Category talk:Proto-Dravidian language

Old Telugu & Old Malayalam

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2023/April#Old_Telugu,_Old_Malayalam,_Proto_South_Dravidian,_Proto_North_Dravidian,_Proto_Central_Dravidian_and_Hindustani.

Discussion moved from User_talk:Kutchkutch#How_do_you_add_a_language_code?.

@AleksiB 1945, Bhagadatta (Notifying Rajasekhar1961, Getsnoopy):

Old Telugu and Middle Malayalam seem worthy of having language codes. However, Wikipedia says that the existence of Old Malayalam as being distinct from Middle Tamil may be controversial using the following:

Freeman, Rich (2003). "The Literary Culture of Premodern Kerala". In Sheldon, Pollock (ed.). Literary Cultures in History. University of California Press. pp. 445–46.

Whatever the historical realities behind the variously conceived Cera era, the language at an official level was certainly a variety of Tamil, and there is no literature preserved from this period that significantly marks out a linguistically or literarily independent Kerala-based identity. If this era was indeed “the key period in Kerala history since it was the formative period of all that is distinctive in Kerala society and culture,” one might expect to find preserved from these three centuries of glory some literary expression from the local language. Instead, all we find are a scattering of Sanskrit works affiliated with Kerala courts, a handful of devotional works in the contemporary literary Tamil attributed to Kerala kings (but surviving only in Tamil Nadu), and the language of the local inscriptions, which looks a lot like a diverging dialect of Tamil.

Since Proto-South Dravidian language is a reconstructed language, it may require a more detailed consideration such as whether its innovations are significantly different enough from the parent Proto-Dravidian language. Kutchkutch (talk) 23:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@Emmanuel Asbon, Vis M Kutchkutch (talk) 23:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch:, Old Telugu definitely needs a code, because while working on Dravidian entries, I have come across Old Telugu terms which are currently shown as Telugu on wiktionary with an "archaic" labelling. I have not added the code as there does not seem to be anyone working in the Old Telugu language at wiktionary yet. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 01:27, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

As for Proto-South Dravidian, there are terms reconstructable only till PSD like the 1SG parallel to *yĀn - *ñān, *wēṇṭ-V, *wiṭu, *waṭakku, *moyal, *pō-, *pon etc and changes like VṯV > VṟV, in SD I terms like *wāẓay, maẓay, *tinkaḷ, *ñācVṯu, *kīẓ and changes like *-anṯu > *-an AleksiB 1945 (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

It'd be nice to have a proper language code for Middle Tamil, as of now, it's marked as a dialectal form (ta-mid) of Tamil, which is incorrect. Which also makes it impossible to create entries for Middle Tamil, and for marking Tamil terms derived from it. A lot of Middle Tamil entries are simply marked as Tamil entries. A proper language code like 'dra-mta' would help a lot. And a lot of scripts (Pallava, Vattezhuthu, Kolezhuthu as such) were used to write it in different regions accross Tamilakam (modern day Tamil Nadu and Kerala.) Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 04:27, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@AleksiB 1945, Emmanuel Asbon: Would it be possible to create example entries in addition to those that may already exist such as பஃது (paḥtu) and నూఱు (nūṟu)? Example entries with references would demonstrate that there is a need for new language codes and that they will not be unused. For attested languages (Old/Middle forms of Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam), the example entries can be in the main namespace with the appropriate labelling such as {{lb|ta|Middle Tamil}}. For reconstructed languages such as Proto-South Dravidian, it would be better if the example entries are in the user namespace such as User:AleksiB_1945/Reconstruction:Proto-South Dravidian/pecar Kutchkutch (talk) 17:10, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll look up and try to add as many Middle Tamil entries as I can. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 08:38, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

If PSD is going to be added, will it be the ancestor of both SD I and SD II or just SD I, as SD II is regarded as "South-Central Dravidian" by Wikipedia. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 07:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

PSD as ancestor of SD I and SD II like Krishnamurti's reconstruction, even most of wiktionary's reconstructed PD words are from his works AleksiB 1945 (talk) 00:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion moved to User_talk:AleksiB_1945#Proto-Dravidian_entries.

• @AleksiB 1945, Pulimaiyi The code dra-ote has been created for Old Telugu. Kutchkutch (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC)