Talk:orgul

RFV discussion: February–March 2020

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.

---

orgul, orgel

Supposedly a native-Old-English-derived word meaning "pride". I found one citation which is probably of that sense, which I put at Citations:orgul. However, beyond just attestation, the etymology also needs referencing; the MED derives the Middle English word from Old French (although the old Century agrees with deriving orgul from "A[nglo-]S[axon]"). Joseph T. Shipley's Dictionary of Early English (1955, Rowman & Littlefield, →ISBN), page 472, in defining orgulous (which does seem to have survived), says it's "from orgueil, orguil, orgul, pride. Orgueil is direct from the French (12th century), presumably from an Old High German form urguol, renowned. Orgueil has not been used since the 16th century, save as a fresh borrowing from the French." I just created orgueil with some citations and an etymology section that derives it from (Old) French. If orgul is also attested, we'll need to determine if we're dealing with two words or one, and where to lemmatize it, and what etymology it has... - -sche (discuss) 18:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, there is Old English orgol (“pride, arrogance”), which claims this as a descendant. The -ul ending looks more like Middle English. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:20, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to add the other sense of orgel to this RFV; supposedly it's a Dutch-derived word used in Japan to mean a music box, but I can find few English citations of orgel with any meaning at all: Citations:orgel. - -sche (discuss) 01:58, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Wait, what? It's certainly attested in OE. How does that mean it failed, @Kiwima? --{{victar|talk}} 22:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

It failed as a modern English word. You are welcome to add it as a Middle English or Old English word. Kiwima (talk) 22:48, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

@Kiwima: That's fair, but when did RFVs become RFDs? --{{victar|talk}} 23:05, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

It has always been the case that when a word or sense fails RFV it is deleted. However, there are some key differences between RFV and RFD. 1) RFV is essentially an "opt-in" sort of situation - if no one verifies a word, it is not included (gets deleted) (in other words, the default is to delete the word) - whereas RFD is an "opt-out" sort of situation - only if there is a consensus does a word get deleted (that is, the default is to keep the word). 2) RFV is a matter of finding evidence that a word is actually used while RFD is a matter of arguing that a word is inclusion-worthy. Kiwima (talk) 00:00, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, @Kiwima. --{{victar|talk}} 00:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)