Talk:elf
This is Iro from Wikipedia (I don't know why the accounts don't transfer) and I'm going to expand the definition with three subsections:
Norse Alfar (Ljosalfar)
English folkloric Elves
Fantasy elves taken after Tolkien's Eldar (which, for all intensive purposes, were Alfar) — This unsigned comment was added by 66.137.180.126 (talk) at 21:56, 3 July 2005 (UTC).
- Hm, wouldn't they be written with an acute accent? E.g. Singular: [ljós]álfur, plural: [ljós]álfar? --BiT 14:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- None of that matters though. This is not wikipedia. Also, it says here Elves are Norse. That is totally false! 120.29.109.137 16:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Plurals edit
The original (and still valid) plural of Elf is elfs. The common (fantasy) plural is elves which was coined by J.R.R. Tolkien. I'm not certain where to put this information so I'm leaving a note for anyone who has a better grasp of the page structure. — This unsigned comment was added by 69.144.200.226 (talk) at 05:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC).
This is not correct. You are thinking of "dwarfs". The plural of elf has always been "elves" (previously spelt "elues" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=elfs%2Celues%2Celves&year_start=1600&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 Elf was subject to regular fricative voicing in the plural. For this reason I would advocate the removal of the "now non-nonstandard "elfs"" in the English section. — This unsigned comment was added by Secondus2 (talk • contribs) at 09:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC).
- Elfs is an obsolete plural; it is included because Wiktionary does not only cover current English. (See the quotations.) J3133 (talk) 09:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- Is there any evidence that "elfs" is an obsolete form and not just an occasional error? As a comparison, here is an ngram graph for plural forms for "wolf" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wolfs%2Cwolves%2Cwolues&year_start=1600&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3
- Should we edit the Wiktionary entry for "wolf" to note that "wolfs" is a non-standard plural, just because it appears a few times? Secondus2 (talk) 10:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: It does not only appear a few times; numerous quotations exist during this period for elfs, including by esteemed writers; and it is listed in the Oxford English Dictionary. J3133 (talk) 10:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- OED lists a single instance of "elfs" from John Dryden in 1700. It also lists a single instance of "elvis" which is not mentioned in the Wiktionary entry.
- The OED entry for "wolf" also lists a single instance of "wolfs", as well as many other non-standard plurals, such as "woluys" "woluez" and "wolwes". As far as I can see, Wiktionary only lists non-standard plurals if they are or were at some point a common form, and I cannot see any evidence of that for "elfs". Secondus2 (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: The use by Dryden is not isolated; as I have mentioned, there are numerous quotations (the evidence) from that period, but I do not think you have looked at them (aside from the quotations in the entry itself). And Wiktionary does list non-standard plurals: see basis, box, calf, curriculum vitae, cursus, deer, die, double entendre, fetus, guy, magnum opus, mongoose, ox, plurale tantum, prima donna, rhinoceros, seraph, sheep, taxon, virus. J3133 (talk) 11:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see the numerous quotations that you're referring to. There's the one from OED, and the Blanchard Jerrold one in the entry. Are there any other notable quotations?
- I don't have a problem at all with listing non-standard plurals, but I don't see much evidence that "elfs" was ever a particularly common or notable non-standard plural in comparison to other plurals of "elf" or to other non-standard plurals in words where none are listed in the Wiktionary entry. Secondus2 (talk) 14:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: Most of the ones I listed have plurals that were never particularly common. What makes elfs an exception, instead of oxes, calfs, etc.? Also see The Grand Gazetter (1760, “the Devaſtations under the Goths, Guelphs, and Gibelines [whence ſome would derive the Terms of Elfs (or Elves) or Fairies, and Goblins (or Hobgoblins) or Spectres, &c.] […]”), Chronicle of Scottish Poetry (1802, “Farefolkis, fairies, elfs, or elves; […]”), A Dictionary of the English Language (1818, “ELF.† n. s. plural elfs and elves.”) That it is mentioned as a standard alternative already makes it more notable than the others. J3133 (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for the additional examples. I'm surprised it was noted as a standard alternative given the very low frequency we see on Google's Ngram viewer, but I'm happy to let the issue lie. Secondus2 (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: I have added a usage note with details regarding the plurals, along with many quotations and references, some of which are A Pronouncing and Explanatory Dictionary of the English Language (1835, “Pl. elfs and elves”), Elements of English Grammar (1844, “Elf changes in the plural into elfs or elves; […]”), Remarks on the Subject of Language (1850, “These Picts are the Clan Alpin, the Alps, or Elfs or Elves,—[…]”), Shakespeare’s Puck (1852, “The next species of these airy nothings are the elfs, or elves; […]”), The History of England (1868, “The elfs or elves were inhabitants of the fields and groves, […]”), A Grammar of the English Language (1883, “To this general rule, the great diversity of English usage will furnish exceptions; thus we have both elfs and elves, […]”), “On the Plural of Substantives in English” (1885, “Wherever this struggle has not come to an end, both plural forms are occasionally found, as in elfs and elves, […]”), Writing and Thinking (1941, “Nouns ending in -f are so variable in the plural (loaf: loaves, but chief: chiefs; dwarf: dwarfs; elf: elfs or elves) […]”), Modern Grammar at Work (1944, “A very few nouns ending in -f or -fe may be pluralized either by adding -s or by changing f or fe to v and adding -es: “scarf,” “scarfs” or “scarves”; “wharf,” “wharfs” or “wharves”; “staff,” “staffs” or “staves”; “elf,” “elfs” or “elves”; “hoof,” “hoofs” or “hooves.””), A Treasury for Word Lovers (1983, “Others have been dignified with two forms, both in good usage—elfs and elves, hoofs and hooves, scarfs and scarves, staffs and staves.”), The Norse Myths (2010, “Alfs [elfs]: Another name for the elfs or elves”). Elfs should have never been considered to be removed. J3133 (talk) 22:21, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot for adding that, and for looking into this so thoroughly, much appreciated. Secondus2 (talk) 10:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: I have added a usage note with details regarding the plurals, along with many quotations and references, some of which are A Pronouncing and Explanatory Dictionary of the English Language (1835, “Pl. elfs and elves”), Elements of English Grammar (1844, “Elf changes in the plural into elfs or elves; […]”), Remarks on the Subject of Language (1850, “These Picts are the Clan Alpin, the Alps, or Elfs or Elves,—[…]”), Shakespeare’s Puck (1852, “The next species of these airy nothings are the elfs, or elves; […]”), The History of England (1868, “The elfs or elves were inhabitants of the fields and groves, […]”), A Grammar of the English Language (1883, “To this general rule, the great diversity of English usage will furnish exceptions; thus we have both elfs and elves, […]”), “On the Plural of Substantives in English” (1885, “Wherever this struggle has not come to an end, both plural forms are occasionally found, as in elfs and elves, […]”), Writing and Thinking (1941, “Nouns ending in -f are so variable in the plural (loaf: loaves, but chief: chiefs; dwarf: dwarfs; elf: elfs or elves) […]”), Modern Grammar at Work (1944, “A very few nouns ending in -f or -fe may be pluralized either by adding -s or by changing f or fe to v and adding -es: “scarf,” “scarfs” or “scarves”; “wharf,” “wharfs” or “wharves”; “staff,” “staffs” or “staves”; “elf,” “elfs” or “elves”; “hoof,” “hoofs” or “hooves.””), A Treasury for Word Lovers (1983, “Others have been dignified with two forms, both in good usage—elfs and elves, hoofs and hooves, scarfs and scarves, staffs and staves.”), The Norse Myths (2010, “Alfs [elfs]: Another name for the elfs or elves”). Elfs should have never been considered to be removed. J3133 (talk) 22:21, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for the additional examples. I'm surprised it was noted as a standard alternative given the very low frequency we see on Google's Ngram viewer, but I'm happy to let the issue lie. Secondus2 (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: Most of the ones I listed have plurals that were never particularly common. What makes elfs an exception, instead of oxes, calfs, etc.? Also see The Grand Gazetter (1760, “the Devaſtations under the Goths, Guelphs, and Gibelines [whence ſome would derive the Terms of Elfs (or Elves) or Fairies, and Goblins (or Hobgoblins) or Spectres, &c.] […]”), Chronicle of Scottish Poetry (1802, “Farefolkis, fairies, elfs, or elves; […]”), A Dictionary of the English Language (1818, “ELF.† n. s. plural elfs and elves.”) That it is mentioned as a standard alternative already makes it more notable than the others. J3133 (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: The use by Dryden is not isolated; as I have mentioned, there are numerous quotations (the evidence) from that period, but I do not think you have looked at them (aside from the quotations in the entry itself). And Wiktionary does list non-standard plurals: see basis, box, calf, curriculum vitae, cursus, deer, die, double entendre, fetus, guy, magnum opus, mongoose, ox, plurale tantum, prima donna, rhinoceros, seraph, sheep, taxon, virus. J3133 (talk) 11:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Secondus2: It does not only appear a few times; numerous quotations exist during this period for elfs, including by esteemed writers; and it is listed in the Oxford English Dictionary. J3133 (talk) 10:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
@Kosinvita: The usage note is not “false and misleading”. A random spike in the Google Ngram Viewer, especially in the 16th century, is known for being unreliable. Searching Google Books for “elfs” during these years shows mostly Latin texts, OCR errors, seemingly without a single result of the English plural. Elves has been used since Middle English, instead of elfs. J3133 (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Telugu term for "elf" edit
Not adding a ping since the IP seems to not be static: are there any usage examples of ఋభువు for elf, or is this an attempt at translating the concept on your own? MSG17 (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2023 (UTC)