User talk:Emmanuel Asbon
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Translating The Little Lotus Story edit
- Hi, I don't think it'd be absolutely necessary to translate this fairytale into Tamil, most Tamil's who have access to internet can understand English, atleast to an intermediate level. Since this story doesn't seem to have any complex vocabulary, most Tamil people would not find it hard to read it in English. —Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 07:11, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
சுழியம், பூச்சியம், பூஜியம், and பூஜ்யம் edit
It says that சுழியம், பூச்சியம், பூஜியம், and பூஜ்யம் mean "zero", but also that their ordinal number is முதல் (mutal), which (correct me if I am wrong) I believe means "first". Also, I think ௧ is the numerical character meaning "one"; however, it is listed as the numerical character for words meaning "zero".
- Hi, like you mentioned, சுழியம், பூச்சியம், பூஜியம், and பூஜ்யம்; they are mean the same: zero, nothing, empty. And when I saw it, I was confused just like you are, as to why '௧' is used to represent zero, instead of '௦'. You're correct. ௧ strictly represents number 1, it cannot be used for zero.
- Also, 'பூஜியம் and பூஜ்யம்' are just alternative spellings of the word பூச்சியம் which is the Tamilized word of the Sanskrit word pūjya. The reason, I think, the contributor used ௧ for ௦, might be because, the Sanskrit word pujya means, something or someone worthy of worship; venerable. Or you could say, something that deserves first preference. Take 'array' for example, it starts with 0, 1, 2, ... where the 0 is the first place.
- But technically speaking, it's still wrong to write 0 as 1, when there is a ௦ that represents 0.
- And about சுழியம், I don't know the ultimate origin of the word. But it stems from the word சுழி, which means 'circle.'
- —Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response! These pages also state that முதல் (mutal) is the ordinal form of these numbers meaning "zero" - is that true, or is there a different word for the ordinal of zero (zeroth)? Because in my experience முதல் seems to mean "first". Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- In Tamil, zero is not used in a ordinal form, like, it never takes an adjective form: one -> first, two -> second. Even in English, I think that is the case. No one uses zero to represent the first thing. Saying zero is முதல் is not correct. I think that perception comes from the interpretation of the Sanskrit meaning. If you take that away. Zero does not have an ordinal form in Tamil.
- சுழியம் is the shape of the number, where பூச்சியம் is the name of the number. There is one more word that is also used to say zero, it's சைபர் (saibur). But this word is never used in written Tamil.
- To give a more practical example. If you want to say 'You have secured the zeroth place' in Tamil. People would usually say 'Nee mutta vaangiruka.' Which literally translates to 'You secured an egg.' That's the way to say 'zeroth' in Tamil. And to make myself clear, this example is of spoken Tamil.
- If one persistently wants a word for zeroth, you could use பூஜ்யமாவது (pūjyamāvatu), it literally means zero-th. Like saying முதலாவது, இரண்டாவது, மூன்றாவது. While all these words are regularly used in formal speech and written documents, using பூஜ்யமாவது would sound pretentious, even in written Tamil. Because that word doesn't exist in practical sense. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't exactly know how to explain it. But only the nominative part will have the மூஞ்சி, மூஞ்சிகள் form, the rest will change just how மூஞ்சு would change. please note that மூஞ்சி is often considered rude and informal, because of that it doesn't appear in formal works. Even then, the spoken form of the word is மூஞ்சு. Maybe that's why it doesn't have a proper form. மூஞ்சி/மூஞ்சு only appear in colloquial and informal conversations. So, it's practically impossible to try to put it in formal declensions. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 18:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, மூஞ்சுகளை (formal) and மூஞ்சுங்கள (informal/casual). Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 18:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- Alright then. Guess that works too. Also, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that மூஞ்சி/மூஞ்சு is just a corrupt spoken form of the word முகம். So, this could just be made as an alternative form of முகம். But I'm not so sure about it though. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 18:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes ofcourse, I think I read it on quora, it's probably just a folk etymology or a common misconception. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi. Sorry for being dumb and sorry for my errors, but what do you mean that 'வழுக்கு' doesn't have inflections? I looked up some of them, eg "வழுக்கிலிருந்து", etc. and found some results. Prahlad balaji (talk) 03:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, please don't apologise. I'm really happy someone is very interested in contributing Tamil words and I really really appreciate you spending your precious time on it. And about வழுக்கு, this word வழுக்கிலிருந்து may have existed once... Like a couple centuries ago. But, this word doesn't have any meaning in Modern Tamil, when referring to the pulp of tender coconut in spoken form, people tend to use வழுக்கு/வளுக்கு instead of வழுக்கை (vaḻukkai). So, வழுக்கிலிருந்து would mean 'from the pulp' in spoken form. But, in formal or written Tamil, வழுக்கிலிருந்து wouldn't have any meaning whatsoever. And since the declension template generates words only for formal words only, வழுக்கிலிருந்து technically is non-existent. :) Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 04:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Okay but doesn't வழுக்கு also mean slipperiness? That is the top definition. Also, I have moved 'archaic' to the second definition, as I asked some native speakers about it and it seems to be in current usage as 'slipperiness'. Please tell me if this is correct. Prahlad balaji (talk) 05:20, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- வழுக்கு means 'to slip' as in to slip over wet floor or to slip as a result of stepping over something wet. When the word ends with the -u suffix, it strictly refers to the verb form in present day Tamil. It may have meant slipperiness at some point in the past, but, today, if you say வழுக்கு to someone, they'd only assume that you are asking/commanding them to slip on something (presumably intentionally). If you want to use it as a adjective. The -u should be replaced with -al, வழுக்கல். (தரை வழுக்கலாக இருக்கிறது. / The floor is slippery.) You're right that வழுக்கு also refers to slipperiness, but that noun form is archaic and currently not in use. It is never used in everyday life. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, I asked some of my friends about போன்றீயம், what I found out is, it's indeed a legit word, but it was coined only in the early 2000s, that's the reason it's not present in any of the online dictionaries. So, its actually a combination of these words, போன்று (pōṉṟu, “like that of”) + ஈயம் (īyam, “lead”), to mean 'ஈயம் போன்றது (that which looks like lead).' do you think I should take down the rfv and add this info? Or wait until a citation can be found online? Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 07:43, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is explained at Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion#Attestation. Prahlad balaji (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji 2 Yes, depending on the type of noun, -இல் (locative 1) and -இடம் (locative 2) are used. Generally, for nouns that come under living things category, -இடம் is used and for nouns that come under non-living or inanimate things category, -இல் is used. But, sometimes, locative 1 is used for living things too and the same for locative 2.
- Here are some examples,
- என்னிடம் வந்து உட்காரு.
- eṉṉiṭam vantu uṭkāru.
- Come sit with me.
- அண்ணனிடம் பணத்தை கொடு.
- aṇṇaṉiṭam paṇattai koṭu.
- Give the money to big brother.
- பட்டம் மரத்தில் சிக்கியது.
- paṭṭam marattil cikkiyatu.
- The kite got stuck in the tree.
- சாவி வீட்டில் இருக்கிறது.
- cāvi vīṭṭil irukkiṟatu.
- The key is in the house.
- Please note that all these examples are from written/formal Tamil, it's completely different for spoken/informal Tamil.
- Here are the same examples in spoken form,
- என்கிட்ட வந்து ஒக்காரு.
- eṉkiṭṭa vantu okkāru.
- Come sit with me.
- அண்ணாகிட்ட காசு குடு.
- aṇṇākiṭṭa kācu kuṭu.
- Give the money to big brother.
- காத்தாடி மரத்துல சிக்கிடிச்சி.
- kāttāṭi marattula cikkiṭicci.
- The kite got stuck in the tree.
- சாவி வீட்ல இருக்கு.
- cāvi vīṭla irukku.
- The key is in the house.
Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 03:39, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, in a way, you could say that, but most words in Tamil can be affixed with another word or noun. Like for example, you can write it as என்னை எதிர்க்க or என்னையெதிர்க்க. Both are correct and accepted. To give it to you clear, here I have given the translation of this word and its related words so that you can decide it for yourself, since I'm not really a grammar expect. 😅
- எதிர் (etir, “in front of, before, opposite”)
- பள்ளிக்கு எதிரே ஒரு மரம் உள்ளது.
- paḷḷikku etirē oru maram uḷḷatu.
- There's a tree opposite the school.
- எதிரி (etiri, “enemy, foe, competitor”)
- அவன் என்னுடைய பழைய எதிரி.
- avaṉ eṉṉuṭaiya paḻaiya etiri.
- He is an old foe of mine.
- எதிர்க்க (etirkka, “to opposite, to go against, to resist, to barricade”)
- நான் எமனடா! என்னை எதிர்க்க எவனடா?
- nāṉ emaṉaṭā! eṉṉai etirkka evaṉaṭā?
- I am Yama! Who is there to go against me?
- எதிர்த்து (etirttu, “resist, barricade, opposite, stand against”)
- என்னை எதிர்த்து நிற்கத் துணிந்தாயோ?(note that எதிர்த்து most of the times will be followed by நில், like there is no other word in Tamil that can pair with this word. More like a phrase.)
- eṉṉai etirttu niṟkat tuṇintāyō?
- You dare stand against me?
On "Spoken" Tamil edit
Hi, seeing that you're a native, I wanted to ask for your opinion on adding spoken Tamil to Wiktionary. I'm inclining towards adding it as a separate language (or languages, depending on how diverse the dialects are). How would it be represented? Do you think it should be written with the Tamil alphabet, or would it not be sufficient (fx. nasalised vowels) and we should resort to Latin one with diacritics et al? Kritixilithos (talk) 15:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Kritixilithos Hi, I've been thinking about the same lately, since spoken Tamil is very different than formal or written Tamil, it has its own declensions and conjugations for different regions. Also there are numerous spoken Tamil words in Wiktionary categorised as ' colloquial, ' ' dialectal 'or ' informal.' It would be nice to have them categorised as a form of Tamil, but please also note that majority of the Indian languages (Dravidian and Indo-Aryan) are diglossic, and the rest of the languages might also need a category like this. As for the script, the Tamil script would be sufficient enough and exceptions can always be expressed in the pronunciation section. And speaking of dialects, the Indian dialects like the Nellai dialect, Kongu dialect, Iyengar dialect can be spotted almost immediately when the speaker speaks, but it's not so drastically different except for some vocabularies and the accent, and Malaysian/Singaporean dialects doesn't vary much from the Tamil dialects of northern Tamil Nadu, but the Sri Lankan dialects are much more distinct and sometimes even natives from India may find it difficult to understand (still mutually intelligible) since it preserves a lot of the Old Tamil aspects, be it the vocabulary or the pronunciation, etc. You can always message me if you have more queries. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Kritixilithos Hi, just wanted to ask. There are also Middle Tamil words in Wiktionary categorised under Tamil, is there any way to add a langcode for Middle Tamil, like there is one for Middle Kannada (dra-mkn). Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 03:21, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Could you take a look at Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/Non-English#ஃக்? Olaf (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)