Talk:米汝

@Mar vin kaiser, what is your source for using these characters to write "beer" for mainstream Taiwanese? Having trouble finding support. Hongthay (talk) 00:18, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

It's in 闽南方言大词典. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:53, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't have access to that at the moment but I am not finding support for this form in any of MoE, Tw-Ch, Maryknoll, or TDJ. Hongthay (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Would you mind giving the pronunciation(s) that is in your source? Does it list all that are being listed on this page? Hongthay (talk) 05:06, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser. As convenient as it may be to bring all the pronunciations under one entry, it seems a bit off to do this if the source does not explicitly include all the variants. Though the source may use 米汝, this is not getting support from either the multiple Taiwanese-specific dictionaries above, nor a casual internet search, making it appear unreliable. Hongthay (talk) 05:43, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Hongthay Of course the Taiwanese don't actually use 米汝 in writing that specific word. If they had to write it in Min Nan, they'd either use 麥仔酒, which is a different word, or write the POJ of 米汝. As you can see, all the variant pronunciations are too similar to be different words, and are therefore, just alternate pronunciations of a single word. Actually, they're just POJ approximations of the actual word, since the word doesn't exactly correspond to any Chinese characters, per se. Therefore, the reasons for including all the variant pronunciations in this entry is that the word 米汝 in 闽南方言大词典 was meant to represent the Taiwanese Min Nan word for beer borrowed from Japanese, and all the variant pronunciations correspond to just one Min Nan word, which the Taiwanese Min Nan word for beer borrowed from Japanese, and that 米汝 are the Chinese characters to represent this word, as published by the said dictionary. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:59, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Hongthay, Mar vin kaiser: I believe the Taiwanese usually write 啤酒 for this word, as seen in song lyrics (e.g. 愛情啤酒 by 許富凱), Tw-Ch and the output given by MOE Tai-lo IME when bilu is typed. Another option is 啤露, also used in Taiwanese Hakka. I think these two are better than 米汝 for the main entry. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser, Justinrleung. Thank you J for the input. I would add that after reviewing WT:CFI, my take is that 米汝 doesn't appear to make the cut for inclusion, and 捏居帶 may not either. Hongthay (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Usage of "啤酒" to represent "bi-ru" in Wiktionary is somewhat problematic, because there is already a Min Nan pronunciation of 啤酒. Furthermore, the Taiwanese people do use several ways to write Min Nan, which we don't use in Wiktionary, because they're a result of a lack of standardization, so I think there's a preference of using words published in dictionaries, or prescribed characters by the Taiwanese government. Since the Taiwanese government didn't prescribe any character for "bi-ru", that's why the next step is to look at dictionaries, and 米汝 is the only one I found. As I said, it is obvious that all the pronunciations are just slight variants of one Taiwanese Min Nan word, so it is reasonable for all of them to be contained in one entry. And my take on it is to use 米汝 because it's the only Chinese character rendition of "bi-ru" I can find in an actually published dictionary. Other options include "啤露" and "必汝". The first one is used in Hakka, if I'm not mistaken, but I think we should find a source using it in Min Nan before we use it for Min Nan. Or do we acknowledge that they're technically the same word in different languages, and merge them anyway? I don't know. The second option, I found that on the Internet used by Taiwanese, although I don't think there is anything published that uses this. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser:, thank you for your response. It seems your contribution was made in good faith WT:AGF, but because this is probably not the appropriate title, I have requested deletion. Hongthay (talk) 04:16, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

@Hongthay It's alright. I understand your concern of it being found only in one entry. But for me, the thing is that 闽南方言大词典 is the most, if not the most, comprehensive dictionary/reference on Hokkien/Min Nan. It mostly contains words used in Mainland China (specifically Quanzhou, Xiamen, and Zhangzhou) while also elaborating on district-specific dialects in the latter part. It also has a section of Taiwanese-specific words at the start and that's where I got 米汝 and 捏居帶. I understand that Taiwanese don't use these characters in this context, but in my opinion, since I would say that 闽南方言大词典 is really in the Top 3, if not Top 1, of possible references for Min Nan, I think we shouldn't ignore its contents, specifically, 米汝 and 捏居帶 Oh yeah, I'm not sure where the debate for deletion is. Could you link it to me? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser It's here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

RFD discussion: August 2016–January 2017

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

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米汝

Neither a common misspelling nor variant spelling. This spelling is not verifiable in any of the following references for Taiwanese Hokkien: MoE, Tw-Ch, Maryknoll, or Tai-nichi Dai Jiten. Appears to be a one-off from one author in one publication. Refer to article talk page. Hongthay (talk) 04:11, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

(copy pasted from the talk page of the article) I understand your concern of it being found only in one entry. But for me, the thing is that 闽南方言大词典 is the most, if not the most, comprehensive dictionary/reference on Hokkien/Min Nan. It mostly contains words used in Mainland China (specifically Quanzhou, Xiamen, and Zhangzhou) while also elaborating on district-specific dialects in the latter part. It also has a section of Taiwanese-specific words at the start and that's where I got 米汝. I understand that Taiwanese don't use these characters in this context, but in my opinion, I would say that 闽南方言大词典 is really in the Top 3, if not Top 1, of possible references for Min Nan. Considering how few super complete dictionaries are in Min Nan, this is like a Min Nan Bible. I dare say that it's the most complete. Therefore, I think we shouldn't ignore its contents, specifically, 米汝. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:32, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Keep, if the term is in 闽南方言大词典. Verifying Min Nan or any Chinese term, which is not standard Chinese or Mandarin is not easy. With Min Nan specifically - both for various spellings in Chinese characters and in POJ (Pe̍h-ōe-jī).

BTW, @Mar vin kaiser, are you able to check if Min Nan POJ "tha-khú-sih" spelling or a similar term for "taxi" is in this dictionary and has a Chinese character form, please? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev Thanks. By the way, the way 闽南方言大词典 wrote the word "taxi", the word in Taiwanese Hokkien that was borrowed from Japanese, is 塔區蝕。Although the pronunciation transcription is "thah-khú-sih", obviously that's just an approximation. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser. Thanks. Perhaps POJ should be "thah-khu-si̍h", not "tha-khú-sih", to match "塔區蝕"? Could you also check "bá-sirh" ("bus") in the dictionary, please? I've got a Min Nan-Mandarin-Japanese phrasebook (with CD) "台湾語会話フレーズブック". remarkably, there is no single Min Nan word in it written in POJ, all words are written in Chinese characters. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev I see no need to match the POJ with the Chinese characters, since what we need is actual pronunciations. For bá-suh (-sirh), I think it could just be 巴士 (see [1], [2], [3]). For tha-khú-sih, it's more commonly written as 塔庫西. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:22, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I actually agree that if there's a common character rendering for these Japanese borrowings, that should be the one considered. Although it should be noted that for 塔庫西, it's based on using Mandarin pronunciations of the characters to approximate the pronunciation in Hokkien. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

That's not surprising since education in Taiwan is mainly in Mandarin. This phenomenon can be seen in many words, like 今嘛 (for 這馬). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:05, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

No consensus to delete. Note that the RfV discussion remains open and unresolved. bd2412 T 14:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Deleted through RfV for lack of verification. bd2412 T 18:07, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

RFV discussion: July 2016–January 2017

See Talk:捏居帶#RFV discussion: July 2016–January 2017.