Wiktionary talk:Votes/2017-06/borrowing, borrowed

learned borrowing

Please consider the cases of {{learned borrowing}} (which I would personally like to see deleted) as well. --Barytonesis (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

About adding {{learned borrowing}} to the vote: maybe should do it, maybe we shouldn't. If you want to delete the template, then maybe it's better to discuss template deletion separately. It would be a waste of effort and time to change the syntax of {{lbor}} in all entries now just to delete it later. Maybe it's better to use this vote just for {{bor}}, and then if any proposal here passes, we may discuss about doing the same for {{lbor}} or deleting it. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough, let's wait. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:23, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

{{lbor}} merely links to {{bor|notext=1}} --Victar (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the status quo is this: {{lbor}} redirects to {{learned borrowing}}, which calls the module function {{#invoke:etymology/templates|borrowed|learned=1}}. Ultimately, both {{bor}} and {{lbor}} use the same function ("export.format_borrowed" at Module:etymology), but the "learned" argument changes the template output to "Learned borrowing..." and adds a category like Category:Old French learnedly borrowed terms. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:58, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that they're the same module function. --Victar (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Sure, but does that change something? Unless you think maybe we should use this vote to edit all entries that use {{lbor}} in some way. Currently, there are 314 main namespace entries using {{lbor}}. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:55, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, as we're proposing edits to this module, it only makes sense that all child templates be affected in the same way. {{lbor}} would either drop its prefix or be changed to learnedly borrowed (which is in keeping with the category wording). --Victar (talk) 14:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

link

A minor consideration: currently, the template provides an automated linking to Appendix:Glossary#loanword, which might be useful to some users (although I'm only moderately satisfied by the current glossary - why is there no systematic linking to Wikipedia articles, for a start?). Removing the text means we have to do this linking ourselves. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:23, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

@Barytonesis: please see the proposal 2 I wrote. --Victar (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Ungrammatical?

I know this is not the point, but what is ungrammatical about "[b]orrowing from"? The string "a borrowing from" gets many hits; here are a few:

1. • 2008, Frantisek Lichtenberk, A Grammar of Toqabaqita, Walter de Gruyter →ISBN, page 1291

     Not infrequently, speakers of Toqabaqita disagree among themselves whether a given word is a borrowing from a neighbouring or a nearby lect or not.

   • 2012, Pedro J. Chamizo-Domínguez, Semantics and Pragmatics of False Friends, Routledge →ISBN, page 61

     So, the English language adopted the collocation love handles as a calque by translating it directly from French poignées d'amour; while Spanish also adopted as a borrowing from French the term michelines to mean the same object.

   • 1995, Jon Amastae, Contemporary Research in Romance Linguistics: Papers from the 22nd Linguistic Symposium on Romance Languages, El Paso/Cd. Juárez, February 1992, John Benjamins Publishing →ISBN, page 167

     Section 3 discusses general characteristics of phonological borrowing, pointing out crucial problems with the traditional treatment of Rumanian ft/ as a borrowing from Common Slavic.

   • 2010, J Gordon Melton, The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead, Visible Ink Press →ISBN, page 90

     Its modern form appears variously as vipir, vepir, or vapir), or even more commonly as vampir, a borrowing from Russian.

__Gamren (talk) 11:24, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

In all these examples, they say "A borrowing from..." The template text would be OK more often if the template said either "A borrowing from" or "Borrowed from", but it currently says only "Borrowing from". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there is any grammatical problem with "borrowing from..." (which is the same as "a borrowing from..." but with an omitted article). I just think it's better to say "borrowed from..." than "(a) borrowing from...". --WikiTiki89 15:37, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

It is extremely difficult to generate phrases automatically that will sound good in any possible surrounding sentence. I don't think we should be focusing too much on trying to do that. Equinox ◑ 11:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Complete removal of lead text

I think some people are confused into thinking that this vote is for removing the lead text altogether, ex. From {{bor|en|it|pizza}}. --Victar (talk) 17:44, 11 July 2017 (UTC)