Talk:जनवरी
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Octahedron80
@Atitarev, AryamanA Why is/was this and all other months listed as deriving from Portuguese as well as English? The form of the words clearly shows English not Portuguese influence. Benwing2 (talk) 01:26, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: Historically, Hindi got the Portuguese forms first then English influenced it much more later. They aren't normal English borrowings for sure: they use the dental instead of the retroflex, and see how फ़रवरी (faravrī) looks. If they were purely English borrowings, they would look like जैन्यूअरी (jainyūarī) or something like that. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 01:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- @AryamanA I am skeptical. जनवरी (janvarī) does not look much at all like janeiro, nor does फ़रवरी (farvarī) look like fevereiro. The forms you are suggesting would only apply to recent borrowings made by Hindi speakers fluent in English; janvarī is completely plausible as an older direct borrowing from English made by Hindi speakers not fluent in English and attempting to match the native phonology/phonotactics, and not so plausible as a borrowing of any sort from janeiro, which was probably /ʒɐnejɾu/ back a few hundred years ago (now /ʒɐnɐjɾu/ in Portugal). Benwing2 (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: This is not an unestablished theory. Rupert Snell mentions it in one of his books, will look for it online. One thing to note is that Hindi did not have direct contact with Portuguese really, it was mediated through coastal languages (probably Konkani => Marathi => Hindi) undergoing many changes to fit their phonologies and so the whole process is a bit muddled.
- The Konkani names (spoken in Goa, which was a Portuguese colony!) are somewhat intermediary between Hindi and Portuguese: जानेर (jāner), फेब्रेर (febrer), मार्च (mārc), आब्रील (ābrīl), माय (māy)... (words from
{{R:IndoWordNet}}). - And the history of using retroflexes to match English alveolars is so long! See e.g. लालटेन (lālṭen), which is a really early borrowing and the rest of the word has been totally readapted to Hindi, but it keeps the retroflex; the retroflex is a distinctive feature of English borrowings. It really doesn't make sense that Hindi has e.g. सितंबर (sitambar) purely on the basis of English. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 02:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- @AryamanA Hmm. If you really think the Portuguese words should stay in the etymology (even in जुलाई, which could easily be a pure English borrowing?), maybe we can say something like "Reshaped based on
{{bor|hi|en|X}}from earlier{{bor|hi|pt|Y}}", which is less obscure than the current etymology. Benwing2 (talk) 08:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- @AryamanA Hmm. If you really think the Portuguese words should stay in the etymology (even in जुलाई, which could easily be a pure English borrowing?), maybe we can say something like "Reshaped based on
- @AryamanA I am skeptical. जनवरी (janvarī) does not look much at all like janeiro, nor does फ़रवरी (farvarī) look like fevereiro. The forms you are suggesting would only apply to recent borrowings made by Hindi speakers fluent in English; janvarī is completely plausible as an older direct borrowing from English made by Hindi speakers not fluent in English and attempting to match the native phonology/phonotactics, and not so plausible as a borrowing of any sort from janeiro, which was probably /ʒɐnejɾu/ back a few hundred years ago (now /ʒɐnɐjɾu/ in Portugal). Benwing2 (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- If you have older spellings that were from different language, make new pages for them, as Portuguese does not fit current spellings at all. Perhaps you should also search first attested date; this could identify which language they derived. (There are also older version of English and Portuguese to determine.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 02:37, 18 March 2022 (UTC)