Max19582

Pronunciation

I don't think you have to add exact PHONETIC representations in IPA because it doesn't really add anything substantial to the entries. Such secondary processes as allophony in terms of vowel length in stressed syllables, the realisation of the underlying phonemes //ɛ̃// and //ɔ̃// as dependent on the surrounding phonetic environment, or the representation of /ɨ/ accurately as a little more centralised vowel - all of these don't really matter because allophony occurs in every single language in the world, and we use PHONEMIC representations most of the time because that's sufficient to understand how the phonetic systems of different languages work. Shumkichi (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for notifying me about that! I won't add any more phonetic transcriptions to the entries. Mazab IZW (talk) 15:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation 2: Electric Boogaloo

Hey, you're changes to the module were something we've discussed before, namely me, Shumkichi, and Tashi. We've opted to have the palatalization and the /j/, and also the nasals at the end don't need the n. Please discuss this with us before you make changes. Vininn126 (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, sorry if I caused you guys any trouble! I thought having them both was a bit unnecessary (they're after all phonemic transcriptions) and that changing how palatalized consonants are transcribed would make them easier to read (/pjɛs/ just seems easier and faster to read than /pʲjɛs/) and could bring more consistency (the module doesn't seem to palatalize the consonants where /j/ is represented by a <j> (for example, objawiać)). As for the nasals, I thought that using the approach of <ę> and <ą> being transcribed as /ɛŋ/ and /ɔŋ/ would make more sense, as they aren't really usual nasal vowels that [ɛ̃] and [ɔ̃] are. I will be sure to discuss any future changes with the contributors first. Mazab IZW (talk) 17:45, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation 3

Hey! I saw your module changes. In theory that's how it SHOULD work, but in reality these words are closer to jo than io. So compare adiunkt (also check out it's pronunciation section on WSJP). it's respellint adjunkt - becuase the ju constitutes it's own syllable, as opposed to softening the previous sound. So for words like these we should respell them in the template. Your idea should work but unfortunately doesn't :/ Vininn126 (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I see the issue. I've also noticed that in case of words like radio, respelling them with "j" in the template divides them into syllables incorrectly (it gives rad-io instead of ra-dio). Perhaps we can keep the module generating transcriptions for words with tiV and diV by softening them, and just in case of words like adiunkt, specify the pronunciation in the template, so the syllable breaks are correct? Mazab IZW (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so we might be able to go back to your other edit, as ra-dio is definitely correct, we just have to allow for things like adiunkt. Also, I don't recall if you added /dʲ/ or /tʲ/ to local consonants? Vininn126 (talk) 16:35, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I remember adding them to "valid_phone", "devoice" and "voice" locals, as well as the "is_palatalized_cluster" function. Mazab IZW (talk) 16:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so sorry about that. I just prefer talking about it before changing it. If you do that, maybe add a talk section on the module saying the changes with your explanations why. But thank you for your input and help :) Vininn126 (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Alright! I didn't discuss this one specifically, as I considered it to just be a small fix, but I'll remember about that in the future :) Mazab IZW (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Cleanup

Hey! I noticed you were helping a bit with cleanup. I've also been trying to do that (I've managed to get most categories down to 0...) If you would like to help further, there are a few other things that need done: 1, 2, and 3. The third one is pages without any pronunciation whatsoever. Thanks Vininn126 (talk) 16:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for letting me know! I'll check them out and add what I can Max19582 (talk) 01:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Maintenance

What are these maintenance categories you made? Vininn126 (talk) 14:24, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I ask because Category:pl-pronunciation syllable count mismatch is now populated with a bunch of words where there isn't a mismatch Vininn126 (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I added Category:pl-pronunciation_possible_Latin_borrowings_without_the_fs_parameter which is (supposed to be) a category containing all of the -ika/-yka words without the fs parameter, specifying if the word is supposed to have both the stresses generated. Although after adding it, both Category:pl-pronunciation_syllable_count_mismatch (which I used in one, already reverted edit in order to test something) and Category:pl-pronunciation_possible_Latin_borrowings_without_the_fs_parameter got flooded with seemingly random words and I'm unsure how I can fix that :/ Max19582 (talk) 14:30, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Most of those latin words don't need it - we shouldn't be checking if it's from Latin. They might be from Greek or suffixed with -yka/-ika in their own right, like kolorystyka. Vininn126 (talk) 14:32, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

The category is collecting all the words that end with -ika and -yka regardless of their origin, so the stress can be later specified manually using one, simple parameter. As for the name, I just went with what Polish Wikipedia says ("wyrazy obce zakończone na -ika || -yka, zapożyczone z łaciny lub za jej pośrednictwem, np. matematyka, muzyka (jeżeli jednak forma deklinacyjna jest dłuższa bądź krótsza od mianownika, wtedy akcentuje się na przedostatniej sylabie, np. galaktyka, ale galaktykami, galaktyk)"), but we can always rename it. Max19582 (talk) 14:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

So it should also have kolorystyka and the like? Would it be possible to have it check for ONLY that suffix from the ipa? Vininn126 (talk) 14:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

The category should have all the words that end with -ika, -yka and their forms (like -iki, -yki, etc.). That includes words like kolorystyka, but also words like tyka or pika, which are obviously incorrect. For the ones where the stress is supposed to be antepenultimate, I've been planning to add the fs parameter set to 1, and for the ones where it's not, the same parameter set to 0. Max19582 (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to just have it check if a word ends with /ika/ or /ɨka/? And I'm not sure how worth it is to have this, because now we have to go through all these, where as before all the entries with this suffix have mostly been resolved. Vininn126 (talk) 14:45, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

It does check if a word ends with /ika/ or /ɨka/, I just added the extra parameter so words like magika (the genitive singular of magik) don't suddenly become magika. I updated the module mostly so we don't have to add stuff like {{pl-p|ma.te'ma.ty.ka|matematyka|q2=colloquial}} every time we edit an entry like this and instead we can just use {{pl-p|fs=1}}. As for the category, if you want we can always delete it. Max19582 (talk) 14:51, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not sure we need it. We definitely need to fix whatever's broken with the other category. Vininn126 (talk) 14:53, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I reverted the module to the state it was in before I made any changes to categories. I guess that now we should just give it some time to update. Max19582 (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

That kinda sucks. There's a solution here and you're close, we'll think of something. Vininn126 (talk) 15:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

As for the categories - the Category:pl-pronunciation_possible_Latin_borrowings_without_the_fs_parameter one just got new 50-ish entries. I guess they just need some time to update. Max19582 (talk) 14:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Other updates

Sorry for all the pings - would you read the most recent discussion my userpage and give your input? Vininn126 (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

shōnen‎‎

Can you cite this outside wikipedia? Vininn126 (talk) 19:55, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems to be pretty common. I'll take care of it in a second. Max19582 (talk) 19:56, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate it. It's just when I go outside a major dictionary (or even sometimes when I doubt what they're saying) I like to cite it. It's also always just a good thing to do, even if it is a huge pain in the ass (check out the Quiet Quentin gadget in your preferences, btw). If we do web quotes in the future, we'll have to keep in mind CFI. Vininn126 (talk) 22:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Module Stuff Yaaaay!

You seem to have a head for the module. Think you could add -istka, -cja, -zja, -sja, and their forms so that they properly, automatically syllabify? Vininn126 (talk) 21:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Vininn126 Hey, I've recently been extremely busy and I don't think I will be able to help this time. So sorry for that! Max19582 (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Alright. I'll see if I can get it done otherwise. If not, I still might ask you later, if you're around. Cheers, good luck with life stuff! Vininn126 (talk) 09:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)