Calthinus

Templates in etymology sections

Hi, and welcome back! Please don't forget that we make heavy use of templates around here: diff. Thanks! Per utramque cavernam 15:34, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Salve User:Per utramque cavernam, thanks for saying hi. To be honest I actually am still struggling to figure out some of these things on Wiktionary. I actually had a question for you -- what is the convention for references? I am correcting a lot of entries (jaloux being one of them), using Rey's Dictionnaire historique de la langue française" and Pope's From Latin to Modern French. How should I be citing these? --Calthinus (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, how do I ping here? --Calthinus (talk) 15:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

1) About the ping, there are two options:

• the one you've just used (i.e. a plain link to the user page: [[User:Calthinus]])
• the templates {{ping}} or {{reply}}: {{ping|Calthinus}}, {{reply|Calthinus}}.

In either case, for it to work, you must not forget to sign your messages with the four tildes. But it seems you've already got that down.

2) About the refs: first, we should create a reference template, similar to {{R:FEW}} for example (we could name it {{R:DHLF}} or {{R:fr:DHLF}}). Then we'll have two choices: either create a =Further reading= section and put the template there (as at lutter, see diff), or a =References= section with an appel de note (as at loyal, see diff). Per utramque cavernam 16:06, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks!--Calthinus (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

No worries. I can try and help with the creation, but others are more conversant with that type of templates and the exact info they need (User:Sgconlaw, User:Vahagn Petrosyan?). And {{R:FEW}} is insufficient by the way; since there are several editions, I think we should have several templates to make it clear which one we're using. Per utramque cavernam 16:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, is this a mistake? The etymon of étain is stannum (“tin”) (alt. stagnum), not stagnum (“pond, swamp”). Per utramque cavernam 16:06, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam it's not a mistake. Stagnum was a variant of stannum, also carrying the meaning of "tin". This is the variant that was ancestral to the French etain. The emergence of this variant is thought by Rey to be due to Gaulish contamination. If it had been stannum, the a would have been in a closed syllable, and we would have ended up with *etan, not *etain in modern French. Don't take it from me. It currently says that on the page stagnum right now. Also, Rey (forgive me for omitting accents): "etain est issue du Latin stagnum... la forme stagnum, mieux attestee que stannum, n'apparait pas avant Pline, selon lequel l'etamage seerait une invention gauloise; il s'agirait doc d'un emprunt, mais d'origine incertaine, eventuellement gaulois." --Calthinus (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

All right. But this stagnum is, AFAICT, completely unrelated to the other stagnum (“pond”), so it looked very weird to have them share descendants. Do you agree with my splitting the entry into two etymology sections (diff)? If yes, all that's left is deciding whether we want to put the Romance descendants there, or leave them at stannum with a disclaimer ("from a collateral form stagnum" or something to that effect). What would you prefer? And actually, apart from French, which ones must come from stagnum, which ones from stannum, and which ones could come from either? Per utramque cavernam 16:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Then there's also the question of the etymology of étang: is it phonetically impossible to have it descend from stagnum? Per utramque cavernam 16:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Ok, that seems fair. Although stannum > etain is phonetically impossible, stagnum > etang actually isn't, if we account for the possibility of n/g metathesis possibly brought about by lexical pressure from the "tin" stagnum. But this is not what happened, actually because etang is not a regular development from stagnum anyways. Instead, Rey: "ETANG provient de estanc, issu de estanchier". Deverbalization, not a regular development. --Calthinus (talk) 16:42, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

All right, I won't re-add étang to the list of descendants of stagnum 1 then (rest assured someone will do it at some point though :p). Per utramque cavernam 16:46, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Re diff, this reminds of the case of raide. I'd like to gather these analogical levelings from the feminine somewhere. Per utramque cavernam 16:46, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I totally forgot about your doublets page. My bad. I have so many of them I could add haha. Yeah, I'm a busy man but I could help you with that here and there if you do start it. Pope has a whole section on them. French did it a lot, actually it's quite possible that where there was notable divergence between masc/fem (or plur) forms, the vast majority ended up being levelled by analogy.--Calthinus (talk) 16:49, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

No worries, I don't think about it that much nowadays; you're certainly welcome to add more words though, I'm still curious!

Ok, thanks. Maybe I'll have a go at those instances of leveling some time. I'll let you know. Per utramque cavernam 17:33, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam For which Pliny it was... Rey doesn't specify :/ --Calthinus (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Talk page discussion

Hi Calthinus, I recently pinged you on my talk page regarding a debate between me and another Wiktionarian on accents in Albanian entries. Just checking - did you see it? I would appreciate some help/insight, as I am admittedly not experienced with the wider Wiktionary world of proposals and etc. Thank you in advance! ArbDardh (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh

@ArbDardh unfortunately, I am not experienced with the world of proposals either. But I'll take a look. --Calthinus (talk) 15:49, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus - thank you for the reply. ArbDardh (talk) 19:22, 17 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh

The word Pyll

It appears that there are 2 theories about this word and one of them was removed from the wiktionary page.It is possible to insert a p- sound if front of the words as it is probably a contraction of the word "për".As for a scource,I want to mention the "Saggio grammatologica della lingua albanesa" by Demetrio Camarda,wich is not mentioned in a single entry here in wiktionary. 185.200.212.99 09:19, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Demetrio Camarda is certainly a useful author, however his work is literally from the 19th century and is massively, massively outdated. --Calthinus (talk) 22:25, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

mëtoj

Hi! I've seen that you are active on Albanian entries. Would you be able to find an etymology for this new entry "mëtoj" (I pretend)? FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry missed this. Looks like it's already been done? Although I'm not sure I find that one convincing. Better than nothing in any case though.--Calthinus (talk) 04:36, 13 March 2023 (UTC)