Talk:gender ideology
Latest comment: 5 years ago by Kiwima in topic RFV discussion: June–August 2018
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- (derogatory) gender identity
- (derogatory) Pejorative term for gender mainstreaming , gender studies and other beliefs that recognise personal gender identity.
gender ideology is a offensive term which is used by transphobic people. I think second definition is more accurate. But User:Metaknowledge argued that it seems politically charged --Sharouser (talk) 10:16, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think we should second definition with some modification --Sharouser (talk) 10:16, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think the expansion was a move in the right direction, to the extent the term is idiomatic at all, but I'm not convinced it is [idiomatic]. There's a spectrum of use, a lot of which is clearly just "any ideology relating to gender", as in the books Victorian Gender Ideology and Literature and Revealing Reveiling: Islamist Gender Ideology in Contemporary Egypt, and the 2006 Handbook of Gender in Archaeology speaking of "second-wave structuralist construction of household spaces as universally conforming to the elite gender ideology of fixed mutually exclusive male versus female"; the latter especially refer to an ideology that usually doesn't recognize gender identity. Is Western "conservative" use of it to refer to a "liberal" view (which actually a rather traditional view in several societies...) of gender not just the same term, "ideology relating the gender"? (I'm sceptical that a sense "gender identity" could be attested in a way that couldn't just be the broader / more SOP sense.) Pejorativeness seems to derive from users' attitudes to the referent concept and their claim it is an "ideology", compare e.g. "racial ideology" (similarly often used by people who take a negative view, but seemingly WT:SOP). - -sche (discuss) 14:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- I disagree. The phrase "gender ideology" is being used to refer to a particular gender ideology that people object to, not to gender ideology in general (the fried egg rule). However, that narrow meaning is still only a hot sense, as far as I can see, since I find no cites for it before 2018. Even the broader use of "gender ideology" is a bit more specific than any ideology that applies to gender, as it is generally taken to refer to sex roles and gender norms, as opposed, for example, to an ideology that sees women as good and men as bad or vice versa (which would be an ideology about gender, but not a gender ideology in this sense). Kiwima (talk) 01:20, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- That seems like a practical rather than a lexical restriction: if there were a culture whose ideology of gender were so undetailed (and there was any significant amount of literature on it), I expect it would be described as that culture's gender ideology. But I suppose if the hot sense is kept, the broader sense should be.
But I'm still not sure whether that sense is best considered a separate sense or not; I'm on the fence. It does seem like how e.g. white supremacists would dismiss the promotion of racial equality and diversity as "racial ideology", while other people would see white supremacist views as "racial ideology". (Or more generally, "no, you have a point of view, I'm just telling it like it is"; "no, other people have an accent, I talk right".) The "we are against gender ideology" quotation highlights this, in that if a trans person said the same thing in the context of a discussion of the prevailing view that men and women must adhere to strict/limiting, defined roles, it would be obvious that "gender ideology" was being used to denote the restrictive ideology instead, rather than the permissive one. - -sche (discuss) 05:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- That seems like a practical rather than a lexical restriction: if there were a culture whose ideology of gender were so undetailed (and there was any significant amount of literature on it), I expect it would be described as that culture's gender ideology. But I suppose if the hot sense is kept, the broader sense should be.
RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 04:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)