Talk:манж хэл

RFD discussion: November 2018–May 2019

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манж хэл

@Crom daba marked this term for speedy deletion saying it was non-idiomatic. But I have no way to verify if it's idiomatic or not, so bringing it here. —Internoob 23:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

See Манж, хэл. Crom daba (talk) 00:53, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I guess we need a lower case манж (manž, “Manchurian”) and then we can delete манж хэл. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:20, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Arguably these are the same word language internally, with a capitalization pattern taken from Россия vs. российский, I'm not sure how we should organize the entries, presumably with some sort of soft redirect. Crom daba (talk) 12:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Crom daba: Thanks for the response. The answer depends on the standard spelling. We have both монгол (mongol) and Монгол (Mongol). If forming language, nationality names are formed by (capitalised) [country name] + хэл (xel, “language”), хүн (xün, “person”), etc. then no need to worry. If lower case forms exist, their usage is different, then we definitely need them. If they are just alternative case, you can still define them with {{alternative case form of|Манж|lang=mn}}. I know it's pain in the neck, especially if you're the only one looking after Mongolian entries but this is what needs to be done eventually. Again, depends on the capitalisation rules in Mongolian. They may be loose like in some languages. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:18, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not completely confident in my understanding of the rules of Mongolian capitalization, but to half a page dedicated to it in a Mongolian high school textbook, it seems that it comes down to state names being capitalized and ethnic names not. So that we have Франц (Franc, “France”) = Франц улс (Franc uls, literally “French state”) = Бүгд Найрамдах Франц Улс (Bügd Najramdax Franc Uls, “French republic”, literally “all peaceful French state”) (see бүгд найрамдах улс (bügd najramdax uls), not sure why every word is capitalized), but франц хэл (franc xel, “French (language)”), франц хүн (franc xün, “Frenchman”), францчууд (francčuud, “Frenchmen, the French”).

I suppose this means we should have separate pages for capitalized and non-capitalized forms, which is kind of unnatural since it's the same word just being used attributively (very common in Mongolian as in English), but I suppose orthography needs to be described too. Crom daba (talk) 12:04, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Is there something in Mongolian grammar that can be used to distinguish compound nouns in which the principal noun is modified by a noun adjunct from combinations consisting of a noun modified by an ordinary adjective?  --Lambiam 15:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

No, many grammars even consider adjectives and nouns to be indistinguishable in Mongolian (Janhunen shows that there are some differences when used as predicates though.).

However there are also genitive phrases like Францын хаан (Francyn xaan, “the King (khan) of France”) where Франц is a understood as a full noun rather than as a relational attribute (as in English). Crom daba (talk) 12:04, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

We should then also delete the term монгол хэл, and likewise for ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ ᠬᠡᠯᠡ (the same in Mongolian script).  --Lambiam 08:13, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree. BTW, I like this linking more: ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ
ᠬᠡᠯᠡ (moŋɣol kele)--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:18, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Already deleted. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 14:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)