Reference templatesEdit

Please do not change the formatting of templates without discussion. They should be convenient for the people who use them most frequently. Besides, your edit broke the linking when the page numbers are given through |pages=. Vahag (talk) 11:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Have I already said that I hate these edits, for the same reasons as Vahagn has just written? And who is even thinking about employing the page number first and then the volume number? A volume number is closely related to the title of a book and hence should be closer to the name by which the book is invoked as a template, and in general I think explicit enough to specify volume and page by named parameters which you remove, in favour of your bizarre order. Go into Category:Arabic reference templates and see how linking templates actually work best. Fay Freak (talk) 11:29, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
The order is not mine and is not bizarre. I'm not the first (1=head, 2=page) and not the last (1=head, 2=page, 3=volume). Address can be expressed in 2 ways: 1. Specific first - from narrow to broad (house, town, country), 2. General first - from broad to narrow (country, town, house). For dictionaries, specific is preferable, because: 1. Some dictionaries become digital and don't require page and volume parameters anymore, 2. Usually entry name is enough to compute (with Lua/JavaScript) page and volume. —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, i was planning to start using this template but it had no documentation and its code is messy. I don't want to search and memorize different parameters names, so for me it was easier to rewrite to make it predictable and to conform to other Slavic templates. Template is rarely used (14 usages: 7 - 2016, 2 - 2017, 1 - 2018, 0 - 2019, 0 - 2020, 1 - 2021, 3 - 2022) and only user is Vahagn Petrosyan. And btw, please include entry name when you use template, don't make others spend time to find what exact entry you mean (e.g. کور - ḱor, кувшин - kovš).
Entry Original usage Original code Reverted new
*bystrъ 2016.02.20 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=113}} --
глупый 2016.02.21 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=309}} --
*kъňiga 2016.02.21 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=664}} --
glup 2016.02.21 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=309}} {{R:sla:SEW|glupъ|308|1}}
дудка 2016.02.21 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=233}} {{R:sla:SEW|duda|233|1}}
кучма 2016.04.30 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=637}} --
калека 2016.06.03 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=473}} {{R:sla:SEW|kalěka|473|1}}
maraj 2017.02.20 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=II|page=73}} --
μαρούλιον 2017.12.10 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=II|page=21}} {{R:sla:SEW|marúľa|21|2}}
کور 2018.03.08 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=680}} {{R:sla:SEW|ḱor|680|1}}
карман 2021.11.11 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=490}} {{R:sla:SEW|karman|490|1}}
кувшин 2022.07.04 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=594}} {{R:sla:SEW|kovš|594|1}}
κῦρ 2022.07.10 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=505}} --
κυρά 2022.07.10 Vahagn Petrosyan {{R:sla:SEW|vol=I|page=505}} --
Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Only a minority of templates uses the formatting that you prefer, and those too were mostly changed recently from my preferred formatting by you or ZomBear. Anyway, we don't have to argue which standard is better. You can add your parameters as alternatives to |volume=, |page=, and |pages=. Vahag (talk) 14:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Apart from the fact that it is a non sequitur: “Specific first” is not possible in so far as the title of the book, the most general, is invoked first, before the positional parameters. But it may be contentious whether the entry name must be the first or the third. In any case I spell out the parameters, |volume=, |page=, and |pages= and |entry= more than anybody else, whereby it should be predictable that a template will work. Preferrably without requiring the input to be natural numbers but only it having a string starting with one, as we also give ranges: {{R:ar:Mandaville}} often has relevant content at many dispersed pages, you will say that it is peculiar but one should not try to assess the quality of the content of a book too much to predict how its reference template will work, as thinking about the entries to be edited is hard enough: somehow virtually all of my templates work like Vahagn imagines intuitively and yours drive us up the wall. Fay Freak (talk) 19:31, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
1) I was describing parameters order. If template name is included, then rule is: first node (+1, template name) and last node (-1, entry name) are most important, intermediate nodes are less/not important. Template/entry name is used to distinguish one template/entry from another. 2) Named parameters are wordy, can vary (depending on its creator) and use local language (depending on wiktionary). 3) I prefer to use templates that provide link to entry, because any reader should be able to check reference without wasting time on searching the book and the entry. In case of {{R:ar:Mandaville}}, i would divide {{R:ar:Mandaville|B|pages=118, 288, 315}} to {{R:ar:Mandaville|B|page=118}}{{R:ar:Mandaville|B|page=288}}{{R:ar:Mandaville|B|page=315}} and specify the entry/section name (expecting that it can be accessed some day, completely or partly).
named +1 +2 +3 +4 unnamed +1 -1 -2 -3
{{R:template|entry=ENTRY}} {{R:template|ENTRY}}
{{R:template|page=PAGE|entry=ENTRY}} {{R:template|ENTRY|PAGE}}
{{R:template|volume=VOLUME|page=PAGE|entry=ENTRY}} {{R:template|ENTRY|PAGE|VOLUME}}
Names (orange is undocumented)
+1 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 Other
{{R:Kriaras Medieval}} 1/[2] -- -- -- -- --
{{R:pra:Sheth}} 1 2 -- -- -- --
{{R:lv:LEV}} 1 2/page vol -- -- pages, passage
{{R:ine:LIV}} 1/head 2/page -- -- -- pages, passage
{{R:ira:ESIJa}} 1/head 2/page vol -- -- pages, passage
{{R:inc:EWAia}} 1/head 2/page vol/volume -- -- pages, passage
{{R:ar:Wehr-4}} 1/entry page -- -- -- pages, passage
{{R:nl:EWN}} 1 page vol/volume -- -- pages, 2/passage
{{R:Babiniotis 2010}} 1 page -- -- -- pages
{{R:Cunliffe}} head page -- -- -- pages
{{R:cel:EDPC}} head/entry 1/page -- -- -- 2, pages, passage
{{R:TMN}} entry page [section] vol/volume -- pages, passage
{{R:trk:Rasanen}} entry page -- -- -- pages, passage
{{R:hit:Kloekhorst:2008}} 2/head 1/page -- -- -- pages, passage
{{R:sla:EDSIL}} 2/head 1/page/p -- -- -- pages, 3/passage
{{R:FEW}} 3/head/title/alt 2/page 1/vol/volume -- -- passage, comment
{{R:Partridge New}} 1/entry 3/page 2/volume edition -- pages, 4/passage/text, ...
{{R:Oxford English Dictionary}} 1/entry 4/column 3/page [part] 2/volume columns, pages, 5/passage/text, ...
{{R:sa:MW}} head/entry column page -- -- ..., columns, pages, ..., passage
{{R:English Dialect Dictionary}} 1/entry column 3/page -- -- columns, pages, passage, 2/pos/part of speech, ...
{{R:SOED}} 1/entry column 3/page 2/volume -- columns, pages, 4/passage/text, ...
Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 13:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)