as Translingual. I'm not sure that there is any particular advantage to users in calling such terms (or even chemical and taxonomic names) Translingual. MW3 famously labelled many such terms "ISV", for "International Scientific Vocabulary". DCDuring (talk) 17:49, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Historically (fifteen years …), there were many things to do first; grammar terms, like biology taxonomy, are just one of the peripheral things linguists don’t care about because they are sufficiently busy with the natural languages. Sure, sure, I agree that we all lack interest – I have too enough natural language things to do, but as I said, but sooner or later we will no longer be able to ignore the incertitude. To think for the future, now one would like to define certain terms of grammar but I don’t feel like they belong to any language and I don’t think users expect us to distinguish; nobody cares if such a term is attested in Slovenian or not, or if he does he would like to see it as a citation for Translingual. It’s about having termini technici so users who find them can put them into a Wiktionary search and get them defined. If he then reads: “Dutch – Portuguese – Serbo-Croatian” I think he will turn up his nose. Such terms are regularly even coined with the intention of being used translingually in the literatures of each national science, and intended to be the same in every language. And yes, it is also about maintainability. Now @Lingo Bingo Dingo has created a term for Dutch that, in my view, clearly falls into that International Scientific Vocabulary category and I can only recommend him to change his view over time lest a monster grow out of such a practice (I can’t be bothered about the presence of this specific term as Dutch here too much, I am just voicing a general cause of unease). Fay Freak (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
My reason for creating language-specific entries for such terms is that separate entries for are the ideal location for information about pronunciation, inflection and semantic relations (e.g. native synonyms or nativised spellings). Allowing e.g. absolute genitief but not genitivus absolutus would create a strange lacuna for what seems to be the more common synonym. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 06:52, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
That’s all things you could say about biological taxons (though they don’t inflect often; being inflected however does not necessarily estrange the quality of being translingual – I see though translingual medical terms (terms that physicians use in their talk) that get inflected for number). Also no lacuna if a term is present as Translingual. It sounds like you fear adding entries as translingual. The synonyms part could be solved with translation sections but languages do not seem to tend to have translations for such terms (as you have seen yourself the nativized term being uncommon in Dutch, same in German). So what’s with the pronunciation? Latin teachers say ablativus absolutus either in Barbaric pronunciation or in one a Roman would have used (it’s like with the biological taxonomy). It’s typical if languages get switched, like if one first speaks Russian and then German often the German will at first sound like Russian, or when people in Germany speak Russian and throw in German words they are pronounced either as Russian or as German. No lacuna if I don’t add all the German words Russians use in their speech here. German words being pronounced with Russian phonology and in Russian sentences does not fool me into believing they are Russian. Fay Freak (talk) 08:04, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
There would still be the issue of presenting gender for various languages with different gender systems. And taxonomic names rarely inflect, both for species and genera. A problem with presenting pronunciations in a Translingual section is that it prevents the entry from displaying detailed variation particular to a language, see the two possible ways of stressing genitivus absolutus for an example. This is notable because one is the default stress pattern for a Dutch adjective + noun phrase while the other indicates that genitivus is the head of the phrase. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
The varying stress is the typical ”do it as in your native tongue” of Translingual Latin terms; when one incorpates words in an other language in a sentence they will usually have a peculiar pronunciation at least to fit into the whole intonation of the sentence the specific language calls for, as I have exemplified by those German words appearing in Russian speech; still not different from the biological taxonomy (back in the dark ages people did not know a “Translingual” i.e. for example reconstructed classical way to pronounce Latin). And who said Translingual terms do not have gender? It looks to me like they do have a gender if the language they are used in needs one (there is some language-specific formatting behaviour for Translingual terms, like German capitalization sometimes applies to such terms (usage varies)). And the grammatical terms surely just inherit the Latin gender even strong against language-specific habits. Fay Freak (talk) 11:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Call me crazy, but I think it is the task of a dictionary to indicate when common variations in pronunciation exist. Details like gender and other distinctions should be demonstrated, not assumed on the basis of (generally reliable) rules of thumb.
Look, I have no particular problem with a Translingual entry in addition to entries from borrowing languages (though it seems not very useful to me, and Translingual in mostly European languages looks like a very parochial form of Tranlingual to me), my problem is with a Translingual entry replacing them. But maybe you should first demonstrate that this form is used in a great many languages. So far I have only seen this spelling being common in English, Dutch and German (with different capitalisation). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
The page shows that fixed grammatical phrases are not yet accepted as Translingual, which I take to mean that it isn't required, referring to the "should we" in your query. Surely its absence on the about-page is an indication to say the least. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 06:52, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo I just meant you should see what is translingual. If a term is Translingual but not specifically Dutch hence comes the conclusiong “you should”. If there is a header “Translingual” on Wiktionary it is because there are terms that are translingual independently of being mentioned on Wiktionary. Fay Freak (talk) 08:04, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

About Translingual edit summary falsehoodEdit

I can hardly be called an author of WT:AMUL as the entry history shows that I made only two changes, both minor. Please be more careful in your contributions and edit summaries. DCDuring (talk) 22:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring I clearly referred to Wiktionary:Taxonomic names, that’s what I linked because it was orphaned. Fay Freak (talk) 00:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
What is the "clear" referent of that essay in the edit summary other than WT:AMUL? DCDuring (talk) 01:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring Apparently it would be this essay if it were WT:AMUL, but I would not call it essay either. The only thing referred by “that” and “essay” could be WT:Taxonomic names. Also I said that “here” is an opportunity to “link” that essay, so the latter could not be the same page. Had you by chance forgotten that Wiktionary:Taxonomic names exists? Fay Freak (talk) 07:34, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
The content was entirely in the edit summary, which people can and usually read in isolation. Most people use the edit summary as an explanation for the change, some as an advertisement of the change; others just put a copy of the change into the summary. The link was buried in a pipe and thus only visible from the edit window or on hovering. You need to be a little more aware of how people encounter and understand what you write, or you would need to be a little more aware if you cared about the effect of your words on others in this community. DCDuring (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


Your edit summary: "English: Bizarre gloss of the Ancient Greek word since revision 4844953 of 13 July 2008. That’s the Modern Greek μάλαμα User:Stephen G. Brown! Now it’s all around the web."

That "bizarre gloss" is not since revision 4844953. Nadando entered it in revision 4844874. It included a request for Greek script. All I did was provide the Greek script.
Revision 4844874: {ML.} {term|amalgama||mercury alloy|lang=la}, from {etyl|grc} {rfscript|Greek} malagma, from malassein (to soften), from malakos (soft).
Revision 4844953: {ML.} {term|amalgama||mercury alloy|lang=la}, from {etyl|grc} {term|μάλαγμα|sc=Grek|tr=malagma||gold}, from {term|μαλάσσω|sc=Grek|tr=malassō||to soften}, from {term|μαλακός|sc=Grek|tr=malakos||soft} —Stephen (Talk) 04:36, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't see where I ever said "malagma" means gold. That was the next edit (yours). DTLHS (talk) 04:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown added the gloss in 4844953 while the other terms had been glossed before; only now in 2018 it has been that somebody noticed that there is a contradiction of this gloss to the other senses and bothered to check the senses. I talk in the third person because I do not see a reason to impute it to somebody. The identity of persons after decades is sparse, hence also criminal investigations have to be time-barred, and prosecuting a person for a murder thirty years ago is like prosecuting an innocent, I say this unironically; societies have made regressions in this matter. Fay Freak (talk) 12:18, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. —Stephen (Talk) 04:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


It is sense 5, the "voiding the bowels" sense. - TheDaveRoss 19:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Hm, I thought rather about something like “becoming tired”, “getting one’s force of life empty”. But this makes sense. Should the gloss be changed or amended by labels to make this usage more clear? It seems to me that this deserves a sub-sense: Sense 5 gets the label “transitive”, and gets a sub-sense 5.1 “intransitive”. Fay Freak (talk) 19:13, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


Please research your edits more thoroughly. Don't add "from 20th c." when a look into the most basic of ressources (the "Deutsches Wörterbuch") would have given you a quote from the 18th century. You must have some information that a word or usage has no older attestations before you can add "from XYth c."

The frequency of it increased in that time. Before it was fringe. Wustmann observed its increasing use, listing it under “Modewörter”, and proscribed it. I remembered it from Wustmann and added from him. You will have a hard time to find uses in print hundred years before. The first use is not everything. It is also important when uses become dominating, as Dirne. Fay Freak (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2018 (UTC)


You mentioned me in an edit summary there. The Welsh terms refer to the monetary amount and the money paid. Not sure what you wanted to do with that information. — LlywelynII 13:41, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@LlywelynII That you have added the translation under the meaning “monetary value assigned to a person” only. As you say now, and the entries galanas and sarhad say, it is as well “the money paid itself” (which you haven’t added under the respective translation section). Fay Freak (talk) 14:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)


Do you think the templates themselves should also be moved to the original script, and the transliterated name kept only as a redirect? —Rua (mew) 13:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

@Rua No I don’t. But the original name could easily be a redirect. Titles of templates are a different story (they are not visible in the created page).
I ping here @Vahagn Petrosyan because he spread those transliterated names. I know where those transliterations come from. Library catalogues. Surely this is an argument, that’s why I have kept transliterations of the titles (while not the author names because it would be ugly to have Surname (translit), forename (translit), only in the format Forename Surname (translit translit) it would be acceptable). But I underline here that transliteration of author names of book titles does not let your works appear more scientific or something like that. Librarians yore had to add foreign-script books to their index cards and computers, they could not enter Cyrillic even when they perfectly the language, and not every printer could print non-Latin scripts. Transliteration became imitated and a habit, one would be more safe to do transliterations “because it has always been done like this” and one does not need to explain to the publisher then that one needs such things (foreign scripts = copyeditor costs). But this all is misplaced on the internet or in the 21th century, and in library catalogues they should put the original script everywhere. A digital native just searches the original script, in a library catalogue or if he searches Wiktionary, it is unsensible why one should try various transliterations to find a book. And in Wiktionary we use original script almost on every occasion. Now it’s strange we use the pagename to fill |entry= but use transliterations in the rest of the reference template, and also as I have showed стакан (stakan) has lines of Persian script anyway. Naively, I created {{R:rup:Polenaković}} in the original script, Latin template name but else all original. And I am even in Germany. Even stranger it must be for Russians coming here to find bibliographic references transliterated. See also Category:Japanese reference templates, of course the templates just use Japanese script and creators did not even think to transliterate. In the non-Latin-writing countries one obviously has the original scripts in the library catalogues. Fay Freak (talk) 14:12, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Note that of course Ivan Štambuk entered reference template data as it was written, even in Serbo-Croatian where the transliteration is straight-forward. It is a strange idea that readers would rather see transliterations than the original title. Fay Freak (talk) 15:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I was following the standard practice in English linguistic literature, for example Leiden's IEED series. I have no strong opinion on which approach is better. --Vahag (talk) 18:10, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Urdu TransliterationEdit

Thanks for your guidance! I will try to change it. (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again for support. (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Currently entries have a chronological logicEdit

You said "Currently entries have a chronological logic". What is your evidence? Why do you say things you do not know to be the case? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)


Bro why you just reverting my edits? check this page in Persian language, I copy/paste it from there. This word پرچم is also mentioned as Turkic in traditional Persian dictionaries like معین and عمید. Can we add source to a website? like this which is for an online dictionary and word پرچم. —This unsigned comment was added by Zeos 403 (talkcontribs) at 08:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC).

@Zeos 403 Your edit was not enough. As you know Turkic you also know the etymon or comparisons. You could write something like “A {{bor|fa|trk}} borrowing, compare {{cog|az|word}}, {{cog|tt|word}}.” Writing “Turkic”, “French” and the like as general lexica often do is a failure – in this case you are supposed to give some Turkic forms. Then people are more likely to believe that it is from Turkic. I see that the dictionary you links says it is Turkic, but I don’t read Persian and don’t see Turkic words the Persian dictionary gives. That’s the information people want from you to put on Wiktionary in English! To be more accurate than the other dictionary! Fay Freak (talk) 10:58, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
True, OK, I will do more research and add it.
I did research about پرچم it seems it is from برجم and برجکم of Turkic (I don't know old-Turkic or no) the source is a book from "محمد صادق نائبی" you can download the free version from here (the first link).

xlit to langEdit

You changed a bunch of templates from {{xlit}} to {{lang}}. Please revert these as they do not perform the same function. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 15:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Victar No that was intended, see section “Transliteration” supra. Fay Freak (talk) 15:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
@Victar Apparently you cling to the twentieth century. It is the standard of the internet to give bibliographies in the main-script. The main script is the main information, and almost anyone just gives the main script. Of course {{R:be:ESBM}} has been added by @Per utramque cavernam in main script, {{R:zle-ono:Zaliznjak 2004}} created by @Vorziblix uses the original script. Whence are you taking that giving transliterations only is “is standard practice”. You are in the wrong, it is not, the opposite is the standard practice. You are deviating from the standard practice. Fay Freak (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
You're completely welcome to that option, but next time, before you make a choice like that on all of our behalves, start a discussion first. --{{victar|talk}} 16:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Victar, I for example can't read Armenian script and would prefer to see the names transliterated. Benwing2 (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
To me the ideal would have both the original title and the transliteration, with a preference for the former if only one or the other is included, so as to be able to easily look up the original work. However, AFAIK there’s not yet a consensus for settling on any one particular format as standard, so maintaining status quo ante for each template is probably the best option in the interim to avoid endless edit wars until consensus can be achieved. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2 What would it bring you to see the names transliterated if you do not know Armenian anyway? You can’t read Armenian script and can’t read Armenian (or is this a rare case when one is just illiterate in one script but does understand the spoken language?). And if this were an argument it would still not do away with the arguments for the original script, which would lead us to having all of main script, transliteration and translation, but then rightly @Dan Polansky dissents that this is too much clutter. Fay Freak (talk) 16:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh I assume I know what’s the matter. You just hate Cyrillic. Like elsewhere claiming that writing Yaghnobi in Cyrillic is nationalist propaganda. You should repent your passions and undo your deviations from the standard, either by main-script and translation (recommended) or main-script, transliteration and translation (which I would agree with, since my main issue is that you can’t find the templates in the original script without it and you force people to read transliterations). Or what am I supposed to do now? Write a vote to stretch WT:EL to an even longer proportion? I chose the most natural option, but if you want the references format dictated after this not having been felt required yet it can also be arranged.
I don’t like any of the alphabets more. But if one knows Russian one reads Russian in Russian and not in transliteration and one does not recognize the references when they are written in transliteration (one recognizes words by their written form) and one does not find them when one wants to find if a template is already in Wiktionary (potentially also leading to duplicate templates), unless one actually searches templates by insource-search. Fay Freak (talk) 16:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
In my case, I may well have heard of the author by name, and will recognize the name if it's written in Latin script, but not in a script I can't read, like Armenian or Japanese. If I see the name in Latin script, and a translation of the book title in English, I know whether it's an interesting book, and if so, I will go see if there's a translation in English or some other language I can read, or if not and I'm interested only in a specific entry, I will consider bugging someone (e.g. Vahag for Armenian) to help translate that entry. If the name is in an unreadable script, then none of this is possible. Note that I actually prefer to see foreign names transliterated using "conventional" instead of scientific transliteration, hence e.g. Tchaikovsky not Čajkovskij, but I lost the debate on this one ... you win some debates, you lose others, and you move on. Benwing2 (talk) 17:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2 “I may well have heard of the author by name” – that’s an argument. I know another one: It is dubious how to alphabetize references if they are in multiple scripts, but computers always take the Latin first, then the Cyrillic, then the Arabic etc., i. e. go by Unicode. But that the title is translitered (not translated, that’s not my issue) does not make you know whether it’s interesting, that’s a difference here!
Furthermore, think about iconicity. I know who Трубачёв is but I do not know who Trubačov is or who Trubachyev is. However that’s not even that important or severe, that is to say, since these serve only as names and do not convey anything, I expect names there anyhow. But: Having the book-titles in transliterations only is a very grave affront. I thought I could avoid reading Russian language (the names are marginal, I mean Russian text) in transliteration. Everyone in the main Cyrillic-writing countries avoids reading transliterations of his language. I have not yet seen an argument why the book titles of Russian need to be transliterated (I wanted to appease the overloaded mind) or even the original form not given. Why so? (Plus I think you overestimate the existence of English translations of references here. And if the name is in an unreadable script, nothing becomes impossible. You can copy and past … that’s better and the original title identifies the work.)
Also, what’s up with the Japanese reference templates? In many there are Japanese titles, some give the original author’s name in transcription only, some in both transcription and original script, some only the original script name, aand the original characters are very important since there all kinds of rare characters in use for names. Isn’t that a killer argument? Fay Freak (talk) 21:37, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the book titles are given in transliteration only and not also in the original script. But keep in mind that the goal of Wiktionary is to serve **English-speaking** users, and most of them aren't conversant in any foreign scripts at all. Benwing2 (talk) 01:20, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

On bibliographyEdit

Fay, about your bibliographic concerns: I like to see-say-understand: original-transcription-translation. This english-wiktionary has, de facto, an international audience.
Problem w:transliteration-w:transcription. The roman alphabet does not have ʃ (sh), tʃ (ch), δ (this), θ (thin) and so on. Another problem: what is international? Why an english sh and not a german sch for ʃ ? I was thinking of non-western readers (looking at Kevin's chinese, korean, etc). They would need /laibrari/ for library, /Tsvaik/ for Zweig. We are not polyglotts! Perhaps you could develop a standard wiktionary-international-bibliographic style? sarri.greek (talk) 08:56, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I have been exactly pushing forward somewhat of a standard wiktionary-international-bibliographic style. Because from the problems with transcriptions I assessed that one could agree upon at least having the original script names so one does not have to reverse-transliterate etc., so I tried to make this notion more public on the Beer Parlour. You see that a single user, Victar, topples this endeavour with a reference to an imaginary standard, i. e. with less reasoning but equal animosity. Barely anybody is even discussing and because of this lethargy of our personnel nothing moves forward. I wish people would think things through so to bring them to their ends – @Richwarm88, referring to User talk:Chuck Entz § Keeping good people. One might follow from this that to keep good people one needs more people, but it would already help if the existing people would agree upon conclusions. Currently we are trying to find criteria for code-switching – the hope is that people become smarter from discussions. People are repelled when the antitheses build up without decomposition. Fay Freak (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Sorry to bother you again dear Fay. In several greek ref.templates your language code appears at the output. Could I erase it please? PS.irrelevant: the letters for arabic are so terribly small... sarri.greek (talk) 15:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: Yeah, and perhaps it should be |worklang= too. They changed the back-end multiple times, see Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/December § %7Clang%3D in %7B%7Bquote-web%7D%7D. When there was |language= and |lang= synonymous and all the module errors because templates used the full language names instead of the codes I fixed some manually before @DTLHS ran his bot. Afterwards I lost track of the parameters. I don’t know now what parameter is what @Sgconlaw. Technicians did that and this and then wrote one thing into the Wiktionary:News for editors and other things into the template documentations and also implemented different things for quotation and citation templates. Fay Freak (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I think the intention is generally for both the {{cite}} and {{quote}} families of templates to have similar parameters. @DTLHS has now updated {{cite-meta}} so that |language= or |lang= accepts either a language code (preferred) or a language name typed in full, and I have just added |worklang= in case editors use that parameter (it works the same way as |language= or |lang=). — SGconlaw (talk) 04:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
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