Talk:שׂימחת־תּורה
Latest comment: 8 years ago by Wikitiki89 in topic RFV discussion: November 2014–July 2015
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I'm not sure about this spelling in Yiddish. --WikiTiki89 18:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like an error. Embryomystic (talk • contribs), what source did you use? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I can't seem to find a source, and it may be an error on my part, though there are a number of examples of it that come up if you google the phrase (and I don't mean just Wiktionary and mirrors thereof). If I've erred, feel free to remove the entry of course. I won't argue with you. embryomystic (talk) 22:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you found examples, what is your question? I checked, and it showed up on The Forward, and it's an entry in [1]. The non-Hebrew spelling reflects the Yiddish pronunciation. I was privileged to hear a friend last month, a week before his hasanah, do the complete song quoted in fragments at The Forward. And yes, his fluent-from-birth Yiddish pronunciations were distinctly non-Hebrew. Here are links to another song, along with this Yiddish spelling: [2] and [3]. The latter is a blog, but you can see it's quoting from a recording. Choor monster (talk) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I looked it up in about 6 or 7 dictionaries, including Yiddish-Hebrew, Yiddish-Russian, Yiddish-German. Also, I looked up Chaim Grade Di Agune, since it has a big Simchat Torah scene. All of them had the Hebrew spelling exclusively. Choor monster (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yiddish dictionaries all copy each other, so it could be a "dictionary-only" spelling. Where did you look up Di Agune? Also, what do you mean by the "Hebrew spelling"? Both spellings are used in Hebrew, but the one with the extra yud is by far less common. --WikiTiki89 00:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've only seen it without the yud, so I assume that is the Hebrew spelling, and the with-yud version, based on this discussion was, I presumed, a Yiddish-only spelling. As I said, the with-yud version was not in the dictionaries, and not in Grade's novel. I looked up Di Agune, like all the dictionaries (other than the linked-to online dictionary), in a library. Choor monster (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so I misunderstood you. I have two Yiddish dictionaries, both of which are fairly prescriptive and spell it with the yud in the lemma, but give שׂמחה as an alternative form of שׂימחה. So I was referring to the with-yud spelling (the one nominated here) as the potentially dictionary-only spelling. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I will point out that the library had four editions of Harkavy; I only checked the most recent. I will probably look again later this week. Choor monster (talk) 14:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The 1910 version is available online: http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/harkavy/index.utf8.html .--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The 1910 one gives the spelling שמחת־תורה. --WikiTiki89 01:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The 1910 version is available online: http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/harkavy/index.utf8.html .--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I will point out that the library had four editions of Harkavy; I only checked the most recent. I will probably look again later this week. Choor monster (talk) 14:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so I misunderstood you. I have two Yiddish dictionaries, both of which are fairly prescriptive and spell it with the yud in the lemma, but give שׂמחה as an alternative form of שׂימחה. So I was referring to the with-yud spelling (the one nominated here) as the potentially dictionary-only spelling. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've only seen it without the yud, so I assume that is the Hebrew spelling, and the with-yud version, based on this discussion was, I presumed, a Yiddish-only spelling. As I said, the with-yud version was not in the dictionaries, and not in Grade's novel. I looked up Di Agune, like all the dictionaries (other than the linked-to online dictionary), in a library. Choor monster (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yiddish dictionaries all copy each other, so it could be a "dictionary-only" spelling. Where did you look up Di Agune? Also, what do you mean by the "Hebrew spelling"? Both spellings are used in Hebrew, but the one with the extra yud is by far less common. --WikiTiki89 00:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can't seem to find a source, and it may be an error on my part, though there are a number of examples of it that come up if you google the phrase (and I don't mean just Wiktionary and mirrors thereof). If I've erred, feel free to remove the entry of course. I won't argue with you. embryomystic (talk) 22:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Wikitiki89, Choor monster Bearing in mind that Yiddish words need only one mention to pass, and that this is just defined as an alternative form, are there enough citations that this passes as Yiddish? Also, Wikitiki says above that "both spellings are used in Hebrew", so should we have Hebrew entries? I don't see any hits of either שׂימחת־תּורה or שׂמחת־תּורה in any language on Google Books, Groups, Scholar, or Issuu. - -sche (discuss) 17:50, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
- In Hebrew it would be written without the points (google books:"שימחת־תורה" and google books:"שמחת־תורה"); also Google Books usually does not scan the points even when they are written (including for Yiddish). Now having looked more closely at the results for the former, many are scannos, but many are legitimate uses in both Hebrew and Yiddish, with or without the hyphen in both languages. --WikiTiki89 18:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
- So, this passes RFV? - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
- I guess so. I tried so hard not to find citations... --WikiTiki89 19:01, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
- So, this passes RFV? - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
- In Hebrew it would be written without the points (google books:"שימחת־תורה" and google books:"שמחת־תורה"); also Google Books usually does not scan the points even when they are written (including for Yiddish). Now having looked more closely at the results for the former, many are scannos, but many are legitimate uses in both Hebrew and Yiddish, with or without the hyphen in both languages. --WikiTiki89 18:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)