Module talk:cu-pronunciation

pronunciation weirdness

See also: Appendix talk:Old Church Slavonic pronunciation

@Atitarev, Vorziblix, Bezimenen, Useigor, Fay Freak, PUC User:ChirumiruChirumiruGenkiChirumiru has done a lot of work on this module, but I am highly skeptical. I don't know Old Church Slavonic very well but the generated pronunciations look very strange to me (see the test cases), and contain a ton of very specific phonetic detail that I am 99.99% positive cannot be sourced to any mainstream literature. Can you comment? The pronunciation has been added to a lot of pages, and I am likely to do a bot run and remove them all unless the pronunciations can be sourced. Benwing2 (talk) 04:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

BTW this same user also made some very strange changes to Module:bg-pronunciation that I reverted. Benwing2 (talk) 04:51, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

> BTW this same user also made some very strange changes to Module:bg-pronunciation that I reverted.

I'd prefer it if you first asked us before reverting changes we've made. We're not trolls and mean no harm.

Works on Bulgarian phonology are incredibly outdated. I can testify as someone who speaks with pronunciation similar to that of the reverted Module:bg-pronunciation that both young and old and eastern and western Bulgarians speak like the changed Module:bg-pronunciation that User:ChirumiruChirumiruGenkiChirumiru has worked on. Огньметъка (talk) 10:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

OCS pronunciation is possible, question is: what is right and what is wrong. Some original manuscripts are lost and remaining copies can contain (un)intentional edits by copyist. 18-22 oldest CS manuscripts (per SS/SNSP) are written in 5 places (per SJS; #Cyr.-Meth., $symeon.): Macedonia [9-10] (#Achr, #As, #Euch, #Mar, #Sin, #SinSluž, #Zogr, $FragZogr, ?Ryl, ?FragHilf), Bulgaria [5] (#Grig, #Sav, #Und, $Supr, ?Chil), Croatia [1] (#$Cloz), Bohemia [1] (#Kij), Russia [0-1] (Kupr), absent [2-4] (?En, ?ZogrPal, ?SinPal, ?Vat). See also:

• Cejtlin, R.M.; Večerka, R.; Blagova, E., editors (1994), “О произношении старославянских букв”, in Staroslavjanskij slovarʹ (po rukopisjam X—XI vekov) [Old Church Slavonic Dictionary (Based on 10–11th Century Manuscripts)], Moscow: Russkij jazyk, page 58
• А. К. Поливанова, editor (2013), “Глава 2. Графика и фонология”, in Старославянский язык. Грамматика. Словари.‎^[2] (in Russian), Moscow: Университет Дмитрия Пожарского, page 12
• А. К. Поливанова, editor (2013), “Таблица IV. Обзор важнейших сегментных особенностей памятников”, in Старославянский язык. Грамматика. Словари.‎^[3] (in Russian), Moscow: Университет Дмитрия Пожарского, page XXIV
• А. К. Поливанова, editor (2013), “§ 117. Альтернативные соотношения в чередовании переходное смягчение”, in Старославянский язык. Грамматика. Словари.‎^[4] (in Russian), Moscow: Университет Дмитрия Пожарского, page 77
• А. К. Поливанова, editor (2013), “§ 895. Девиации синхронной грамматики и эволюции в исторической грамматике”, in Старославянский язык. Грамматика. Словари.‎^[5] (in Russian), Moscow: Университет Дмитрия Пожарского, page 496
• Catherine Mary MacRobert (2018) “Re-evaluating the Psalterium Sinaiticum: the Limitations of Internal Reconstruction as a Text-Critical Method”, in Poznańskie Studia Slawistyczne, volume 14, A1. Removal of frequent or regular West Slavonic *tj > c and *dj > z, page 156 —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 13:17, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I do have concerns about the accuracy pronunciation modules of dead/reconstructed languages. The more phonemic and conservative they are, the better, IMO. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:50, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

@Useigor, Atitarev Thanks. I'm going to give it another day or so and then nuke this module and the references to {{cu-IPA}}. Benwing2 (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Good day

User:ChirumiruChirumiruGenkiChirumiru is not home so he won't be able to respond to you in swift time. He'll be back soon and he'll be able to discuss this. He's got a plethora of plans from what I've heard of him so far and is nowhere near close so I'd like to ask you not to do anything irreversible in the meantime. Thanks --Огньметъка (talk) Огньметъка (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Is there something I'm missing? The user Igor supplied you with multiple resources in my place (which I am grateful for) that describe the same phonology that my module displays. Did you not read them? Or did you expect me to link them personally? In any case, I would like to ask exactly made you so skeptical of my module and I will explain why I've made it like this. Regarding user Anatoli's comment, I have not described any phonetic phenomena that has not been described in literature. I understand that one can not know for certain how a language sounded so far back, but this is as far as the comparative method and written evidence has gotten us, so these pronunciations are as close as it gets. If I'd gotten something wrong or anyone has any suggestions, I would've much preferred if someone pointed it out and we could've discussed it and fixed it. The way you dealt with the matter was barbaric and I do not appreciate it. ChirumiruChirumiruGenkiChirumiru (talk) 08:40, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Proto-Slavic entries with IPA pronunciation

@Benwing2, Atitarev, Vorziblix, Bezimenen, Useigor, Fay Freak, PUC

Good day, friends. Sorry to bother you again by reopening this issue but I've noticed that a few entries in Proto-slavic and Old Rus' pages have recently gained IPA transcriptionsː

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Proto-Slavic_terms_with_IPA_pronunciation

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Old_East_Slavic_terms_with_IPA_pronunciation

That is wonderful in my opinion but it saddens me to see this after the direct rejection of Chirumiru's project. However, it also fills me with hope that maybe you can reconsider and allow us to continue working further on this. Both of us have recently been refining our view on a lot of things. Anyhow, I await with joy your response. Have a nice dayǃ Ѻгн҄еметꙑн҄и/Ogňemetyňi (talk) 08:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)