Talk:noblesse oblige

NPOV: French meaning

I believe a misunderstanding of the French has led to an incorrect English definition.

Here's what fr.wiktionary.org has to say about it (from the Dictionnaire de l’Académie française):

noblesse oblige féminin

1. Quiconque prétend être noble doit se conduire noblement.

2. (Figuré) On doit agir en conformité avec la situation qu’on occupe, avec la réputation qu’on s’est acquise.

In English:

1. Whoever claims to be noble must conduct himself nobly.

2. (Figuratively) One must act in a fashion that conformes with one's position, and with the reputation that one has earned.

— This unsigned comment was added by BAlfson (talk • contribs).

Note that words borrowed into English often take on a specific meaning, derived from the FL meaning. They are borrowed to fill some specific (perceived) need for a meaning or shade of meaning in English. The definition we have for the English term looks correct.

Some examples: safari which just means "journey" in Swahili, specifically means "trip to see wild animals in Africa" in English. Likewise madrassa, Arabic for "school", is "Islamic school" in English. And so on. Robert Ullmann 14:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suppose one could say that the meaning of "To beg the question" has changed because enough people have mis-used it in the last few years. The meaning of noblesse oblige I experienced in academia in the USA in 1970 was as I have stated. In consulting the OED, you will find that the term "suggests noble ancestry constrains to honourable behavior; privilege entails to responsibility." Being a noble meant that you had responsibilities to lead, manage, etc. You were not to simply spend your time in idle pursuits.

There are indeed many examples of meaning changes when words move between languages, the mere existence of such a generality has no logical implication for the correctness of a specific usage.

Noblesse oblige thus means that a person is responsible for fulfilling the duties of the position one occupies. It is not unreasonable to extend this to generosity, but "benevolence" is hardly required by noblesse oblige. BAlfson 14:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on Johnuniq's suggestions on the talk page of the corresponding Wikipedia article, I have changed both to reflect the meaning in the original French and the difference between British and American English. BAlfson 19:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

not a noun

This is a phrase consisting of noun (noblesse) and verb (oblige). It is not an 'uncountable noun' as the article states, nor is it an adjective and noun. The noun is 'nobility', not 'obligation'.88.167.22.75 07:29, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

As French, you're correct. As it's used in English, that's a different matter. The people who use it in English don't know the parts, they just use it as a whole. At least they're not asking for sandwiches with the au jus on the side... Chuck Entz (talk) 08:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)