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Entries needing correction edit

Will you be continuing to correct the Median, Old Persian, Saka and Scythian entries that I had created now that you are back? Antiquistik (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Regarding the etymology of ἀκινάκης (akinákēs), do you think there is any viable Old Iranic period reconstruction? Something like *akayinakaʰ or *akayīnakaʰ? Antiquistik (talk) 01:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Would you like me to email you the studies on the Scyhian language I mentioned in the beer parlour that I could not link there? Because, given that we both tend to edit entries in Old Iranian languages on Wiktionary, I feel like the best way to avoid more going in circles would be to share with you the linguistic research due to which I had been disagreeing with you on how to deal with the Scythian languages. This way we can resolve our misunderstandings before having to run in circles again. Antiquistik (talk) 09:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ossetian edit

Hi. Can I ask you to give approximate reconstructions for Old Ossetic and Proto-Scythian forms of Ossetian саг (sag), please? Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 20:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Don't remove RFV templates edit

It doesn't matter if you think it's been attested: we still need to go through the process of having a discussion. If you look at what I wrote on both entries, the issue is whether the terms are attested in Proto-Brythonic or Latin. Theknightwho (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

The entry already passed a previous RFV with the same argument, but sure @Theknightwho. --{{victar|talk}} 19:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
No it didn't - you merely removed the RFV template on the same incorrect grounds. Theknightwho (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Artognou passed both an RFV and RFC, neither of which were resolved by me. See Talk:Artognou. --{{victar|talk}} 20:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neither of those discussions show any kind of consensus; they just petered out. Feel free to address the reason behind the nomination, by the way. Theknightwho (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

*Hwi-(H)was-want edit

@Victar Recently you requested my entry Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/Hwi-(H)was-want for deletion. You wrote the explanation that it is a "Zoroastrian borrowing", then quickly deleted it. What do you mean by that? Can you also define a source for your statement? *Diwodh₃rós (talk) 11:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I deleted my RFV and instead cleaned it up. My comment regarding religious terminology borrowings was chiefly referring to this. The nominalisation of PII *HwiHwáswāns just means "the shining one", which can be extended to a deity, the sun, dawn, etc. --{{victar|talk}} 00:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ok, thank you for explanation. *Diwodh₃rós 05:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ossetian edit

Hi. Can I ask you once again to make a reconstruction for the Ossetian гӕн (gæn), please? ɶLerman (talk) 20:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

LMFAO. Someome gets lifted every day. Sure. --{{victar|talk}} 05:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
@ɶLerman: Reconstruction:Old Ossetic/gænæ. --{{victar|talk}} 08:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks very much <3 ɶLerman (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Where and why and whom does someone lifted? :o ɶLerman (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Your question re: IPs edit

The geolocation is wrong and neither are proxies. Besides which, most of the second IP's edits don't even mention Persian even when they could have shoehorned in Irman-style bad Persian etymologies. Right or wrong, I don't think they're Irman. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Chuck Entz: Thanks for checking. --{{victar|talk}} 20:42, 25 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

unþasaggjungu edit

*unþasaggjan is not a class II weak verb, so the suffix on *unþasaggjungu should be *-ingu. Looking at the Descendants, it's OHG that shifted the original -ingu to -ungu (> Old High German intsagunga). Leasnam (talk) 18:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Leasnam: no objection from me. --{{victar|talk}} 03:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. Page has been moved to *unþasaggingu. Leasnam (talk) 03:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

*froggo edit

Why is it *prewgʰ- but not *prowgʰ-ō ~ *prugʰ-nos? Leasnam (talk) 04:15, 5 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Leasnam: Because I was reconstructing that step in pre-PG per Kroonen, not a PIE. --{{victar|talk}} 04:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

*īsajikilljā edit

Your revert here [[1]] is wrong. The OE & GML are masculine; the Middle Dutch is masculine or neuter. None are feminine. Leasnam (talk) 05:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm going to bed. I'll get up with you again tomorrow :) Leasnam (talk) 05:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Cool, but you deleted the content without moving it, as expressed in my edit comment, "create the entry first, then move". -- Sokkjō 05:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Gotcha. It's been created, so I'll remove it again. Leasnam (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

{{d}} edit

Please fix incoming links before nominating entries for speedy deletion. Creating more work for the deleter keeps the category from being emptied. I appreciate that you left rationales at e.g. Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/Hay- and Reconstruction:Proto-Nuristani/eká, but they're not really actionable; it's not like replacing links to a simple typo. Ultimateria (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ultimateria: My mistake for not checking those. Done. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 03:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, but I was also referring to Category:Terms derived from the Proto-Indo-Iranian root *Hay- and its subpages. Also, I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at the links to the remaining reconstruction entries in CAT:D. Ultimateria (talk) 05:26, 4 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Ultimateria: I see the confusion. It's because we use roots for the categories without creating the entries in PII and PIIr. --{{victar|talk}} 06:19, 4 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Pashto edit

What is your basis for reverting my Pashto edits? They were all wrongly reverted. Both شیر and روشن are obvious Persian loanwords in Pashto (identical to their Persian form), with روڼ being the inherited form in Pashto. So I removed them as they were listed as inherited forms. It is fine to list those words, but they should be specified as being Persian loanwords in Pashto rather than as inherited forms. And the transliteration of ښ in Pashto is <ṣ>, but <ṣ̌> and <x̌> are also seen as acceptable. It represents the /ʂ/ sound. Gharandune (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Gharandune, if they're borrowings from Persian, you need to mark them as such, not simply delete them. We mark borrowings using {{desc}} template with the |bor=1 parameter. As for transliterations, please use our guide at WT:PS TR. --{{victar|talk}} 17:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Missing entries from IAIL edit

Do you know of any version of the Indo-Aryan Inherited Lexicon where the entry for "ks·ay [1]" is not missing? The only one I have at my disposition does not have this entry, and instead has "ks·ay [2]" immediately following "ks·av." Antiquistik (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Antiquistik: No, I do not. That book is a work-in-progress and has many holes and oversights. --{{victar|talk}} 18:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
I have emailed the author of the Indo-Aryan Inherited Lexicon. He replied that he has incorporated it into his upcoming database which will become available next year, the Indo-Iranian Etymological Dictionary. Antiquistik (talk) 13:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Template:R:non:Köbler edit

If you insist on removing the umlaut, the correct form is Koebler, not Kobler. There are several of Köbler's dictionaries implemented as templates here, all of which use Köbler. Helrasincke (talk) 09:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

It would also be a courtesy to update the documentation to reflect the changes. Helrasincke (talk) 09:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Helrasincke: Stripping combing characters is the standard method for sanitizing template names. Unless you're familiar with each language's orthography, you're not going to know that German /ö/ = /oe/ or Lithuanian /ę/ = /en/. -- Sokkjō 20:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ok, I take your point that it may not be self-evident, but really the same argument could be made for templates based on transliterations from other scripts (especially those scripts where the translit systems themselves are somewhat arbitrary or have competing norms, say for cyrillic). I'm all for accessibility, but I don't find the logic here compelling, especially since we have on-screen input buttons for non-English characters. I would have preferred it were at least left as a redirect like all the others, since if you don't know what an umlaut is or how to input or even respell one you probably also have little business or interest in providing citations for Germanic sources. And can I ask how exactly deleting the documentation page instead of moving it to the new location helps this presumed aim to improve accessibility? Helrasincke (talk) 17:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Nobody's going to go to CAT:Old Norse reference templates and wonder, "where is Template:R:non:Koebler, I only see Template:R:non:Kobler?" There's no point to a redirect.
I did not delete Template:R:non:Kobler/documentation, that was User:Equinox. Equinox, thanks for deleting the redirects for me, but could you restore the aforementioned page? -- Sokkjō 20:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ok, my bad. I couldn't see whether someone requested the delete and just assumed it was connected. Helrasincke (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

*Hárwāns vs *Harwánts? edit

Given the morphologies of Avestan 𐬀𐬎𐬭𐬎𐬎𐬀𐬧𐬙 (auruuaṇt), Sanskrit अर्वत् (arvat), Old Persian *Arvantapātaʰ and Old Persian-derived Ancient Greek Ἀρυάνδης (Aruándēs), and Middle Persian [script needed] (⁠arwand⁠ /⁠'lwnd⁠/), could Proto-Indo-Iranian *Harwánts and similar descendant forms for Proto-Indo-Aryan and Proto-Iranian be preferable reconstructions than Proto-Indo-Iranian *Hárwāns, Proto-Indo-Aryan *Hárwāns, and Proto-Iranian *Hárwāns? Antiquistik (talk) 13:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

No. See Reconstruction talk:Proto-Indo-Iranian/támHaswāns. --{{victar|talk}} 16:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
How would you reconstruct the Old Persian form of Ancient Greek Ἀρυάνδης (Aruándēs) in this case? Antiquistik (talk) 08:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Done. Again, if there are multiple theories, they should all be listed. --{{victar|talk}} 22:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/korōnā for Old Saxon edit

Hello. I noticed for this reconstruction: Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/korōnā, the Old Saxon form is listed as "kappa", I assume this is a typo? Thanks so much. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 18:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Fixed. --{{victar|talk}} 03:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

*maȷ́ʰištʰas edit

Is there any reason why some Old Persian terms end with while the other reconstruction entries you have edited recently now end with -h instead of ? Additionally, the Old Median term *masištah⁠ is attested, per Tavernier, so is there any reason why you have removed it? Antiquistik (talk) 13:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ngl, it's a bit frustrating you don't read edit comments, especially when you're pinged in them. See diff. As for the Median, don't create reconstructions without descendants. --{{victar|talk}} 16:08, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, I had read the ping, but I had initially misunderstood it. For the Median, does this mean there should be Middle Median and later descendants for there to be reconstructions? Antiquistik (talk) 18:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Essentially, <ʰ> and <ⁿ> are only used in transcription of attested OP terms to denote that they are in the word, but are not being expressed in the cuneiform. There should never be any reconstructions, either as an entry or in a descendants list, without noting attested descendants, derivatives, or borrowings. --{{victar|talk}} 23:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

póyh₂-w-eh₂ edit

Hi Victar, how do you mean this is a post-PIE resolving r/n-stem? That isn't at all straighforward to me. For one thing it's not post-PIE. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 10:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

If you have a look at other r/n-stems, in late-PIE and its descendants they were nearly all rebuilt to new stems, so *póyh₂w-eh₂ is practically expected. Not the case with u-stems, even neuter u-stems, which if rebuilt, just become masculine u-stems. --{{victar|talk}} 11:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Can you be more specific? What happened to the r/n? Is there a model for this kind of process? Maybe you're right, but at the moment it seems quite random. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 18:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Because r/n-stems fell out of productivity and usually when that happens, they get rebuilt. Not random at all. --{{victar|talk}} 04:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
If you look at *watōr ~ *watiniz it either gets reanalised as *watōr based on the strong stem or *watna- based on the weak stem. Or if they really couldn't deal with r/n-stems they could plausibly give it up entirely and rederive a different word from a different base. But I've never heard of what you're suggesting. So can you please explain what you mean and give some other examples? —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 12:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Even in your example, it was indeed rebuilt from the collective as an r-stem within PIE and became a consonant stem in Germanic. See RC:Proto-Indo-European/sóh₂wl̥ an example of PIE descendants dealing with r/n-stems. --{{victar|talk}} 13:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Do you not understand what I mean? When words are rebuilt the new stem is based on an existing form. All descendants of *sóh₂wl̥ have either an l or an n, or whatever these sounds change into through regular sound change. Sometimes words change under the influence of other vocabulary items, but in that case you need to name those and explain how the analogy worked. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 13:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Maybe it's a terminology issue that is confusing. Let me try this way. If a stem class no longer exists, it needs to be rebuilt into a different class. Proto-Germanic, for example, does not possess an r/n-stem class, so the language demands that it be rebuilt as a class it does. This process of rebuilding r/n-stems as a different stem class was already occurring during late nuclear PIE. Not so for u-stems, which still survives as a productive class to this day. --{{victar|talk}} 14:26, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I get that stem classes evolve. The question is: how? What is the process? You say we start with *péyh₂wr̥ ~ *pih₂wéns. How do we get to *póyh₂weh₂? Historical linguists spend a lot of time and effort arguing how one form could get reanalysed as something else. For some reason you seem to be skipping this. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 15:03, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
How depends on the word and the class, but with r/n-stems, they often become n-stems, due to their similarity in declension. How or why doesn't really matter in this case. The only question is "which form is more likely to be rebuilt, an r/n-stem, or a u-stem", and the answer is r/n-stem, full stop. --{{victar|talk}} 23:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
It really does matter. Please give me some examples where something similar happened, because this flies in the face of what I know about language. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
What does? Have you not looked through the r~l/n-stem entries on the project? Plenty of examples of how they were rebuilt. --{{victar|talk}} 00:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
It matters how and why. Yes I have looked through the r/n l/n stems on the project. Please name some examples of Greek words which were rebuilt in a similar way. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
You mean like *péyh₂-wr̥ ~ *pih₂-wén-s > *péyh₂w-ō ~ pih₂u-né-s > Ancient Greek πίων (píōn)? Honestly, at this point, it feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. --{{victar|talk}} 01:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from, but you're giving me nothing. A similar change to *péyh₂-wr̥ ~ *pih₂-wén-s > *póyh₂w-eh₂. Please. A few examples that lead you to say "practically expected". —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 01:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sure: *péth₂-r̥ ~ *pth₂-én-s > *péth₂r-eh₂ > Proto-Germanic *feþrō? --{{victar|talk}} 01:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
The whole point of my moving *póyh₂w-eh₂ was that it doesn't contain r or n. You insisted it belonged to *péyh₂-wr̥ ~ *pih₂-wén-s despite that. I keep asking you to explain and provide examples. You finally give me an example which retains the r/n. Making it not similar. At all. And you accuse me of arguing for the sake of it? Please just answer the question or admit you don't know. I'd like to be able to work with you because you make tons of great edits, but sometimes you're so strangely obstinate. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 02:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
LMAO. This has been fun. Merry Christmas! --{{victar|talk}} 02:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Caoimhin ceallach Before you start wheel-warring, please read the sources I added. Regardless of anything I wrote above, sources derive Sanskrit पीवस् (pī́vas, fat) from PIE *péyh₂wr̥. The stress on the term clearly points to a secondary formation, either from a PIE mobile noun, or a intra-PII derivation, i.e. this cant not be derived directly from the root. --{{victar|talk}} 22:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

About Nuristani edit

It's unfortunate we don't have anything detailing comparative Nuristani, besides Morgenstierne's inaccessible NTS notes (at least online) and DN Nelson's "The Historical Development of the Nuristani Languages", which is also inaccessible since ProQuest only offers a preview and appears to be preliminary. Jakob Halfmann has been researching for a few years now, and has published an article tentatively linking a Nuristani word to Bactrian, alongside some sound rules. I wonder if you could refer to him as a reliable source for future Nuristani research, alongside the possibility of contacting him and also Irén Hegedűs. Thank you. Kwékwlos (talk) 02:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Kwékwlos, the problem with Proto-Nuristani reconstructions is two-fold: 1) As you mentioned, we don't have great sources, chiefly because there hasn't much research on the family. Nelson's paper is really old -- typed on a typewriter -- but is covered in modern papers. 2) If we're going to reconstruct Proto-Nuristani, it should be done from the point that all the extant Nuristani languages diverged, not simply slightly modified PII.
What needs to be done is someone needs to create a table, like I did for User:Victar/Reflexes/Proto-Indo-Iranian, illustrating all the steps from Proto-Nuristani to modern Nuristani languages. Only with that can we formulate a common ancestral form. Until then, these reconstructions should be deleted as they're apocryphal. --{{victar|talk}} 07:14, 27 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I assume the current "limbo" state is due to the fact that not many researchers are willing to brave Afghanistan's political climate to collect data from the Nuristani languages and therefore set up a preliminary reconstruction of Proto-Nuristani (aside from Nelson's), and also due to late attestation (within the past few centuries only). Fortunately, Jakob Halfmann has already submitted a grammar on Katë (Kamkata-vari), which hasn't been published yet. There's also a Dari-language grammar on the Zhonchigal dialect of Nuristani Kalasha (Waigali) by Samiullah Taza, if we exclude Degener's German article on the Nisheygram dialect and Gryunberg's Russian article on the Kata-vari dialect.
PS: Jakob Halfmann has his own Twitter (@bitmalang), so you may want to reach out to him there, including possibly obtaining access to Morgenstierne's numerous notes on Nuristani languages. Kwékwlos (talk) 21:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
There should be an upcoming project called "An Etymological Dictionary of the Nuristani Nominal Lexicon". When it is published, we can then cite it for our Proto-Nuristani reconstructions should they appear. Kwékwlos (talk) 22:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

*rammēn edit

Hi Sokkjo ! You have postulated the ancestor of Old English remian and Old Frisian ramia, remia as Proto-West Germanic *rammēn, and I can reason why; however, wouldn't *rammēn be intrasitive and mean "to become strong" rather than "to make strong" ? Should it maybe be *rammōn instead and the alternation between a and e just be due to dialectal variance or alteration of æ ? Leasnam (talk) 06:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Leasnam: Whatever you think is best, I support. It's a bit of a trainwreck entry that I did my best to cleanup and port from RC:Proto-Germanic/rammaz. -- Sokkjō 06:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I understand. Okay, thank you. I will go to bed now and take a fresh look at it tomorrow :) Leasnam (talk) 06:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I just realised the OFS ramia, remia means "to build, construct" and isn't related to Old English remian. The OFS term is derived from Proto-West Germanic *ramu (frame). This also puts OE remian from Proto-West Germanic *ramm (strong) on shaky ground, since there is no clear-cut way to derive it from *rammēn, losing an m and also changing the transitivity. Leasnam (talk) 06:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay, good night for now :) Leasnam (talk) 06:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Meanwhile, Proto-Germanic *rammaz is showing up in a maintenance category I monitor because {{desctree}} can't find a Descendants section at Proto-West Germanic *ramm under the relevant ID due to it's being disguised as a Derived terms section. Unless you can figure out some way to fix that, all the descendants you removed when you cleaned up the entry are just gone. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I caught that as you were writing this, but thanks. -- Sokkjō 08:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Low German edit

You removed my changes of "Bread" in Low German. Why, these two forms are correct. Westfäölsk Meyewiärker (talk) 21:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's not about the forms, but the edit: you told the template to link to "German Low German Broot, Bread, Braud ", instead of "German Low German Broot ", "German Low German Bread " and "German Low German Braud ". To properly fix the edit would require verifying that all three actually exist, and we only have an entry for the one that was already there. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

hrama, rama f edit

My issue is not the gender, but how it's being shown by the desctree template. Because it is showing alternative forms, it's placing the "f" between hrama and rama. It should come after rama. This is glitch that should be addressed. Leasnam (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Proto-Dravidian labels at MOD:labels/data/lang/dra-pro edit

User:AleksiB_1945 User:Illustrious Lock

diff where was this agreed upon?

It was based on your suggestion at User_talk:AleksiB_1945#Proto-Dravidian_entries
If the differences are minor, perhaps labels would be better, like used in Germanic, ex. Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/lagu.

Thanks for the improvements. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks @Kutchkutch, I'm all for using labels, just not a supporter, per the literature, of a genetic South Dravidian above supposed SDI and SDII. Correct, in keeping of other languages which use dialectal labels in this way, I dropped the proto prefix. Thanks for moving forward with this. --{{victar|talk}} 06:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Might get rid of proto langs like iir-pro, gem-pro and reconstruct all branch specific words like *matsyas and *kutas to PIE and label them similarly too? *cinki a words attested in just 4 languages of the same inner branch gets reconstructed to PD even if it isnt attested to that time? also stop comparing branches like SD to recent inner branches like west Germanic, literary languages like Tamil itself is attested to ~3 cen bce, the same time as proto Germanic; PSD is comparable to proto Balto-Slavic.
Also you cant add the etymology in language pages if the branches only get labels AleksiB 1945 (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Victar: When you first reverted the changes, I thought that you would oppose this. However, it is good to see that you are willing to use labels.
@AleksiB 1945: You are understandably still upset about not having separate language codes for Proto-South Dravidian, PSD I, PSD II, etc. However, this at least is some progress without having a larger discussion or vote. Now there are categories that can be created such as:
Category:South Dravidian
Category:South-Central Dravidian
Category:North Dravidian
Kutchkutch (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
It was agreed by everyone to make SD Tamil-Tulu, SCD Telugu-Kui and name Tamil-Telugu something like macro-south.
How do you enter the etymology in a page like திங்கள் (tiṅkaḷ) without those codes? and why is just Dravidian branches not having the codes while west Germanic which existed like 1200 years ago (around the same time Malayalam split) have the lang code? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@AleksiB 1945: I recommend that you start an official new request in the Beer parlour with the name of the language and sources that support it. For an example, see Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2019/September#Requesting_language_code_for_Middle_Japanese. --{{victar|talk}} 14:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Already done that like 3 times like this one few weeks ago and ends up having no response AleksiB 1945 (talk) 16:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@AleksiB 1945: The discussion you started and linked above is unparsed and structureless. Please see the example I gave. --{{victar|talk}} 17:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Segmentation hyphens in *ɸiɸoike derived terms sections edit

Why did you delete affix segmentation hyphens on that page twice when they are standard in PIE entries (and hence I followed that model)? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

PIE entries have a different, more academic, formatting than other languages. The standard for formatting entries is to not use hyphens in descendants lists, cf. Latin, Proto-Germanic, etc. While you're here, never use {{m}} or raw text for entry list items, and only use |pos= for parts of speech. -- Sokkjō 16:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
IMO Proto-Celtic should allow PIE-style hyphens. It is standard to cite prefixed derivatives with hyphens like that in Celtic studies and increases reconstruction transparency and readability. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Disagree, but feel free to post about it in the beer parlour or somewhere. -- Sokkjō 17:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Victar Mass-removing these after a discussion has been posted about this is unacceptable, and it's far from the first time you've done this kind of thing. I've given you a block for 3 days, as this is is yet another example of you failing to collaborate in a reasonable manner. Theknightwho (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Block by Theknightwho edit

 
This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed:

Victar (block logactive blockscontribsdeleted contribsabuse filter loguser creation logchange block settingsunblock)


Request reason:

Absolutely absurd block. For cleaning up the recent entries User:Mellohi! created? Most has nothing to do with #Segmentation_hyphens_in_*ɸiɸoike_derived_terms_sections, and for the few that did, not hyphenating Celtic derived terms lists is the status quo. Who gets blocked for following standard formatting conventions? Clear abuse of power by User:Theknightwho in a very long line of abuses.

@Fay_Freak, Mahagaja, Chuck Entz, Surjection, -sche, Thadh

--{{victar|talk}} 23:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
The issue is not about what you think are the standard formatting conventions. The issue is edits like this (and others) while you know there is an ongoing discussion, as part of a much larger pattern of the same behaviour which you have engaged in for years. It is extremely tiresome, and given that you have consistently ignored (or responded rudely to) requests by others to not do this kind of thing, there is little else that can be done but give you a time-out. Or need I bring up the whole plus-template debacle? Theknightwho (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
The issue is absolutely formatting standard. I told them above that if they want to change the status quo on how we format derived terms list, they're more than welcome to, but the onerous is on them to do so. Until then, standard formatting applies.
And now we're at the root of it. This is, in truth, a block of personal vendetta made in poor faith over discussions like Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2023/November#New_language_codes, where I've called you out for your wildly unchecked behavior. How you haven't been removed as an admin is just beyond me. --{{victar|talk}} 00:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't see how your past form for doing this with the plus-templates could be relevant to any kind of personal vendetta by me, since I wasn't editing then; nor your endless etymology-section edit wars with Djkcel, your consistent rude behaviour towards Vininn126, or any of the many other personal feuds you seem to keep getting into. What I do know, though, is that it all points towards a much larger pattern. Trying to make this about me is simply yet another excuse to avoid the issue that your behaviour is the problem here. Enough. Theknightwho (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've unblocked Victar (but not Sokkjo, since I'm unclear on the reason for the second account). The changes in hyphenation on Proto-Celtic pages are unproblematic, though they were also unproblematic before: we don't use hyphens in Reconstruction entry names, but {{l|cel-pro||*ati-noweti}} doesn't create a link, so it's OK. {{l|cel-pro|*atinoweti}} is also OK; {{l|cel-pro|*atinoweti|*ati-noweti}} would be an acceptable compromise. I had no idea TKW was an admin; that's pretty appalling given his relentless "my way or the highway" style of interacting with other editors. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree, and have unblocked the account Sokkjo following your unblock of Victar: the two accounts were blocked over the same issue. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mnemosientje: Thanks. For the record, since it seems to bother some people, I use my User:Victar account for PIE and Indo-Iranian edits, and my User:Sokkjo account for Germanic and Celtic, to better keep track of my edits and watchlists. --{{victar|talk}} 16:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
TKW had viewed a mass hyphen deletion as retaliatory for me asking about it on his talk page and in Beer Parlor, hence the block. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 13:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mellohi!: Of the 14 of yours edits I cleaned up yesterday, only 3[diff][diff][diff] has any affect on hyphenation. Hardly a "mass hyphen deletion" and why would I take "retaliatory" action for something I recommend you do. For the record, I didn't even see your Beer Parlour post because, for some reason, you didn't tag me. --{{victar|talk}} 16:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mahagaja I have absolutely no opinion on the issue of hyphenation here. My concern is over Victar bullying another user (yet again). Theknightwho (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Theknightwho: What do "plus-templates" have anything to do with this? Really what happened was User:Mellohi! complained on the en.Wikt discord, editors User:Djkcel and User:Vininn126 made inflammatory comments like "Victar is an ass", and you, in complete bad faith, blocked me. Your ignorance to the matter is made plain by the fact that you reverted all my edits, not just the 3 mentioned above. --{{victar|talk}} 18:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Victar I’ve explained right there how it’s relevant. Theknightwho (talk) 18:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
To reply to your grasping at straws rational, asking User:Mellohi! to start a discussion on their formatting change proposal is not "bullying". --{{victar|talk}} 18:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Victar You're not really helping yourself when you immediately go on to make comments like this. Theknightwho (talk) 09:41, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry, we don't all the the ability to block people when we're tired of talking to them like you do. --{{victar|talk}} 11:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Victar Yes, always dodging the point must be exhausting for you. Theknightwho (talk) 17:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
TKW, you do a lot of skillful and useful technical work, and I didn't support either of the previous votes to desysop you because they were trying to desysop you for doing ultimately correct stuff (e.g. blocking Dan Polansky) ... and you tend to only do temperature-raising / less-than-ideal things when other people are doing such things and are unsympathetic/problematic themselves, so it's hard to defend any one of them ... but at a certain point, it becomes noticeable that in the multiple situations which keep coming up where "another editor and you are behaving in less-than-ideal ways, and then (e.g.) you issue a block or page-protection/lock which it would've been better if someone else, or no-one, had issued", the common factor is you. I have to admit I've started to wonder if things would go more smoothly if you were a Template Editor and Interface Editor rather than an Admin...? - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@-sche In this situation, I wasn’t involved at all before issuing the block. Theknightwho (talk) 18:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Source of Ravensbergisch-Lippisch Vocabulary edit

Hello,

In scrolling through Old Saxon vocabulary, I often see edits made by you regarding Ravensbergisch-Lippisch vocabulary terms. I have a PDF of a Ravensbergisch-Hochdeutsch Dictionary, however some terms in there are different than those in these edits. I was wondering if I may know what source you are using; I am very interested in this dialect, and this makes me think that there may be other dictionaries that I have not found.

Thank you,

FWRabbermann (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello @FWRabbermann. There are quite a few, see https://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/bibliographie/lippbibl.htm. Good luck in your research. -- Sokkjō 18:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

*h2éwsōs / -ōs edit

While it's true on the face of it that the paradigms given in *h₂éwsōs and *-ōs don't match, there are additional complexities to consider: First, I was greatly surprised that the suffix is defined as acrostatic, as long suffixal ō is usually the hallmark of amphikinetic inflection; the descendants don't help out definitively because accented root vowel features in both paradigms, Greek generalizes (é)-(o)-E anyways as evidenced by *awhóh-os, and the Latin nouns are really hard to disentangle from their respective -eō verbs. So unless you have a good source saying otherwise I would suggest editing the paradigm in *-ōs to (é)-ōs/(0)-(0)-és (from which the Greek and Latin paradigms could be traditionally leveled; alternatively this plus "later acrostatic inflection"), and linking to -ōs in the etymology of h2éwsōs.

Additionally I need to point out how badly the paradigmatic approach works for Wiktionary. The paradigms are idealized abstractions and usually dont fit the reflex data without much analogy, leading to so many unconventional paradigms implemented on various pages (which often don't really fit the data very well either). Case in point the other s-stems which traditionally would be reconstructed as proterokinetic (é)-(0)s-E/(0)-(é)s-E later remodeled to (tentatively acrostatic) (é)-(o)s-E/(é)-(e)s-E, hysterokinetic (0)-(é)s-s/(0)-(0)-(é) though I don't know if its ever attested like that, and amphikinetic (é)-(o)-s/(0)-(0)-és. Don't you think it would be true to principle to give all of them like that even though they almost never show up like that? And then maybe add a small dossier of common analogical changes in the reflexes. Or make it easier and let the hodge-podge back-projections of the reflexes remain but dont call them by their traditional paradigm names. Anatol Rath (talk) 21:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Anatol Rath. I'm fine with you changing the paradigm on *-ōs to amphikinetic, just please mention in a reconstruction note that Sihler reconstructs it with a non-ablauting stem. Thanks for following up. And yes, idealized reconstructions vs. reality is always going to be a headache. --{{victar|talk}} 23:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Question about Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/aland edit

The entry states: Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *alandī (“nourishing, healing”), present participle of *alan (“to nourish”). Instead of Proto-Indo-European, should that read Proto-Germanic *alandī or Proto-West Germanic *alandī? Thanks so much! ElkandAcquerne (talk) 19:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply