Talk:trebui

ipa pronounciation

Is the IPA for this correct? Because in its infinitive form the stress actually falls on i and there a hiatus before with u, so there should be a vocal i there instead of yod. ...I think.

I can't find anywhere that says specifically that it's tre-bu-í , but if you're a native I'll take your word for it. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 21:45, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, all verbs in the 4th group (ending in i or î) have the stress on that i or î (or I can't think of any 4th group verb that doesn't work like that in infinitive). Anyway, here's a list of dictionary entries (Romanian, but you can see the stress marked out with an acute accent). Oh, and sorry for not signing my above post, I forgot... Alzwded 07:11, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Inflection

@Fytcha, the verb is however inflected in the imperfect, simple perfect and pluperfect (cf. DEX). Is it really proscribed? "Trebuiam să participăm", "trebuia să se prezinte", etc. are extremely common. --Robbie SWE (talk) 13:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Robbie SWE: The second example doesn't count because it is indistinguishable whether the verb therein is personal or impersonal.

Thinking about it, I believe you're right with regards to the frequency, the verb is definitely used with a personal conjugation more often than my writing ("sometimes but rarely") suggests. What's more, I haven't come across so much proscription regarding the other tenses though I'd wager it also exists. I'm sure if you asked somebody who proscribes trebuiesc they will readily tell you the same thing about trebuiam.

What would your suggestion for that sentence be? Do you agree that the personal present indicative is often proscribed? Maybe we can increase the described frequency ("sometimes but rarely") and lessen the described proscription ("heavily proscribed")? Fytcha (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Robbie SWE: Rereading your comment, I'm not sure whether I understood you 100% correctly when I replied for the first time. Are you saying it is always conjugated personally in the tenses you've named? If that is what you meant, then I beg to differ. I maintain the position that the impersonal conjugation is used more often than the personal one for the present and the imperfect across all registers and that it is conjugated almost exclusively impersonally in the formal register. Fytcha (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Now I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. I was just referring to the utter lack of cases in the current conjugation table. There are loads of instances in literature where trebui is inflected personally: Trebuiau să poarte un nume by Marin Sorescu just to mention one poem using it in the title. My point is that the conjugation table is wildly inaccurate and the usage notes are kind of misleading. Personal forms are found all over the Internet and more importantly, in durably archived sources. Robbie SWE (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you that the current conjugation table is misleading and I agree that forms of the personal conjugation are attested. With regard to the conjugation table, I think we should create a second one below the first one (which would correspond to the second one here).

Concerning the usage notes, I'm still curious what you want to change it to as I've asked above. I would be on board with most changes you deem fit. As I've conceded in my first reply, the current wording isn't the most apt. I only want to have pointed out the two facts that: 1. the impersonal conjugation is more common than the personal conjugation (at the very least in the present indicative) and 2. there are calls of proscription surrounding the personal conjugation (again, at the very least in the present indicative). Do you agree with me on these two points? If not, I can provide you with evidence. Fytcha (talk) 17:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you on both points, don’t get me wrong. If we were to improve the entry, I strongly believe that the first line of action should be to add a conjugation table with all the forms found in DEX. When it comes to the usage notes, I think we can start off by deleting the personal present indicative forms provided as examples since they will be provided in the conjugation table. My main concerns are marked in bold writing: "In informal speech, trebui is sometimes but rarely used personally, mainly in the present indicative[...]". Is it really just informal speech? I've seen personal forms of trebui in the imperfect form used in everything from poems to UN documents about human rights – the latter hardly classifies as informal. The second part about "mainly in the present indicative" is also too restricting – as I said before, there are tons of examples where imperfect and simple perfect forms are used personally. Robbie SWE (talk) 12:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I understand you better now; thanks for the clarification. Going into this discussion, I was not quite convinced that the personal conjugation is really used in formal contexts (i.e. beyond register mistakes) (this is because I've never heard it in one before) but now as per your hint I've found some official documents that contain it. I think we agree wholeheartedly and I am going to change the article accordingly now. Tell me what you think afterwards. Fytcha (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Robbie SWE: I believe it would not be possible to find attestations for any of the imperative forms of the two newly added translation boxes. "trebuie" as an imperative also just sounds wrong. Is there a way to disable the imperative in the two conjugation templates I've added? Fytcha (talk) 15:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of – better ask at the Information Desk or Grease Pit. Regarding imperative forms, are you sure? I've found "Trebuie sa pleci! Locul asta te schimba pana in oase!" – looks like the imperative but I'm unsure. How about "Da, trebuie să ne vaccinăm!"? Robbie SWE (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I'd analyze both of your examples as impersonal present indicatives but I think the question is hard to answer from an empirical standpoint. We'd need attestations of any of the following forms (of which I've found none) to conclusively prove the existence of the imperative:

1. "Trebuiește ...!"

2. "Trebuie-ți ...!" / "Trebuiește-ți ...!" (analogous to e.g. Ia-ți!)

3. "Trebuiți-vă ...!" (analogous to e.g. Luați-vă!)

(All of course used in the second person.)

Maybe it's also possible to argue from a linguistic point of view that modal verbs are always unable to form imperatives because that would be two modalities combined into one verb (just an idea; I don't have a linguistic background to back this up). In all languages I know, modal verbs unable to form the imperative.

Alternatively, we may just leave this as is. It's not going to harm anybody. :) Fytcha (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)