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User talk:Mlgc1998

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Again, welcome! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:00, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

女的 and 男的Edit

Hi Mlgc1998, I'm just wondering if these two terms are actually used as "woman" and "man" in Philippine Hokkien. Can you say something like 伊是一個女的/男的? Also, I'm wondering if the tones are correct - in other varieties of Hokkien, 的 would usually be --ê (neutral tone) in cases like these. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:00, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: We use it more specifically to distinguish between male and female, which doesn't necessarily have to be an adult man or woman, but you could use it to call a female/girl/woman, male/guy/boy/man regardless of age in general, so I can say something like 你是男的抑是女的嗎? 若是男的,許個女的說你著買男的的衫,了去男的的廁所穿衫。(dí sī lâm--ê á-sǐ dú--ê ba? nǎ-sǐ lâm--ê, hi-gê dú--ê seh dí tio̍h bóe lâm--ê ê saⁿ, diáu khì lâm--ê ê chhè-só͘ chhng saⁿ.) (Are you a boy or a girl? If you are a boy, that lady said you should buy guy's clothes, then go to the male's comfort room to change clothes.) I think 伊是一個女的/男的? can do too. I'm not sure about tones since I'm not quite good at hearing them right and I've only been taught the 4 tones they taught for mandarin at school besides what I've always heard hokkien words that somewhat echo in my mind when I remember them to be said but the way we say 女的 is kind of like doo-weh so maybe that's like dú--ê, and 男的 is kind of like laa-meh so I guess that's like lâm--ê. I guess the two 的 in 男的的衫 sounds different like laa-meh ê saa, where the 男 in 男的 has more emphasis and its 的 is a bit overshadowed, then the following 的衫 picks up the emphasis again.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 21:18, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
(Perhaps you could add some Philippine Hokkien usage examples to entries, like the above to entries. It could clarify things and also be interesting. —Suzukaze-c 21:49, 15 September 2019 (UTC))
@Suzukaze-c: Ok, I'll add also to other Ph. Hok. specific words if I can find a nice common sentence/phrase/expression about the context.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the examples. I've made some edits to fix some formatting problems, so please keep those in mind when you add more examples :D — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:56, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

jabónEdit

This word was still pronounced with /ʃ/ in early modern Spanish. The fact that a loanword has s or sh does not mean that it was loaned from Old Spanish. The Old Spanish period ended in the 1400s, before there was any contact with most of these languages. --Lvovmauro (talk) 12:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh ok, I'll just specify on the descendant pages that it was from specifically Early Modern Spanish, since most of these languages first came in contact during the 1500s.Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Etymology chainsEdit

Hi, I just wanted to let you know that in etymology chains, the first argument of {{inh}}, {{bor}} or {{der}} should be the language of the entry, not the language where the derivation happened. See my edits on sabon. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

bor vs. der for Classical TagalogEdit

Your edit comment on this edit implies that you're treating Classical Tagalog as a separate language, rather than a stage in the history of Tagalog. That's not the way it's done in other Tagalog entries (see About Tagalog). To follow that to its logical conclusion, you would have to say that the modern form was inherited from Classical Tagalog, which borrowed it from Spanish. I don't think the system would let you do that- assuming that we have a language code for Classical Tagalog, the system would give you an error message stating that a language can't inherit from itself.

Yes, the standard language changed in 1897, but we have to look at the whole language. If you think about it, I really doubt that any of the Tagalog dialects changed much in 1897 when they suddenly became dialects of Pilipino (or whatever its original name was). There are extremely rare occasions when we've decided to overlook the linguistic realities in favor of political ones- Indonesian as separate from Malay is an obvious example- but that's only when a consensus was formed through discussion. As of now Classical Tagalog is just Tagalog as far as Wiktionary is concerned, and saying otherwise in etymologies makes your etymologies inconsistent with everyone else's. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I know these are all stages of the language and {{bor}} and {{der}} are ambiguous at best at defining these, but how do we best show loanwords that were borrowed centuries ago, as opposed to borrowings that were just borrowed decades or a few years ago. Where does one draw a line on this? {{der}} just says that it's a "catch-all" template for terms that were created in an ancestor. Hindu and Arabic loanwords were borrowed almost a millennium ago during Old Tagalog. Spanish and Chinese loanwords were borrowed during Classical Tagalog. English loanwords were borrowed during Modern Tagalog (Filipino), which is displayed in the use of Taglish and Coño English that is the mainstream casual language today around the Philippines. {{bor}} explained in their example that the Modern English entry that were borrowed from Anglo-Norman French in Middle English would not use {{bor}}, but the Middle English one would.
Classical Tagalog is basically Middle Tagalog or the period when Old Tagalog, that previously took on hindu and arabic influences and wrote in baybayin, started taking in Spanish (and some Chinese and a hand few Japanese) loanwords, was using a different spelling standard like using c instead of k, used diacritics, and started writing in latin letters. By 1897, the KKK revolutionaries declared their revolution and their changes to the language, which changed the spelling standard, removed the diacritics, formalized the official alphabet, and cemented the Spanish, Chinese, and Japanese loanwords into their own forms into the modern language that was basically the Manila dialect of Tagalog that became the Modern Tagalog standard that we now call in schools across the country as "Filipino".
The dialects in the provinces like in Marinduque, Nueva Ecija, Batangas, Quezon/Tayabas, Bulacan, etc. were more conservative and kept many old words that the common filipino from Metro Manila and nearby surroundings would no longer use or recognize. It's a common thing that people gloss over even to people here to not realize how different the other dialects can be to the mainstream Tagalog of the capital, since people almost never hear these dialects used outside their tight-knit communities. For example, where Modern Manila Tagalog(Filipino) would say "Tútulungan ba kayó ni Hilario?", Marinduqueño Tagalog would say "Atulungan ga kamo ni Hilario?". Where Modern Manila Tagalog(Filipino) would say "Ang hindi marunong lumingon sa pinanggalingan ay hindi makararating sa paroroonan.", Tayabas(Quezon) Tagalog would say "Ang hindi maalam lumingon sa pinaroonan ay hindi makakarating sa paroroonan." Here is a video of the Nueva Ecija dialect. They have different particles, conjugations, vocabulary and spellings that is otherwise alien to the common filipino of the capital, with only a similar grammar and cognates that tellingly shows that they're dialects. Modern Tagalog is the one that currently borrows many English terms since the American colonial times for modern concepts, which many remain outside yet due to the widespread acceptance of code-switching and it being considered part of "Taglish" instead. The common origin of both these dialects and Modern Tagalog (Filipino) is Classical Tagalog. Classical Tagalog didn't only produce Modern Tagalog and it's nearby provincial Tagalog dialects, it was also one of the components that factored into both the Chavacano dialects of nearby Cavite and Ternate, also one of which that combined into the modern Davaoeño language with Cebuano Bisaya as its base in Mindanao, and the one that produced the Paranan and Kasiguranin language to it's northeastern hinterlands around Aurora province in Luzon, and etc. These were all separate to the modern Tagalog that people know in the capital, which today many aren't able to even speak pure Modern Tagalog/Filipino without slipping an English word, but those in the provinces and conservative churches still speak in a purer Tagalog that would otherwise be regarded as too deep and purist. It's actually taught as a mandatory lesson for all highschool Filipino classes in their 1st and 2nd year in the Philippines to teach Classical Tagalog works like Ibong Adarna and Florante at Laura. Here are some texts of what they look like in Project Gutenberg: Ibong Adarna and Florante at Laura. This is why when you're in highschool here, people tend to just read summaries online or just listen to teachers discuss them rather than actually reading through that deep vocabulary. Here's also an online pdf copy of the Doctrina Christiana during the Classical Tagalog era, along with the Spanish and Baybayin of the era: Doctrina Christiana. I'm not sure if people have added Old and Classical Tagalog in wiktionary but to catch that ambiguity in the timeline, I'd just use {{der}} for old borrowings and {{bor}} for definitely recent borrowings. The etymologies I put in don't show the difference to readers anyways if its in {{der}} or {{bor}}, since it would just plainly look like "From ..." and the category templates seem to categorize them to both categories whichever I put them in.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Classical Tagalog and Old Tagalog are currently treated as etymology-only languages on Wiktionary. In future, it is possible to have them upgraded as full languages.
For now, if you would like to add words attested in Classical or Old Tagalog texts at the etymology section, you may use:
  1. From {{der|tl|tl-cls|Word spelled in Classical Tagalog}}, from {{der|tl|es|Word spelled in Spanish}}.
  2. From {{der|tl|tl-old|Word spelled in Old Tagalog}}, from {{der|tl|sa|Word spelled in Sanskrit}}.
Note that dialectal evidence does not count as an attestation as it points towards a reconstruction instead. As mentioned at Talk:Hong, do not add etymologies based on your own theories and assumptions. I suggest you add etymologies based on scholarly evidence such as library books, not based on your own ideas. KevinUp (talk) 01:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Do you know how Tagalog Gran Bretanya was spelled from the 16th century to 1897? If you are not able to find proof that the word was used in the Tagalog language before 1897, then please revert to {{bor}}. KevinUp (talk) 01:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Comment on Min NanEdit

I've noticed instances where you have confused words with different tones such as:

  1. (káu, dog) and (kâu, monkey) — see Special:History/山狗
  2. (, fish) and (hīⁿ, ear) — see Talk:臭魚

This type of mistake would not have been done by native Min Nan speakers.

Since it is clear that you are not fluent enough in your native language, can you use a more reputable source, such as an external word list, rather than statements such as "my dad would usually say ..." to create Min Nan entries? KevinUp (talk) 01:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

@KevinUp: Philippine Hokkien is under-documented, so there's not much to work with in terms of reliable sources. But yeah, Mlgc1998, there seems to be many mistakes in your edits. Please be more careful in your edits. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
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