Talk:worth

See Special:PermanentLink/24549046#worth. DCDuring TALK 23:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

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worth

As what PoS is "worth" being used in an expression like "more worth having"? DCDuring 01:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably adjective, but Ican't be certain from the incomplete example you've given. --EncycloPetey 02:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing he means something like "Friendship_i is more worth having ____i than money [is]", i.e. roughly "If forced to choose, I'd rather have friendship than money." I agree that it's an adjective, but it's an interesting one in that it takes a directly construed nominal as an obligatory complement (as in "worth + nominal"); I can't think of any other English adjectives that do that. —Ruakh_TALK 02:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Didn't mean to be so ter. yes to above. Maybe I can think of another similar word. I was interested to correctly putting in PoS for its comparability. 15-20% of adjs. deemed comparable have proven not to be. end of. DCDuring 03:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

According to dictionary.com, it is a preposition, "having" being a verbal noun (or gerund, if you prefer). "Worth" is not comparable; that is, you can't put "more" in front of it, so "Friendship is more worth having than money" is not grammatically correct. You need to rephrase your sentence as either "Having friendship is worth more than having money" or "It is worth more to have friendship than to have money." — Paul G 18:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I hadn't read the usage notes at worth. If it is an adjective, then it should be comparable as described, but this gives the difficulties Ruakh has identified. Should we be saying it as a preposition after all? — Paul G 18:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I am aware that the bard is no authority on grammar, but:

• The Winter's Tale, Page 157, 1887 ed.

  Fore your Queen died, she was more worth such gazes / Than what you look on now.

Other authors using the construction include Lord Chesterfield, Fielding, Walpole, Browning, Chesterton, Barrie, Emerson, Pound, Sherwood Anderson. I think we need to find the grammar that justifies this widespread use in many well-known works.

Fowler spends 2.5 columns on this, mostly on the need for exactly one "object", including: "The important fact is that the adjective worth requires what is most easily described as an object." He explicit mentions the non-incorrectness of using the construction with a gerund, but prefers the infinitive. DCDuring 19:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't see any reason to believe it is functioning as a preposition in any of the examples above, in part because there is no other preposition that I can find to replace it yet retain a grammatical sentence. My Webster's says that (deprecated template usage) worth is a noun, adjective, and auxiliary verb. I'm not sure, but this could be an auxiliary verb usage (which actually has a separate etymology for the noun/adjective). --EncycloPetey 01:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is something old interesting in support of the notion of worth as a preposition. Also MW3 calls it a preposition and labels both of worth's adjectival senses as archaic. The Internet Grammar includes "worth" in its class of "marginal prepositions" with "minus", "granted", and a few other words derived from verbs. I have not net found any authority that deals with the awkward fact of fairly common usage of the comparative "more worth [present participle] than ....".

Judging from all this, I can see that I am unlikely to come up with any other word that is quite like "worth".

EP: I see what you mean about the auxilary verb, but it doesn't seem to have the "value" meaning and still doesn't explain the comparative. "More" doesn't seem to modify the participle, it seems to modify "worth". "worth [present participle]" seems to form an adjective without obvious restrictions on the nature of the participle. Any verb that reflects anything that consumes time or resources can be more or less "worthy". DCDuring 04:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The OED is unequivocal: as well as being a noun and a verb, "worth" is an adjective, not a preposition. The OED's lexicographers know their stuff, so I think we are safe to go with their view. — Paul G 09:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the CGEL coverage of this issue. It's in a footnote on page 1407. Apparently, they too find no other words that function as (deprecated template usage) worth does in this capacity. This is in the section on extraposition, and has the examples:

• In discussing the future it is also worth considering the impact on Antarctica...
• It was stupid telling my parents.
• It was stupid to tell my parents.

The point they make is that (deprecated template usage) worth is the only word in English that requires use of the gerund/participial in this construction, while other words may take an infinitive instead. The portion following worth (or stupid in the example above) is a clause/phrase functioning as the subject of the sentence. Extraposition places the subject in a somewhat unusual location, but it is still the subject of the sentence. --EncycloPetey 17:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This unique construction is worth analysing without including complications like the use of "it", as in the cases CGEL provides. In the immediately preceding sentence, for example, the participle does not seem to be the subject. I'd love to find a comment on the comparative uses, too! I think someone has written an article about characterizing worthy as a preposition, but I couldn't suss out their conclusion from reading the one teaser page I had access to. DCDuring 18:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Not the subject? Depends on how you read it. In the sentence: "This unique construction is worth analysing", I see analysing as the subject participle, with an object of "this unique contruction", then a predicate linking verb and adjective. Extraposition puts the elements in a non-standard order. That's not the only way this could be interpreted (as you have noted another way yourself), but that's the way I would personally interpret the grammar. In any case, "worth" is uniquely weird. --EncycloPetey 02:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you finish the analysis, then? "Analysing this unique construction is worth[X]" "Worth" still wants something. Possibilities include: "-y", "-while", " the effort", " the time", etc.. From the discussions here, I am under the impression that the old grammarian's ploy of saying that there is something "understood", but omitted, is no longer considered to be playing fair or modern or post-modern or .... Conceptually or metaphorically, the idea of worth implies a kind of balancing of labor and/or time against the value gained by the costly activity reflected in the verb. But the grammar shouldn't be so dependent on the semantic content, should it? DCDuring 02:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

The Middle English form WURTH is from Old English WYRÐE[7] (worthy), influenced by WEORǷ (valuable); Gothic WAIRTHS id., cognate with Proto-Germanic type *WERÐOS[7], from Proto-Indo-European root shown in the main page entry. From this latter root is also Welsh GWERTH[7] (value) and CHWERTHI[3] (to buy). The original sense of these cognates seems to relate to valuable. Compare also Cornish GORDHYANS[6], (for GWORTHIANS[5]) (glory), borrowed from G(W)ORÐ[4]* > WYRÐE[3]. The forms with the letter 'IDH' have the aforesaid meanings; but only those with the letter 'THORN' as their ending relate to 'towards, opposite or against' in meaning, = Cornish GORTH, from the same Proto-Indo-European root as that presented in the Entry page. Earlier citation is from Concise Etymological Dictionary, by Walter W. Skeat.

[0] means 'Absolutely not; [1] means 'Exceedingly unlikely'; [2] means 'Very dubious'; [3] means 'Questionable'; [4] means 'Possible'; [5] means 'Probable'; [6] means 'Likely'; [7] means 'Most Likely' or *Unattested; [8] means 'Attested'; [9] means 'Obvious' - only used for close matches within the same language or dialect, at linkable periods.

• Dr. Ken George KESVA Breton orientated Unified Cornish Dictionary.

Andrew H. Gray 22:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC) Andrew (talk)

(obsolete, except in set phrases) To be, become, betide.

What set phrases? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:46, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

A quantity of something that may be purchased

3. A quantity of something that may be purchased for a specified sum or by a specified means: ten dollars' worth of natural gas; wanted their money's worth.
2. Material or market value: stocks with a worth of ten million dollars.
https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=worth

--Backinstadiums (talk) 20:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

noun: the practical value of somebody/something

What does practical mean in this definition? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)