Wiktionary:Grease pit/2021/February

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← January 2021 · February 2021 · March 2021 → · (current)

---

Out of memory!

Requests for verification/Non-English has run out of memory. All the tricks I know for reducing memory usage don't apply to a page outside of mainspace. One possibility might be nowikis or subst: for ping-type modules, since they're useless after the initial edit when they're added. Another possibility would be mocking up the output of some of the CJKV and Thai templates, because they use exorbitant amounts of resources to produce transliterations. Or maybe some of the completed/resolved rfvs could be archived early. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:41, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The ultimate solution is to close more RFVs. (Have you closed any recently?) The proximate solution is probably just to archive a bunch of threads early, as you said. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:29, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

I expect that RfVs for non-English language definitions would take longer to close properly, giving them a fair chance, given the smaller numbers of those competent to find cites, exercise judgment about what definition a cite might support, and rewrite the definition to fit the cites found. Why wouldn't we split the page along the lines of script or language family? DCDuring (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

This discussion is already being held at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2021/February#Splitting WT:RFVN. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:33, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Moving pages

If the main definition of an entry is at A, and B is defined as, let's say, "Alternative form of A", then can I move the main definition from A to B using the "Move" feature, or do I have to copy and paste everything manually? What is the recommended way of carrying out this procedure? Mihia (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

It could be done, but it's usually not worth the trouble, especially since preserving the revision history of both pages can get tricky, and might require an admin. Although there's a risk when moving content from one page to another of breaking the chain of attribution necessary for the Creative Commons license, that can be solved by mentioning the other page in your edit comment, as in "adding definitions from A". Chuck Entz (talk) 19:54, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Mihia (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

nocat

{{present participle of}} has an undocumented "nocat" parameter. Anyone know what this is and on what basis one would use it? Mihia (talk) 18:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

That parameter is used on a lot of templates; setting it to |nocat=1 means the template won't put the entry into the category it normally would (in this case, "CAT:Languagename present participles"). I've mostly seen it used when the headword line is "{{head|xyz|present participle}}" or the like, which already categorizes the entry, so having {{present participle of}} categorize as well would be redundant. {{infl}}, on the other hand, doesn't categorize, so I think it makes sense to change {{present participle of|xyz|verb|nocat=1}} to {{infl of|xyz|verb||pres|part}}. (For English, though I usually change it {{en-ing form of|verb}} so that the entry says the form in question is both a past participle and a gerund, since all English ing-forms are both.) —Mahāgaja · talk 10:05, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Thanks. Mihia (talk) 18:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Interwiki linking of proverbs and other pages with minor differeces

A_caballo_regalado_no_le_mires_el_diente. and When_in_Rome,_do_as_the_Romans_do. do not seem to have the desired effect, same as [1] and [2]. Interwiki linking is apparently still blocked to pages that are only redirects.

• mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Cognate#Does_Cognate_create_links_to_redirection_pages?
• mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Cognate#Cognate_on_Wiktionary:_discussion_about_redirects
• https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T163717
• https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165061
• Discussion year 2017

How to solve the problem then? Taylor 49 (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

A 4-year wait is nothing in WMF-land :) But it looks like there's some movement now in phabricator:T165061. Jberkel 00:14, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Eppur si muove! According to the ticket status this is now implemented and will be deployed soon. – Jberkel 10:42, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

"blends" in {{blend}} category

Does anyone know where does the word "blends" in pages that use the template {{blend}} get the string of the word "blends" to put in the categories' name (e.g. Category:English blends)? I have searched for it in modules and templates and found nothing for it. RXerself (talk) 22:46, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Is Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/terms by etymology what you're looking for? —Mahāgaja · talk 23:25, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja I don't think so. It seems to be used by {{autocat}} not Template:blend. I tried changing the entry for "blends" there and use the show preview button for the airbill page and it does not change the label for category "English blends". RXerself (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

@RXerself Take a look at the template definition in Template:blend. You'll see the following:

{{#invoke:compound/templates|compound_like|text=[[Appendix:Glossary#blend|{{#if:{{{nocap|}}}|b|B}}lend]]|cat=blends|template=blend}}

Note in particular the cat=blends part; this is what causes a category like Category:English blends to appear. Benwing2 (talk) 05:14, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2 OMG I forget to look it there at first! Thank you very much. RXerself (talk) 07:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Change to category tree not reflected in category pages

I edited Module:category_tree/topic_cat/data/Human to insert a new subcategory, Category:Collectible card games between Category:Card games and Category:Magic: The Gathering, which previously had a parent-child relationship. However, when I view Category:en:Card games, I see both Category:en:Magic: The Gathering and Category:en:Collectible card games as direct children in the "Subcategories" section. Also Category:en:Collectible card games does not show Category:en:Magic: The Gathering as a subcat. But other aspects of the UI do reflect my intended hierarchy. At Category:en:Magic: The Gathering, the breadcrumb links at the top include "Collectible card games" as a parent, and Category:en:Collectible card games is included in the parent categories at the bottom of the page. Is there a step I missed? I tried purging the cache at Category:en:Card games (by appending "?action=purge" to the url), but it had no effect. Colin M (talk) 00:14, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@Colin M It's there now. Categories aren't affected by purging the cache. Updating categories requires either an actual edit (a null edit will do) or an automated process that has an edit queue which is usually already full of older changes from all over Wikidom. If you don't want to wait, do null edits on the affected categories. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Links to incubating Wiktionaries

With Template:tt+, you can easily link translation into foreign languages: after the translation, a link will appear in superscript. After learning, for example, that the German translation for 'house' is Haus, you can click the link and consult de:Haus to find out more. By the advances of Wikimedia software, it can even link to non-existent Wiktionaries as long as there is a test wiki in Incubator. Yay for our developers!
But there's one bug. The lemmas of those test wikis are still out of reach. When I try to use {tt+} for the Zealandic Wiktionary, for example puut (Zealandic for 'frog'), zea:puut does not redirect to incubator:Wt/zea/puut but to incubator:Wt/zea/Vòblad, the Main Page of the project.
As you can see, this doesn't bring users much further (even though they will now be informed of the test wiki's existence). And since I write quite elaborate entries on this test wiki, I want them to be read and I do think they can be very helpful to those interested in the language. I understand this is a problem that stretches beyond Wiktionary, but it might be in its particular interest, since unlike Wikipedia, it actually makes use of the possibility to link to incubating wikis by using a regular interwiki link. Steinbach (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

This practically requires Lua for it to be implemented, and even then manually updating the link of Wiktionaries that exist. However, I'm not convinced we should be linking to Wiktionary editions that are still in the Incubator. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 21:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Lua error: not enough memory

This error seems to pop up now and then in long pages. It's currently visible in the second half of 我, and doesn't go away with a simple purge. Is this a known issue? //Rotsee (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes; Wiktionary:Lua memory errors. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 21:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Old Latin links

At Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/denɣwā, the Old Latin descendant links to dingua#Old Latin. I am led to believe that we no longer use "Old Latin" as a L2 header. Can the template be amended to link to the #Latin anchor? This, that and the other (talk) 03:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Pinging @Gamren as the last person to edit Module:languages/datax, which might be the problematic module (although I really have no idea). This, that and the other (talk) 11:02, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@This, that and the other Uhhh... if Old Latin isn't considered separate from Latin, why don't you just use the code la in the entry? Why would we use or have a code for an unrecognized language?__Gamren (talk) 11:09, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

My question was motivated by the fact that someone (not me) has used the itc-ola code in a lot of these Proto-Italic reconstruction entries (Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/dwenos is another). I assumed it was practice in these cases to preserve the "Old Latin:" text but point the link to #Latin. If not, why is itc-ola in Module:languages in the first place? This, that and the other (talk) 11:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

At Wiktionary:Votes/2019-08/Abolish the Old Latin header it was voted to abolish Old Latin as a separate language from Latin. Our Old Latin entries have all been reincorporated into Latin, but "itc-ola" is still a full-fledged language code; no one has yet changed it to an etymology-only code. Once that happens, Category:Old Latin language and all its subcategories should be deleted, as it has been superseded by CAT:Old Latin. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:26, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Ugly Cites from Quiet Quentin

Hey- I recently used Quiet Quentin to create some citations on Huangchi. However, the two cites I added are ugly as hell compared to my beautiful archive.org cites. Is there any way to improve them from what they are now? I ask this because I anticipate that I will be using Quiet Quentin a lot over the coming months: Google Books has access to some materials/has searchable OCR that archive.org does not, so I am forced to use Google Books. I am not satisfied with these citations at all. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative The code for formatting is found at MediaWiki:Gadget-QQ.js. Can you specify what you think is wrong with it?__Gamren (talk) 11:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Add misspelling parameter to head templates

Because misspellings are not supposed to be in lemma categories (see Wiktionary:Misspellings § Formatting) and the only workaround is copying the information into {{head}} (e.g., Special:Diff/61800642).

Compare

{{head|en|misspelling|third-person singular simple present|televizes|present participle|televizing|simple past and past participle|televized}}

with

{{en-verb|misspelling=1}}. J3133 (talk) 09:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

@J3133 This can be done but I'm not sure it should. My alternative is to simply use {{head|en|misspelling}} without any inflections. Benwing2 (talk) 03:32, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

---

Help with {{az-conj}}

I'd like to add three values to the template. They are all infinite categories, so they can go between the converb and the gerund in the template.

• General temporal participle - formed by adding -də/-da to the subject non-past participle
• Adverbial participle of intensification formed by adding -ca/cə to the first-person plural past simple.
• Specific temporal participle - formed by adding -kən (no vowel harmony) to the third-person singular future indefinite

Thanks in advance! Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 20:32, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Done. (Note: for such infinite tense names, I use names that you created. I also applying these on accel-forms) BengkelBerkah05 (talk) 13:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

@BengkelBerkah05: Thanks a million! One more thing: for adverbial participle of intencification, it's formed from first-person plural past simple, that is for the verb olmaq it should output olduqca, whereas it now outputs *oldumca. Can you please fix this? Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 18:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)x

Now, I fixed the error (see Special:MobileDiff/61816421). BengkelBerkah05 (talk) 02:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@BengkelBerkah05: Thank you! How about the negative forms? It should also output olmayanda, olmadıqca and olmayaraq. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 10:52, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

On a different note: the template currently contains a factual error. third-person singular present perfect does not end on -miş in modern Azerbaijani, but on miş-dir. This copula -dir is obligatory for third person singular. Can you add that too? (It has four harmonic variants, but you probably know that). Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 15:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Done. BengkelBerkah05 (talk) 08:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. The only thing that remains to be done now is mirroring all changes for the negative as well. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 10:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

WT:ACCEL in Swedish

Hello! I am wondering how acceleration could be added to swedish form templates? I've looked some into it and I'm too scared to experiment on any of the templates or modules. There are some acceleration on the Swedish adjective headword template Template:sv-adj, but apart from that all forms of any word would have to be added manually. It would make it much easier for me and others, and would make it less likely making errors if it was semi-automatic. I would like to request (and suggest) starting with the noun templates located here: [3]

Can anybody either instruct me, or even better, make the requested changes in the templates? --Fringilla (talk) 21:57, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

@Fringilla I've changed {{sv-decl-noun}} to illustrate it, which is inherited by templates that use it, such as {{sv-infl-noun-c-ar}}. Basically, you just need to pass to the {{l}} template the parameter accel-form, exchanging pipes for {{!}}. Also, are you aware that in order to actually use it, you have to turn it on in your Preferences->Gadgets?__Gamren (talk) 12:20, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gamren Thank you very much! It seems to affect some of the templates already pointing to that one, like Template:sv-infl-noun-c-ar. However it seems most of the noun (and verbs use another) templates use a module (Module:sv-nouns) in which I can't find any {{l}} links. That is where I got stuck when I tried doing this the first time. But I will check out other Modules and compare how they do it, unless you maybe know how to add the changes in the Module? --Fringilla (talk) 13:09, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Fringilla It seems that task is delegated to links.full_link, i.e. the function full_link in Module:links, which takes an accel parameter.__Gamren (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Form-of templates not bolding the linked-to word

In e.g. frenchified or frenchise, the main entry which is being linked to is no longer presented in bold. Seems to be due to a recent change, as cached pages still have bold until I purge the cache. Bolding is absent both when I am logged in and when I am logged out, across several browsers. - -sche (discuss) 03:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

@-sche Sorry, I broke this, am fixing it now. Benwing2 (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Should be fixed. Benwing2 (talk) 03:58, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy fix. :) - -sche (discuss) 07:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Inconsistency between {{given name}} and {{surname}}

• {{given name}}: A surname, equivalent to English example

  equivalent to the English example.

• {{surname}}: An unknown-gender given name, equivalent to English example

  equivalent to English example.

J3133 (talk) 05:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Technical maintenance planed‬

A maintenance operation will be performed tomorrow morning UTC time (Wednesday 17th at 07:00 AM UTC).

It will impact all wikis and is supposed to last up to one minute.

During this time, new translations may fail, and Notifications may not be delivered. For more details about the operation and on all impacted services, please check on Phabricator.

A banner will be displayed 30 minutes before the operation.

Thank you, SGrabarczuk (WMF) 17:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Add termlang parameter to {{IPA}}

E.g., sinh § Translingual: “key” should link to Appendix:English pronunciation not Appendix:Translingual pronunciation, however it should be in Category:Translingual terms with IPA pronunciation not Category:English terms with IPA pronunciation, as the term is translingual (thus {{IPA|en|termlang=mul}}). J3133 (talk) 08:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Audio red links

Is there any way we can find a list of all pages using {{audio}} which generate a red link? i.e. there's no actual audio file there. I assume Wonderfool has made a huge number of errors when batch-uploading low-quality audios over the years. Oxlade2000 (talk) 13:31, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Oxlade2000: Category:Pages with broken file links —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Reference template: switches based on edition

Trying to make a newly-created template {{R:la:OHCGL}} cover both editions of the book, but have no template creation experience and can't figure this out on intuition alone. If 2 edition is specified, change year and ISBN (I've put these in the template) and add ", Second Edition" to the title, as seen on the cover (eg. on Amazon). Perhaps it's better to make this optional and revert to the 1st edition otherwise - but having edition as third parameter is unintuitive. On the other hand, specifying edition every time might seem bothersome at first but you get used to it. Brutal Russian (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Brutal Russian: I think I have it, but please double check that the ISBNs correspond to the correct editions. You didn't say which was which, and I can't figure it out from Google Books. At the moment, it's giving 978-0-9747927-5-0 for the second edition and 978-0-9895142-7-9 for the first. —Mahāgaja · talk 22:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, that works like a charm (I have swapped the ISBNs), but I'm still wondering how one would go about using a parameter (edition) to change another one (the title), but without displaying the first of these, to avoid "Second Edition, 2nd edition". Also, if I want "edition=2" to also give the same result as "edition=2nd", do I use #switch? Brutal Russian (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Brutal Russian: I'm not sure. {{cite-book}}'s own |edition= simply outputs whatever you put in, so |edition=2 will give "2 edition", |edition=second will give "second edition", |edition=new will give "new edition", |edition=2020 will give "2020 edition". I think it would be more intuitive for this template's |edition= to behave the same way. On the other hand, as long as there are only two editions, I could write the template so that if |edition= has any value at all, it will give the info for the second edition. Then |edition=2, |edition=2nd, |edition=second, |edition=2020 would all have the same behavior. One drawback to that is that counterintuitive inputs like |edition=1, |edition=1st, |edition=first, |edition=2009, |edition=your text here would all also give the information for the second edition. Another drawback to that is that it wouldn't work if there were to be a third edition at some point in the future. But if you like, we can certainly change |edition=2nd to |edition=second if you prefer to have the word "second" spelled out. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Brutal Russian: Yep, #switch is the right way to go. Something like |edition={{#switch:{{{edition|{{{ed}}}}}}|2|2nd|second=Second}} should get 2, 2nd, and second to all give the same results. If you want to have the title change by edition but not show the edition parameter, you could delete the edition parameter entirely and just have something like

|title=Outline of the Historical and Comparative Grammar of Latin{{#switch:{{{edition|{{{ed}}}}}}<!--
  -->|1|1st|first=, First Edition<!--
  -->|2|2nd|second=, Second Edition<!--
  -->|3|3rd|third=, Third Edition<!--
  -->|<!--
-->}}

But I don’t know why you’d do that instead of just leaving the edition out of the title and having it as a separate edition parameter. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Why, because yolo :D For curiousity - I just want to figure out how the syntax works; in case I come across a book that actually changes its title across editions - in fact this very book is currently listed on amazon/Outline-Historical-Comparative-Grammar-Second/dp/0989514277 as '(Second Edition) 2nd ed. Edition' xD, which gave me an idea to also list it here like that - not to mention the better visibility. An additional complication this would avoid is the fact that worldcat once confusingly lists the 2nd, corrected printing of the first edition of this book as '2., corrected ed'. Any way, thank you for the help, I've now implemented the simple edition switch. One thing I couldn't figure out is how to replace the automatically-supplied "edition" with its upper-case equivalent, obviously because OCD. Is that even possible? Brutal Russian (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

<hiero> does not wrap around images

E.g., see elephas. J3133 (talk) 10:35, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

MediaWiki:WikiHieroTempFix.js. @Surjection —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:26, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully fixed, Special:Diff/61879426. I don't remember why the inline-block was needed, but I can't immediately find anything that breaks if it's removed. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 11:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Does the anagram-adding bot still run?

I was expecting to see monotheism pop up at nomotheism... Equinox ◑ 04:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@DTLHS runs the anagram bot. The tasks he runs and their frequency does not seem to be posted. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:12, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I got bored running scripts. Maybe one day I will run it again. DTLHS (talk) 03:48, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I like entries that are anagram-proof. I regard anagrams as a waste of space. DonnanZ (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Template:ne-conj

I'm not really sure why this has a module error on the template page and not on the documentation page, but something needs to be fixed: this template has been in CAT:E for one reason or another for weeks. Pinging @Kushalpok01, whose work on the module and the template documentation is responsible. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:11, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:Reference templates lacking the author or editor parameters

I don't know who uses this, but I noticed {{R:Lexico}} references are ending up in this category, and I don't understand why - sidelight for example. DonnanZ (talk) 17:00, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Because {{R:Lexico}} calls {{cite-book}} but doesn't use |author= or |editor=. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll ping @Sgconlaw, who's the only one who has edited it lately, to see if that was the intended result. DonnanZ (talk) 23:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Victar requested for this tracking category to be added some time back as he was working on something. Victar, do you still need it? — SGconlaw (talk) 04:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I once asked for this function to be noinclude'd so that only the templates themselves, not the articles they're used in, would be in the cleanup categories, and was told (I don't remember by whom) that having all the articles in the category as well would help attract attention to the problem. Seems a little passive-aggressive to me, but OK. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:46, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw I don't recall... --{{victar|talk}} 10:48, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, in that case I’ll remove the tracking categories. — SGconlaw (talk) 15:30, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done. — SGconlaw (talk) 19:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh. So nobody wants the category? DonnanZ (talk) 19:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

• @Sgconlaw: I have now noticed a lingering red link from this deleted category, which was hidden previously (before the deletion), see out-and-home. Does {{R:Lexico}} need altering? DonnanZ (talk) 17:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

It was a caching issue. I did a null edit and the category disappeared. {{R:Lexico}} itself doesn't create any tracking categories. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: I tried the same thing! Anyway, it's gone. DonnanZ (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2021 (UTC)