Talk:kaharian

Classical Tagalog

@Mlgc1998 Not sure if you see my pings in the edits, but you can do it like that. For Classical Tagalog, perhaps good for alternative forms. That's what Spanish does with past spellings. It's actually useful to have it lol, since we don't have a dictionary that shows how it's spelled in older Spanish-period publications. Spanish entries also do this since 16th century Spanish was spelled differently. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:24, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: The ping in the edit didn't go through. Yeah the many different archaic classical tagalog terms are sometimes spelled differently in different texts too or just having a diacritic somewhere. Sometimes, they're misspelled too and sometimes we can't know for sure if that's the spelling they had in mind or they just misspelled it if they didn't use that word ever again. In Doctrina Christiana, they sometimes spelled panginoon as either "pagninoon" or "panginoon", both multiple times. Also, the old texts written that way also contain a lot of the Spanish terms spelled in that era of Spanish to how it's used the same way now but spelled in how it is today. There's page there I saw that used "magconfesar" for which the modern term is "magkumpisal" now, but I suppose that's how Taglish works too with our code-switching now with the inclination to use conjugations, but yeah, that's how the relationship was before in spanish colonial times where the form of classical tagalog treated spanish like we treat english today, and I presume this was also how they treated old Malay around a thousand years ago or so. And yeah, the Spanish of the early times during around 15th-17th century Spanish was Early Modern Spanish. This was a problem before when I tried to read some Spanish pages of the Boxer Codex, cuz I was trying to figure out how they described the illustrations there, but when I tried to have it translated to Spanish speakers, they couldn't read any of it and so no one tried to help me with that on that app. I presume the difficulty was both the handwriting and the spelling and the archaic words, so from a glance, it looked alien even to them, unless i presume the text was clearer and the person reading it was more informed of the context of these words. There are actually youtube videos where people(I assume massive history or language nerds too) recite sentences or text in what they deemed as different stages of the language. They did this often with the major languages like English, Spanish, French, German, etc. They did this in ABAlphaBeta's channel and yes, those videos too were very particular about each stage even if it didn't change that radically much. In that light, most if not all languages are indeed like this with their own historical complicated stage evolutions and some are even characteristically more finicky and rapidly changing throughout the generations even, enough that they don't care if someone documented the instance stage of that language at that time or they were cool without anybody writing about it. But, that's just how humans are and languages are basically like people. Not everyone has the most detailed wiki page or social media profile detailing their lives. --Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:57, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I also wasn't the one who originally added the classical tagalog tag. I think it was someone named KevinUp, who saw what I was talking about last year and just did it himself.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:01, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Oh ok, sorry, but anyway, it's useful also to catalogue all the old variant spellings. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:06, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser, Mlgc1998: I have been adding old spellings as found in editions of the Vocabulario de la lengua tagala, but as obsolete spellings. I think we should better follow how old Shakespearian English spellings are handled here.

Again, there is a distinction between code-switching and borrowing. Why magconfesar (present mangkumpisal) came to being is to fill a gap in the Tagalog vocabulary of that time, as Christianity is introduced. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Again, I think you didn't quite get why I was mentioning code-switching. I was mentioning about code-switching precisely of the distinction your thinking that code-switching, like much of what we consider as Taglish today, is not officially part of the language as opposed to the borrowings that are now officially part of the language, yet people still kept on doing it with the historical foreign prestige language they dealt with at that time to precisely fill in the gap in the vocabulary you mentioned, which is how we have this history how Tagalog for centuries or even a millennia can later consider these words as officially part of the language after such time and the changing of these words have changed enough that they've been accepted as part of the language as borrowings centuries later. What we consider a lot of the borrowings now that are officially part of the language, were once at one point centuries ago all considered mere code-switching as not part of the language, and this happened per historical period where Old Tagalog mainly dealt with Old Malay, Classical Tagalog mainly dealt with Early Modern Spanish and Modern Spanish, and today, Modern Tagalog (Filipino) mainly deals with English. It would be plausible that even centuries from now, some of the words of what we consider today as mere Taglish code-switching, they may eventually transform enough in the language or eventually just be accepted later on as officially part of the language even as borrowings.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I have no idea why would you have to say that to me, but that's sound nonsense, plus I'm put off of all your TL;DR replies. Do you want @Mar vin kaiser: to lecture you about what is code-switching or borrowing? Stop wasting time. Just because Tagalog wasn't standardized yet doesn't mean foreign vocabulary is just part of code-switching (and that concept wasn't invented yet). Also, the earliest Tagalog dictionaries like the Vocabulario have recorded Spanish borrowings that have been incorporated already into the language. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)