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Wiktionary:Tea room

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Tea house party in Japan (not tea ceremony)-J. M. W. Silver.jpg

A place to ask for help on finding quotations, etymologies, or other information about particular words. The Tea room is named to accompany the Beer parlour.

For questions about the technical operation of Wiktionary use the Beer parlour. For questions about specific content, you're in the right place.

Tea room archives edit

Please do not edit section titles as this breaks links on talk pages and in other discussion fora.

October 2017

Vanessa etymologyEdit

The girl's name comes from an invention of Jonathan Swift, for a lady-friend of his named Esther Van whatever. But it's also a butterfly genus, from Greek Φάνης. Are these totally unrelated? Could, for example, Swift have borrowed the butterfly genus name (if it existed at that time!) because it happened to fit with his lover's name? Or is it all a coincidence? Equinox 00:17, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Nope, the butterflies were named Vanessa decades after Swift died. To rub salt in, Swift died the year Fabricius was born. I also found some paper relating to this: [1] Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 00:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

sporty sense 2, of carsEdit

"Flashy in appearance. My new car looks sporty but is actually very practical." Maybe sporty cars are flashy, but is this the actual definition? Doesn't it mean more like "intended for racing, like a sports car"? Equinox 01:19, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Why not "like a sports car"? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:55, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

'Phags-pa script letter names in ChineseEdit

@Prisencolin has been adding these in a few Chinese entries, like and . Are these valid? @Wyang, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:26, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Well... it is modelled almost entirely after the Middle Chinese initials system. I would change it to:
  1. () a Middle Chinese initial and the 'Phags-pa script letter ...
Wyang (talk) 06:36, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: OK, that'd work. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Alright sounds good.--Prisencolin (talk) 06:29, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

sex industryEdit

Would sex industry be SOP? I noticed we don't have an entry for it. We do have sex work. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:22, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd say yes, but i'd say the same regarding sex work and several terms at sex#Derived terms. But as there are other SOP-like terms and as e.g. Sexindustrie wouldn't be SOP (as it's a single word, cp. WT:COALMINE), i'd say it should be okay. - 00:04, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

content; sleepEdit

I'm wondering whether "content" needs an additional sense in the Web 2.0 sense of media available for downloading from a website. That might do as a definition. The existing senses don't seem to cover this meaning. — Paul G (talk) 12:26, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I think Web 2.0 is far too specific. The sense is something like "the actual useful material on a site/in a book/magazine/etc. that people come for, rather than structure or filler". Our "subject matter" sense comes closest but could perhaps be broadened. Equinox 14:10, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

"Sleep" is used informally as a unit of time until some future event, as in "Two more sleeps until Christmas". We already have "An act or instance of sleeping", but I'm not sure whether or not that would include this. Should this be considered as separate sense? — Paul G (talk) 12:26, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Singapore English?Edit

Looking at the entry for lim made me wonder - is there such a thing as Singapore English, or is it actually a Malay word? DonnanZ (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm that there is a Singapore English, and I can't see why you'd doubt that a large Anglophone community would have its own dialect. See w:Singapore English for more. (Also, the word is not Malay; as the entry states, it's Chinese.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:43, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
OK, the word kopi fooled me, which occurs in Malay. I have never been there, although my father was taken as a POW there. DonnanZ (talk) 16:50, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Singapore English does exist for sure, but I have doubts about this word in particular. I've sent it to RFV. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:15, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion between Singapore English, the official form, and Singlish which is unofficial, and use of it in the media is frowned upon by the government. Both categories are listed in this entry. DonnanZ (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
There's a dialect continuum between standard Singaporean English and Singlish. This word would definitely be considered Singlish. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


There's a sense missing here, with a technical name I can't remember. It's the sense in "If you're hungry then we have chips". The chips exist regardless of whether or not the addressee is hungry - rather, the then is short for something like "then you'll be interested to know that...". Does anyone know the term for this? Smurrayinchester (talk) 19:49, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like adverb sense 4. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 00:41, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
This isn't specific to the word "then", though, since "then" can always be omitted in "if...then" pairs. You often hear waiters say something like "If you need anything, my name is Mike", and every Sunday at church our priest invites people to coffee hour after the service saying "If this is your first time here, the parish hall is around the back in the neighboring building." —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:14, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
@Smurrayinchester: [[If]] has a definition that uses the term relevance conditional to cover what we are talking about, but the associated WP article and the works that article references don't seem to cover the ordinary-language phenomenon in a way I find useful. CGEL calls the clause following if a protasis and briefly discusses relevance protases:
One further special case where Q is not a consequence of P involves 'relevance protases':
[6] i If you need some help, Helen is willing to lend a hand.
    ii If you're interested, Dick's coming to the party too.
Here Q is true independently of whether P is true. Nevertheless, such examples are consistent with the invariant meaning of if, which excludes only the case where Q is false and P true. In uttering [6] I'm asserting Q, with P ex[ressing a condition on the relevance of Q. Such examples might be regarded as a shorthand was of saying something like If you need some help you will be interested to know that Helen is willing to lend a hand or If you're interested it is worth telling you that Dick is coming to the party. There is thus some implicit predication in the actually expressed Q is an argument.
HTH. It helped me. DCDuring (talk) 12:25, 2 October 2017 (UTC)


Hello, I added a Discussion post on "caelum" page. When the noun means "sky/heaven", I found that the plural is irregural (it follows the masculine II decl.). But I am not expert in Latin, so I would like a confirmation. Thanks. —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

It's true; the plural of caelum is masculine caelī. I don't know how to fix it. I think we may have to add a word-specific declension to Module:la-utilities, but I don't know how to do that. @Kc kennylau? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Don't think module edits are needed - gave it a shot. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 19:58, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

stroke of luckEdit

This may be entry-worthy, considering the presence of stroke of genius, and stroke of work. See this. DonnanZ (talk) 23:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd rather delete those two entries. --Barytonesis (talk) 08:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not impressed by that view either. DonnanZ (talk) 08:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

dog hunterEdit

It might be a pseudo-anglicism. I created it based on the Russian: догха́нтер (dogxántɛr). At the Russian Wiktionary they want to know. Ringing @Cinemantique. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:44, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

See dogcatcher, who is not necessarily an exterminator. DCDuring (talk) 08:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:43, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The original post sounds like it's a question for WT:RFVE to determine whether or not English dog hunter (or maybe dog-hunter, doghunter?) does exist.
The mentioning of dogcatcher could imply that dog hunter is unlikely to exist.
Searching for "dog hunters" brings up some results which might be relevant. However, the term might (also?) refer to people who hunt (animals) with dogs instead of people who hunt dogs. For example, seems to be an organisation of US-Americans who hunt with dogs. - 13:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Latin superprehendoEdit

Is this an actual attested word that needs its own entry? Or was it later created on the basis of the (internally formed) Romance "cognates", particularly French surprendre / Old French sorprendre? It seems like all the other Romance words for surprise ultimately came from the French, not this supposed Latin word. I see some mention this Latin word as "Medieval Latin", but I'm not sure if it's legit. Word dewd544 (talk) 18:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I found a 17th century occurrence of "superprehendit". I doubt it's found in Classical Latin though. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:48, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

make a pig's ear ofEdit

(This is just one example.) Is it correct to call this "transitive"? Equinox 18:42, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd say so. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:05, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


I know that there are more senses and sg/pl patterns exist, e.g. شِقَّة (šiqqa) -> شِقَق (šiqaq), just fixing the apartment sense for now. What should I do if I already know that not all senses, etymologies, pronunciations are covered but I can't be bothered or don't feel confident, busy, etc. to do that? Should the entry be marked for attention? It is sometimes very time-consuming to do a comprehensive entry. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that is standard Wiktionary practice: leave an {{attention}} with its first parameter being a brief explanation of what needs to be done. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:11, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I got around adding missing senses/readings but I might just use {{attention}}, if other entries seem too complicated. I actually made quite a few Korean entries with complex etymologies in the past covering just one etymology but I knew there were more. I will try to avoid it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:27, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Search vrång, find vrang?Edit

I just searched for vrång and was sent to vrang. One would assume that this is a just "fuzzy match". Except there is a Swedish word vrång, as documented on Swedish Wiktionary at vrång. Could someone create that entry and make sure this redirect does not take place any longer? MGorrone (talk) 08:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

(PS If there is a way to avoid an external link's look to the Swedish Wiktionary link, as is possible with w:Wikipedia links, please notify me. Bracketing "wt:sv:vrång" and "sv:vrång" gives me "wt:sv:vrång" and "sv:vrång" respectively.)

@MGorrone: When you search with diacritics and the entry does not exist, it will send you to the version that does exist with the same letters (though different or no diacritics). This is obviously a useful feature. If you notice a missing entry and want it to be created, this is not the place to request that. Instead, you can add vrång to WT:RE:sv.
You need to type [[:sv:vrång]] to get sv:vrång; this is because such links create interwiki links otherwise. I modified yours above accordingly, because it had added such an unwitting and unwanted interwiki link in the sidebar. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

scoprire l'acqua calda vs. reinvent the wheelEdit

One or two days ago, I looked for an Italian translation of reinvent the wheel and found scoprire l'acqua calda. That didn't seem right to me, so I posed the problem ad Italian Stack Exchange, and two out of three who commented on the issue (or rather, one commenter and the answerer) agree with me that the idioms are different. Quoting the answer, which I agree with, «'Scoprire l'acqua calda', which I usually hear in the form 'la scoperta dell'acqua calda' (the discovery of warm water), has always meant to discover something that some, or even most, already were familiar with. It is used as a dismissal.». I do not think this is the meaning of the English idiom, so this translation is incorrect and should be removed. That leaves us with the question: is there a matching idiom in Italian? And what about the other way, that is, is there an English idiom matching the above-explained meaning of 'scoprire l'acqua calda'? MGorrone (talk) 08:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

hairy eyeballEdit

An IP edited the use example back in June, swapping genders (except in the last part) and adding a claim that it was first used in the sitcom Hazel. I can't find any verification of that last one online, so does anyone know whether it is correct? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Translation of Latin book titleEdit

Could someone knowledgeable about Latin kindly translate the following book title and publisher name which appear in a citation at philematology? Thanks.

Speculum φιληματολογίας [philēmatologias] cum Sacræ tùm profanæ: Per quæstiones aliquot ex variis multorum monumentis non minus ad voluptatem quam utilitatem S.S. Theologiæ & Philologiæ Studiosorum concinnatum operâ & studio, [Wittenberg, Germany]: Sumptibus Friderici Bergeri Bibl., 1659.

SGconlaw (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Done. Whom could I tag to better format it and verify that name at the end? MGorrone (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, I have the impression that 'speculum' here doesn't literally mean 'mirror', but rather 'sum-up', like 'specchietto' in Italian refers to a sum-up table. And should we really keep those & for "et", that circumflex on operâ and that grave accent (which makes no sense if you ask me) on tùm? MGorrone (talk) 20:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It was not uncommon for older books to be titled Mirror of []: see, for example, "w:The Mirror of Justices". The idea, I suppose, was that the book reflected the type of proper behaviour described in the work. I'm not familiar with Latin, so I think it's best to retain the original diacritical marks that appear in the original work. — SGconlaw (talk) 10:48, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Someone edited this, and the code looks like before my edit: "< references />" (no space after"<"), yet the translation appears! What in the world…? I don't get that code… —This unsigned comment was added by MGorrone (talkcontribs) at 18:38, 7 October 2017‎.
Thanks very much! I tidied it up by inserting the translation into the citation which is in the "Etymology" section: see this diff. The "References" section usually just contains the code "<references />", and this causes all text that appears between "<ref>" and "</ref>" tags to appear as footnotes. — SGconlaw (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @MGorrone (or anyone else), would you like to try your hand at translating this Latin book title at carol into English as well?

Piæ cantiones ecclesiasticæ et scholasticæ vetervm episcoporum, in inclyto regno Sueciæ passim vsurpatæ, nuper studio viri cuiusdam reuerendiss: de ecclesia Dei & schola Aboënsi in Finlandia optimè meriti accuratè à mendis correctæ, & nunc typis commissæ, opera Theodorici Petri Nylandensis. His adiecti sunt aliquot ex psalmis recentioribus [Pious Ecclesiastical and School Songs of the Ancient Bishops, Used throughout the Glorious Kingdom of Sweden, […]] (1582)

Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw Maybe that is how the Italian "specchietto" arose. As for the diacritics, I find that grave accent pretty weird. Was it actually in the original or was it just a digitalization error or some accidental ink blot? I'm fine with the circumflex, though I guess a macron would be more standard. The & is just a scribal abbreviation, should we really keep it? Coming back to the grave accents, those in the other title look like log vowel marks, maybe they were meant as acute accents? After all, the Romans occasionally marked long vowels with something similar… the grave accents look really weird, I'd go for either acutes, circumflexes, or macrons. In any case, if no-one beats me to it, and if I remember, I will translate that title tomorrow. MGorrone (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Regarding the use of diacritics in the title of Speculum φιληματολογίας, as far as I can tell they are true diacritics and not merely digital artefacts or smudges. However, feel free to look at the original title page and see if I've made a mistake. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:58, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Sgconlaw I moved the diacritics and abbreviations matter to Latin Stack Exchange. Let's see what they think. Time to translate that title now. MGorrone (talk) 10:12, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
By the way, while looking at the cover of the now newly completely translated title Piæ Cantiones etc, I noticed whoever copied the title converged the "long s's" ſ into regular s's. If we want to keep things as in the original work, why not keep the ſ's too? MGorrone (talk) 10:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the translation! I usually preserve long esses for the quotation proper but not for the title and imprint information so it is easier to read the latter. However, now that you have highlighted the point, I can't say that it is a particularly good reason. — SGconlaw (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
What does it mean to "keep things as in the original work"? We're changing a lot of things in transcribing it, and the long s is a font feature that has not historically been copied in citations. It seems best to transcribe it as "s" instead of trying to preserve that typographically historical feature.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:03, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

稻草人: spelling of usage example, and meaning of 通 thereinEdit

I recently looked up 稻草人 here to find out what the first character meant, and I saw the usage example. Now in there, we have a "ná thang" spelt 那通. I have two questions about this:

1. Shouldn't "ná" be spelt 哪? After all, the translation makes it appear interrogative ("How can you …"), and that, AFAIK, suggests as the correct spelling, since this is interrogative while (the current spelling) is not. Also, 台湾闽南语常用词辞典 suggests 哪会 as a spelling of "ná ē", which AFAIK has the same interrogative "ná" in it. 2. The translation suggests (as the 台湾闽南语常用词辞典 confirms) that "thang" 通 means "can". However, said meaning is not present in the entry at . Shouldn't we add it? —This unsigned comment was added by MGorrone (talkcontribs).

Regarding 通, please feel free to add it yourself, of course. —suzukaze (tc) 23:03, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Regarding the first question, it's because that's what this uses. It's our best bet as to what the original orthography is. The orthography of quotations should not be changed to fit a particular standard. This is more of a "problem" for Taiwanese, since the MOE recommended characters are quite new and many people continue to ignore the recommendations. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:24, 13 October 2017 (UTC)


"An equal exchange" seems like a terrible definition. Can we improve this entry? DTLHS (talk) 00:42, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I've replaced the noun definition, using the verb as a model. SemperBlotto (talk) 04:58, 9 October 2017 (UTC)


"A member of the king's council." Which king? DTLHS (talk) 05:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

One of the long dead variety. The definition apparently derives from this text via Webster 1913, but Burrill only uses senator as a Latin word there. "A member of a privy council" may be a better definition, but I'm not sure that it is citable either. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


Are we not missing the common sense in advertising? ---> Tooironic (talk) 17:45, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

"(marketing) The output of copywriters, who are employed to write material which encourages consumers to buy goods or services."? DTLHS (talk) 18:35, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry I must have missed that. Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:40, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


I know we already discussed this. Isn't the example question "C’est la combientième fois que je t’ai dit ça ?" transformed from an assertion? (which I understand possible in French, and I attest in Spanish and Galician for all my teenagehood É a enésima vez que che digo que ordenes o teu cuarto / Es la enésima vez que te digo que ordenes tu habitación : "It's the **** time I tell you to tidy your room" < C(u)antas veces ch/te digo que... "How many times I've told you that..."). Then wouldn't it ("****") be able to be translated as umpteenth? (whath is mostly interrogative) Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 07:33, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's what it's getting at, but grammatically it's a rhetorical question parallel to the English "How many times have I told you to stop doing that?!" So combientième doesn't really mean "umpteenth" even though both terms can be used in exasperation. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


Is this layout for synonym correct? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 07:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Basically, except that #* rather than #: is used for quotations. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:44, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


Moved from WT:RE:ko

Moving missing sense requests from requested entries page. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:32, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
All added. Wyang (talk) 07:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Circles in the corners of characters in older Chinese textsEdit

like on 長 at s:Page:First Lessons in the Tie-chiw Dialect.pdf/41. I remember seeing these on 上 and maybe 好 too; do these indicate the different pronunciations/tones? Is it this what these Unicode characters are for? —suzukaze (tc) 05:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The circles are a variant of the ꜀/꜁ notations. Wyang (talk) 06:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: The link is broken. Could you fix it, please? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev: It should be better now. —suzukaze (tc) 18:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe this is getting into Wikisource policy territory, but is it worth transcribing them? On one hand it would be more accurate, but on the other hand font support is poor, people might not care, and I've skipped over such things countless times alreadyI'd have to find all the instances I ignored (which is probably not a simple task; if only there was a magic button to add them all for me) [22:01, 11 October 2017 (UTC)]... —suzukaze (tc) 18:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I would certainly transcribe them at Wikisource. Here at Wiktionary they might be worth a hard redirect. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

schedule, route, routerEdit

schedule, route can be pronounced both the American and the British way in Australia, especially the former. It seems some people are not clear about how to pronounce correctly route, As for router, I never heard /ˈɹuːtə/. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:04, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I've also never heard /ˈɹutɚ/ in Canada. In fact, I would pronounce it as [ˈɹaʊɾɚ] without Canadian raising for some reason. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:03, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Here's an example. I think she doesn't have Canadian raising in router, but she does in household. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
This and this do have Canadian raising most of the times the word appears. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

phrases of non-English origin are not translatable?Edit

How to figure out that they are equivalent?

Compare to lost soul. d1g (talk) 08:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

The Russian translation of the French phrase should be put in the French Wiktionary: wikt:fr:cousu de fil blanc. -- 08:48, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
It shouldn't only go there actually. It belongs here and there. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 10:32, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
In this particular case, since the Russian phrase is calqued on the French one, it can and should be found in a "descendants" section on the French entry (as is now the case). But that doesn't mean we should add a translation table for French words that are accurate translations of Russian words, just because there is no accurate English equivalent. --Barytonesis (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
They are idiomatic translations of each other and English has nothing to do about it.
But more about Russian calques French phrase.
There is no agreement not to use calques in translation tables. d1g (talk) 07:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think we're really disagreeing here. What I'm saying is this: there's no accurate English equivalent of dépaysement. But let's imagine there were an accurate Navajo equivalent (totally unrelated etymologically): well, too bad, we're not the place to provide that translation, and we're not going to add a translation table to the French entry for the translation in Navajo, or conversely.
The only reason why we're mentioning the Russian phrase шито белыми нитками on the French entry cousu de fil blanc is because it's etymologically related to it: i.e. it is calqued from it. But it is not a translation table. --Barytonesis (talk) 08:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis well I'm clueless what is wrong in "an accurate Navajo equivalent (totally unrelated etymologically): well, too bad, we're not the place to provide that translation"
On other hand we would place Navajo translations at French wiki? And this would be okay?..
Multiple wikis make things complex.
This is a serious complication, but what problem is solved by this, really?
For example English verb "drift" in racing now can be translated with slang "валить боком" (валит боком, etc).
Should I remove this translation just because they are irrelevant etymologically?..
This would throw away all neologisms and slang.
What is "translation" exactly then?.. d1g (talk) 09:14, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't make sense.
Translations of veni, vidi, vici
Should be at veni,_vidi,_vici#Latin
Not at I came, I saw, I conquered
Not at Latin wiki d1g (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
"It should" doesn't work here. It has been decided that translations only go to English entries to centralise the contents. It's a policy for a good reason. If there is no English equivalent then there are no translations. Derivations can go to the original language entry, as in abat-jour and in some cases English "translation target" entries are created, as in little brother. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
> If there is no English equivalent then there are no translations.
Exactly this make no sense at all.
All languages (language pairs) can avoid English entirely.
Many of French phrases and words were derived into Russian.
Same about other interactions.
English has nothing to do about it. d1g (talk) 13:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
This is an English dictionary for English speakers or learners. Translating cousu de fil blanc into Russian is out of scope. You should probably think more carefully about what it would mean to translate between all language pairs. DTLHS (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
veni, vidi, vici can't be an English phrase. Try to understand why it is so.
"translate between all language pairs"
I said from original language to others.
Efficiently it is the same thing as this 1
So paragraph "#Project_scope" doesn't make sense if we don't follow it. d1g (talk) 07:40, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
"This is an English dictionary for English speakers or learners"
Not only English dictionary.
veni,_vidi,_vici#Latin described using English
I see no problem to place translation at most appropriate place and not at I came, I saw, I conquered d1g (talk) 08:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

rinse and repeatEdit

This links to lather, rinse, repeat, which, while meaning the same thing, is just a variant of the phrase rinse and repeat. The latter should be a page in its own right, not a redirect page.

relation between агнец agnus?Edit


I don't understand why it is only Old East Slavic and not Latin borrowing.

Compare to agnello in Italian. d1g (talk) 14:19, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

It's unlikely to be a Latin borrowing for both linguistic reasons (the diminutive -ец suffix is pure Slavic and is unrelated to the Latin ending -us) and sociological reasons (both Russian and Bulgarian fall into the Eastern Orthodox sphere of influence, so borrowing words related to Christianity is expected from Greek but not from Latin). Still, the words are related, since Proto-Slavic *agnę and agnus come from the same source, Proto-Indo-European *h₂egʷnós. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I have no idea how to reflect relation to Proto-Indo-European correctly.
Maybe russian "агнец" should refer to агнѧ? d1g (talk) 15:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Everything is fine, link to PIE is here agnę (agnьcь) present at агнец. d1g (talk) 17:16, 12 October 2017 (UTC)


Is sideburn a back-formation? --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

It's actually an anagram of burnside, named after General Burnside, who was famous for them. DonnanZ (talk) 09:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
But the singular probably is a back-formation from the plural. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


I'm not sure the recent changes to that entry are an improvement. --Barytonesis (talk) 19:56, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I cleaned it up. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:53, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. --Barytonesis (talk) 07:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Category:Russian words by interfixEdit

@Atitarev, Benwing2 A lot of these should just be suffixes. —Rua (mew) 21:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on this and USer:Benwing2 has been very unavailable, even via email. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Template:affix template should get update to name suffixes as suffixes and not as "interfix". d1g (talk) 07:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
E.g. Russian language uses only 2-10 interfixes, rest are suffixes and compound suffixes (or even parts of compound words like -строительный). d1g (talk) 07:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
{{affix}} determines whether something is a suffix by looking at where the hyphens are. A term with hyphens on both ends is considered an interfix. —Rua (mew) 12:39, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Well in current setup "-тельн" is less ugly than "-тельн-"
-SUFFIX is possible just as -SUFFIX-
Ideally they should get individual symbols. d1g (talk) 13:06, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Suffixes are lemmatised the same way as the part of speech they form. Since adjectives are lemmatised to the nominative singular masculine in Russian, a suffix that creates adjectives is lemmatised that way too. So it should be -тельный (-telʹnyj). —Rua (mew) 14:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It is not correct to claim "-тельный" as Russian suffix, because it is a suffix and n-sg-m ending.
It is useful to have -тельный and -строительный, but it is wrong to call them as "suffixes".
No linguist or morphological dictionary would call them "suffixes"... d1g (talk) 15:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
That's nice, but it is how it's done on Wiktionary, for all languages. —Rua (mew) 15:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
That's why wiktionary is a useless resource about actual morphology.
It pretends to explain word formation, doesn't succeed.
I presents readers with wrong information like -строительный as suffix
Disaster, not less. d1g (talk) 15:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I sort of agree with you, and think we could do a better job of distinguishing derivational suffixes from inflectional suffixes, but this is hardly the way to convince people. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Honestly I don't think any words will help with @Rua
Everything is said at Suffix d1g (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2017 (UTC)


Does this citation qualify as Modern English? It's barely understandable. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:33, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I think Chaucer wrote in Middle English, so no? —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 15:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Right; Chaucer can be used to cite Middle English, not Modern. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:55, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora, Angr: what do you think of this? I've chosen the uppercase Sol, and translated it by "Sun", not "gold". --Barytonesis (talk) 21:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: Seems good to me (not that I know much of Middle English). It also means "gold" apparently, as a lowercase common noun. Entry in the Middle English Dictionary. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:12, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis Based on the surrounding context, it definitely seems to mean ‘gold’ there, and not ‘sun’, although it’s a mention, not a use. AFAICT the Middle English means more or less this: “‘Sol’ is gold, and we term silver ‘Luna’, iron ‘Mars’, we call quicksilver ‘Mercury’, lead ‘Saturn’, and ‘Jupiter’ is tin, and ‘Venus’ copper, by my father’s kin!” The passage is in the middle of a list of alchemical substances. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 01:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Vorziblix: mh, I don't know now... I see it simply as the names of celestial bodies that are metaphorically assimilated to a specific metal; that doesn't mean they've become anything other than the names of celestial bodies. mercury has really "taken off" though, since it even replaced quicksilver; and saturn sort of as well, since we speak of saturnism. --Barytonesis (talk) 08:18, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: In alchemical works you can find them commonly used in place of the names of the metals, with no apparent celestial reference, and even simply named as metals; it seems to have gone beyond metaphor. By way of example, some quotes, although more recent than Chaucer:
  • 1688, Franciscus Mercurius van Helmont, trans. Chr. Packe, Some Phylosophic Rules or Cannons, Concerning the Stone of Phylosophers:
    Luna cannot be transmuted into Sol, except it return into running Mercury (but by the physical Tincture) the same is to be judged of the other Metals. ... Sol ought to be put to Mercury, that he may be dissolved into Sulphur, and then cocted into the stone of Phylosophers.
  • 1611, attributed to Arnoldus de Nova Villa, A Chymicall treatise of the Ancient and highly illuminated Philosopher, Devine and Physitian, Arnoldus de Nova Villa who lived 400 years agoe, never seene in print before, but now by a Lover of the Spagyrick art made publick for the use of Learners, printed in the year 1611:
    The common Sulphur is found in Sol and Luna, in Mercury more fugitive, in the body water.
  • 1688, Franciscus Mercurius van Helmont, trans. Chr. Packe, One Hundred Fifty Three Chymical Aphorisms:
    And Gold, as hath already been said, ought to be more perfectly Tinged by the Mercury of Phylosophers. This Mercury cannot be had of Antimony alone; But by it, as a Medium, from other imperfect Metallick Bodies, which abound with the Tincture of Gold; Of which sort there are found only two, to wit, Mars and Venus... Antimony, Mars and Venus, consist of Sulphur and Mercury.
  • c. 1480, George Ripley, The Mistery of Alchymists:
    When our Medicine thou wilt assay,
    Thou maist make both Sol and Lune,
    In lesse space then in one day.
Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 09:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

mess at упоительныйEdit

contributors: @Benwing, Rua

I'm dead serious this word is from упое́ние (upojénije).

Both can quit project if don't have sources for ety. d1g (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

That's not a very wiki-like atitude. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora indeed, it isn't friendly to revert without any meaningful discussion.
It is just asocial, so I created a topic here to settle all questions.
Problem is that any idiot can open RG-80 and see "упоение".
@Atitarev is not an authoritative source of Russian morphology. d1g (talk) 03:02, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
упое́ние (upojénije) is only a related word. Morphologically, it's упои́ть (upoítʹ) + -тельный (-telʹnyj). @D1gggg, you're just not good at this, you should just leave the grammar and etymologies alone and I am dead serious about it. Also, there is no point making multiple similar topics.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Sources for ety?
Imagination of Atitarev? d1g (talk) 03:09, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
While the suffix part can still be argued - inflectional suffix -тельный (-telʹnyj) vs suffix -тельн- (-telʹn-) + ending -ый (-yj), you can't be "dead serious" about упои́тельный (upoítelʹnyj) being derived directly from упое́ние (upojénije), which itself has a suffix -ние (-nije). The full decomposition of the word is у- (u-) + -пои́- (-poí-) (the stem of [{m|ru|пои́ть}}, which we shouldn't lemmatise) + -тельный (-telʹnyj). The suffix -тельный (-telʹnyj) is a choice, lemmatised in it masculine nominative singular form. Of course, it can further decomposed into -тельн- (-telʹn-) + -ый (-yj). The source is Большой современный толковый словарь русского языка. 2006, Ефремова Т.Ф. Courtesy of User:Vahagn Petrosyan in Talk:умопомрачительный. I am OK to continue using the long form of the suffix, even if the Russian Wiktionary lemmatises -тельн- (-telʹn-). There is no point, just like there is no point to have entries for verb stems like -пои́- (-poí-). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I recognize work by "Ефремова, Татьяна Фёдоровна", but I also have to add that this person never worked at any of RG editions. This makes my life hard from time to time.
First, en.wiktionary seems correct in:
"упоение" = "упо(ить)" + "ение" (further analysis of -ение is possible, -ие is just ending)
Then we have:
"упоительный" = "упо(ить)" + "-ительный" (or whatever you want to do with -ый)
It makes perfect sense why "и" is in suffix when "упоение" is used as base word
Do I forgot some rule how words can be derived? d1g (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't see big difference between trimmed "упоить" and trimmed "упоение" if resulting word is the same. d1g (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Analysis not by makes assumption about поить as root
I see some relation between "упой" "упоение" but cannot explain every translation d1g (talk) 21:13, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
This is crazy, but also say "до упоя" and "с упоя" and this is shorter that "поить" d1g (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
This is crazy, what is root here: "с перепоя"? d1g (talk) 22:02, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
-пои́- is indeed useless and unrecognized by anyone d1g (talk) 20:49, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

mess at -строительныйEdit

I wounder if @Rua able to provide a single source for "-строительный" as "prefix" d1g (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

You created the entry. —Rua (mew) 17:52, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it wasn't a suffix.
Try to read a single book about Russian before you make edits. d1g (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Try to learn the definition of suffix before you claim that things aren't suffixes. Both this and -ный (-nyj) are clearly suffixes. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Find a book where -ный claimed as suffix/prefix/affix. d1g (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Find a book where -строительный claimed as suffix/prefix/affix. d1g (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Find a book where a bound morpheme that's attached to the end of a root to form a new word is described as anything else besides a suffix. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:03, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Angr try to answer without questions or learn German or Russian. It will help.
Real name for this thing is "inflectional suffix" or ending. d1g (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
You know why they're called inflectional suffixes? Because they're suffixes. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:56, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This is strange motivation to use ambiguous words over unambiguous words. d1g (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

there beEdit

I don't think that "sum" is the proper Latin translation for 'there be. "Sum" specifically means 'I am'. Latin uses the verb "esse", to be, to express 'there is'. "Tres pueri sunt", There are three boys. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 18:42, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

The lemma for Latin verbs is the first-person singular present active indicative. So sum stands in for the whole verb. —Rua (mew) 18:44, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

mess at любознательныйEdit


  • removed -о- interfix
  • "Russian words suffixed with -тельный" is less precise than "Russian words suffixed with -тельн"

As if this person not trying to penetrate information given to them in Wiktionary:Tea_room/2017/October#Category:Russian_words_by_interfix by several users. d1g (talk) 19:02, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Can @Rua discuss their changes?
edit 23:33, 13 10 2017
PS. I doubt this person is able to discuss anything (and above) d1g (talk) 02:35, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Removed interfix -о- is just insane:
from люби́ть and лю́бят:
so common part can be only "люб"
next letter is "о" and next thing is also root, so it must be interfix between two roots
RG-80 says both are verbs, so no need to worry about POS
This isn't some random letter "о" inserted here by magic as "любо" d1g (talk) 03:24, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Similar edit at speedometer reverted by @Aryamanarora.

At least one user here has sense of what interfix is.

No luck with @Rua, Benwing. d1g (talk) 09:55, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Leave me out of your feud. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 11:14, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus to remove Russian interfixes. @Rua explain how removal of interfix is helpful to anyone. d1g (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

mess at -тельнEdit

Creation lock from @Rua...

It is a proper Russian suffix.

I don't understand edits from this user at all. d1g (talk) 04:42, 14 October 2017 (UTC)


In my experience, this term typically applies to English speakers who live abroad, and not foreigners. For example, we would call Chinese people living in Australia migrants or immigrants, and rarely expats. Should we add a usage note to that effect? ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:12, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I thought there is a difference between the two- (im)migrants have the intent of permanent settlement in the new place, where expats refer to anyone living outside their native country. Is this correct, or is this a stereotype-influenced impression? Wyang (talk) 06:26, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
For me (as an American expat living in Germany), there's considerable denotational overlap between the two terms, but their connotations are rather different. The word immigrant connotes a person from a relatively poor country who's moved to a wealthier country to make a better life for him- or herself (or perhaps to escape persecution, in which case there is again overlap with refugee), while expat connotes a person from a relatively wealthy country (not necessarily an English speaker, though) who's moved to another country (regardless of its wealth) to live and work either temporarily or long-term. (For example, Germans living in Spain are expats even though they aren't English speakers.) Technically I meet Wyang's definition of immigrant, because I have no intention of living in the U.S. again, but I would rarely use that word to describe myself, because my home country is quite affluent, and although I did come to Germany for a job, I never felt like I had to leave the U.S. in order to find a job. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't really agree with your definitions. In my experience as an Indian permanently living in the United States, Indians who live abroad can and are often called expats or immigrants (usually though they're called NRIs, for "Non-Resident Indian"), and I'm sure you know India is not a wealthy country. Furthermore, I really don't think immigrant and refugee overlap. I do agree with Wyang though, IMO immigrant usually means permanent settlement outside of one's country, while expat means anyone living abroad. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:40, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I contend that there absolutely denotational distinction based on the person's plans to stay: an "expat" is staying long-term but intends to return (usually at a predetermined time, like study abroad), whereas an "immigrant" has moved with the desire/intent to potentially stay permanently. I would further contend that a migrant is moving solely to find (usually temporary) work.

So megahertz translates to γιγαχέρτζ?Edit

I just opened megahertz to see a Greek translation (I'm answering this Quora question and the other answer says μεγαρτος means megahertz, so I wanted to see if Wiktionary confirmed it), and I got γιγαχέρτζ. Reaction: um, what? You serious? Let's check this out! Loading γιγαχέρτζ, and of course it means gigahertz. So is the translation at megahertz wrong or can γιγαχέρτζ very ambiguously mean both? And if the former, is the correct translation μεγαχέρτζ as I would guess? Time to create that entry then! MGorrone (talk) 10:41, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

You're right. [2] --Barytonesis (talk) 10:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Just created μεγαχέρτζ. MGorrone (talk) 11:09, 14 October 2017 (UTC)


The template "&lit" generates this wording:

Used other than a figurative or idiomatic meaning.

Is it just me or is this incorrect English? Can something be used "other than a meaning"? Mihia (talk) 12:48, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it should be "used other than with...", but that sounds a bit clunky. Perhaps a complete rephrasing would be better. Equinox 12:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It once read "Used other than as an idiom".
It now reads as Equinox suggested, pending reversion to the earlier wording or another revision. DCDuring (talk) 13:30, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

make a case forEdit

Can I create an entry for that? --2A02:2788:A4:F44:EC8B:A545:AD92:AE89 13:07, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

IMO, you could make a case for creating it. DCDuring (talk) 13:17, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
But see make a case at OneLook Dictionary Search, which suggests that many other references don't find it a good case. DCDuring (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Can I create an entry for my old clarinet? I believe I could make a case for that. Mihia (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


B&T shows there to be an English fornim, but I can't find any quotes in Google Books so I've left it out of the descendants. A quote would be much helpful to prove the existence of fornim. Anglish4699 (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

*if there even is a quote. Anglish4699 (talk) 18:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Google Books is one of the best resources we have that is available for citing, but it's not infallible nor all encompassing. But it's very adequate, because not only we can access it, but Wiktionary users can as well, and they can cross check the citations for reference :). That said, we used to have an English entry for fornim, but it was removed (i.e. moved to Middle English fornimen) because satisfactory English citations couldn't be found. Leasnam (talk) 19:06, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


At some point in the past, somebody was obsessed with the word "blee" (I think it's some sort of Anglo-Saxon alternate-universe version of "colour") and added it to all the "colour" entries in a matter-of-fact way, without appropriately glossing it as a weird word that NO HUMAN EVER USES. I have removed it when I see it. I now want to challenge Citations:blee, which is some kind of weird poetry(?) that talks about "stale poppy-cods blummered in blee / From the willy-wad over the way". What is "blummered"? We have no entry. Why should we trust this weird text to support "blee", especially when that word has a history of agenda-pushing on this project? Equinox 07:48, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if I trust Citations:blee. It might be there just to go with the rhyme like "rattatattoo," though I don't know for sure. Indeed a better citation should be found. About the "Synonym: ..." sections, they look a little ugly. There are WAY too many of them. A smaller synonym section would be better. Anglish4699 (talk) 00:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that the word blee as a whole is not attestable? What about the other quotations on the main entry page? I moved the poetic quotation to the citations page as it wasn't clear what sense the word blee was being used in – in fact, I think it was just a nonce word there. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


If boner is a noun, how horny (adj.) can be a synonym? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 07:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

It's not. Where do you see that it is? The entries don't link to each other. Ultimateria (talk) 08:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: Sorry, my mistake: if hard-on is a noun, how horny (adj.) can be a synonym? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 07:57, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Fixed. Thanks for bringing it up. Ultimateria (talk) 08:03, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
My pleasure being useful. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 22:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)


Can a good lexicographer do something about these definitions? I find them really lacking and I need glosses for other languages. Ultimateria (talk) 08:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

king cobraEdit

In this phrase, which word is the nucleus? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:36, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

"Cobra", unless you're differentiating between types of cobras. Ultimateria (talk) 08:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Bottle of DogEdit

Bottle of Dog is a Geordie synonym for (a bottle of) Newcastle Brown Ale. I've added a definition to Dog as a (sourced) synonym for Newcastle Brown Ale. It looks to me as though that makes Bottle of Dog redundant as SOP, yes? -Stelio (talk) 15:48, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Is Dog attestable in other collocations? DCDuring (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
In my experience, yes. In particular, it's derivative from the phrase "taking the dog for a walk" such that to "walk the dog" means to drink Newcastle Brown Ale. Here are some examples from websites... -Stelio (talk) 09:51, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  • 2008-01-25, Chronicle Live: The brewery’s most famous brand is Newcastle Brown Ale, or "Dog".
  • 2011-04-04, Beverage Industry: Tied to a tradition in the United Kingdom, Newcastle Brown Ale is asking beer drinkers to “Walk the Dog,” which is a British euphemism for visiting a bar. Newcastle is offering “Walk the Dog” tasting events in select on-premise venues in various cities around the nation. While visiting their favorite establishments, curious “Dog Walkers” will be greeted by Newcastle brand ambassadors who will expound on the virtues of “Walking the Dog,” while offering samples of Newcastle Brown Ale.
  • 2013-06-18, Facebook (The One and Only - Newcastle Brown Ale): It's only Tuesday but who needs a Dog?
  • 2015-02-06, Telegraph: The ale was also dubbed "dog" by drinkers, as they would make the excuse of going to "walk the dog" when nipping out for a sneaky drink.
  • 2015-02-07, BBC News: The beer is one of the best selling in the United States, where, as in the UK, it is also nicknamed "Dog".
  • 2016, Tesco: Did yee knar... ...NewCastle Brown Ale is affectionately known as 'Dog' by those in the know. "I'm gannin' to see* a man about a Dog" and "I'm taking the Dog for a walk" were often used by Geordie men as an excuse for visiting their local to sample their beloved tipple.
  • 2016-03-28, Drinking got me thinking...: I usually went for a bottle of Dog. Dog being Brown Ale. Why Dog? It’s called Dog as a reference to someone telling his wife that he was going to walk the dog and nipping to the pub for a pint instead, it’s a real old fashioned Geordie flat cap and whippet image isn’t it. This was part of an old advertising campaign for the beer and the reference has stuck ever since.
  • 2017-02, Beer Advocate: “The Dog,” as it’s popularly known in its home, is one of Britain’s last old-school Brown Ales. But at the same time, it’s very atypical.

Cross-linking to RFD discussion. -Stelio (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

go toEdit

"He went to the University of Kansas for almost two years before he dropped out." Is this American English? I don't know if we say this in Australia. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:30, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's used in the US. It's used in Canada as well, but I thought it'd be more widespread. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
We always say it in the US. It's not even a low-register term. Ultimateria (talk) 08:22, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It never occurred to me that there would be varieties of English that didn't say this. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
That phrasing is perfectly fine in British English too. What would you say in Australia instead? -Stelio (talk) 10:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Not sure. I guess we might say that. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I think it is fairly common in Australian English: google:"went+to+Sydney+Uni", google:"went+to+Melbourne+Uni", google:"went+to+ANU". Wyang (talk) 11:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, we say this in Australian English. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 20:56, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

skepsis in Ancient GreekEdit

I have come across this in both Den Danske Ordbog and Duden for skepsis and Skepsis (scepticism) respectively. At the moment σκεπτικός (skeptikós) is given for both scepticism and sceptic. Is there an entry anywhere for this? DonnanZ (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Also listed under Origin at “sceptic” (US) / “sceptic” (UK) in Oxford Dictionaries, Oxford University Press.. DonnanZ (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. There is an Ancient Greek word σκέψις (sképsis, examination, observation, consideration). It doesn't actually mean "skepticism", just as σκεπτικός (skeptikós) doesn't actually mean "skeptical". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
There's also σκῆψις (skêpsis, pretext), but that's unrelated to these words. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Sense 3 shows "doubt, hesitation" for σκέψις (sképsis). That could be it. DonnanZ (talk) 19:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

take the helmEdit

Could I create that? @Mihia --2A02:2788:A4:F44:448:929:A14:5B56 08:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

to canvass - to fish for complimentsEdit

Are these two words synonymous? --2A02:2788:A4:F44:448:929:A14:5B56 08:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

IMHO, no, but canvass could be used to metaphorically solicit compliments, but presumably only from multiple potential sources of compliments, to make the metaphorical meaning close to the basic ones.
The meanings of this word have migrated pretty far from "To toss on a sheet of canvas". For now, "fish for compliments" may be off the reservation.
Metaphorical idioms, like fish for compliments, are not good for definitions, even when synonymous.
Perhaps fish for compliments is a hyponym of one of the existing definitions. Or perhaps it could be under a "See also" header. DCDuring (talk) 13:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Transitivity of borkEdit

Could someone please have a look at bork (etymology 2)? I had a bit of trouble deciding whether it is transitive, intransitive or both, and may have borked the entry somewhat. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Can you find citations for the infinitive / forms that aren't borked? Many of your citations could be construed as adjectives. DTLHS (talk) 18:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I see, borked in "the computer is borked" is an adjective rather than an intransitive verb? Could you help move the quotations using the word as an adjective to borked? I'm struggling a little to identify them. It's surprisingly hard to find citations for the word; I'll try again tomorrow. Also, is bork (etymology 1) transitive or intransitive? It seems to be both. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:20, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thinking about it more, I would say there is no support for an intransitive sense. "Bork/borks/borking/borked itself" doesn't get any hits. DTLHS (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Isn't the etymology 1, 2004 quotation an intransitive use? Also, the 2006 ("was borked") and 2008 ("is being borked") quotations? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:59, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

can't talkEdit

The expression "You can't talk" means "You are guilty of the same thing that you are accusing others of". The entry for talk has a definition "To criticize someone for something of which one is guilty oneself", but does this fit "You can't talk"? If it does, what is the explanation of "can't"? If it doesn't, what does "talk" actually mean in the expression? Mihia (talk) 19:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC) .... It just occurred to me that, even more confusingly, "You can talk" means the same ...

I don't know if I've ever head either "You can't talk" or "You can talk" used this way. The usual expression in my experience is "You're one to talk". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:31, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Where are you from? Mihia (talk) 21:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Texas. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:D75:DF3:C5B4:2D49 10:01, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe these are BrE only then. To me here in the UK, "You can't talk!", "You can talk!" and "You're one to talk!" are all familiar expressions. Mihia (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
"You can talk!" is by far the usual form in the UK. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:25, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Tangentially, the definition as currently stated has some ambiguity in it: the use of "one" may allow the definition to be read as though the speaker is guilty (which may be true, but it not necessarily true). Person A: "He's a lazy arse." Person B: "You can talk!" Perhaps replace "of which one is guilty oneself" with "of which they are guilty themselves" (enforcing the third person)? -Stelio (talk) 11:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC) Ignore this. I wasn't thinking clearly. ;-) -Stelio (talk) 11:17, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Literal translation is used also in ES/GL and I assume PT too. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 22:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)


@Aearthrise, Algentem, Lingo Bingo Dingo: Does this Coptic word really mean ‘gate’ as claimed? It’s a loan from Ancient Greek προβατικός (probatikós, of or relating to sheep). The connection to ‘gate’ apparently comes from a biblical passage, John 5:2. It looks like the Coptic translator just transcribed the Greek word directly here, so if this is the only attestation I doubt we can make any conclusions beyond what the original Greek word implies. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 22:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

προβατικός in Liddell & Scott (1940) A Greek–English Lexicon, Oxford: Clarendon Press has this: προβατικὴ [πύλη], the sheep gate. --Barytonesis (talk) 09:53, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Its use is as a nominalised adjective: "προβατικὴ πύλη" (dative following ἐπὶ) for "sheep gate", dropping to "προβατικὴ" for "sheep gate". But saying "προβατικὴ" means just "gate" is pushing one step too far (keep the sheep!). Here is a photo of John 5.2 in the original Greek (left) and a 1925 translation into then-Modern Greek (Katharevousa, before the 1976 shift to Demotic Greek); note the "[πύλης]" in the modern translation. -Stelio (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
It is a proper noun, referring to the "Sheep Gate" in Jerusalem, so I have changed the part of speech and the definition. The etymology should probably also reflect the form προβατική used in John. This transcription is also used in at least one Sahidic version. It is notable that both dialects have borrowed it as a feminine proper noun. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
@Algentem, Barytonesis, Lingo Bingo Dingo, Stelio, VorziblixThe Bohairic Bible translates ⲡⲣⲟⲃⲁⲧⲓⲕⲏ as 'Sheep Gate'; the ⲡⲣⲟⲃⲁⲧⲓⲕⲏ noun entry must be changed to 'Sheep Gate'.
(Ⲁⲉⲁⲣⲑⲣⲓⲥⲉ) 11:52, 19 October 2017‎(UTC)

Thanks all! The entry’s looking much better now. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)


Says the sense of "attendant, usually an expert swimmer, employed to save swimmers in trouble or near drowning at a body of water" is "Chiefly US". Is that true? If so, what are lifeguards called in other English-speaking countries?

In British English, a lifeguard. Here is an example. -Stelio (talk) 13:27, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
They would be called surf lifesavers in Australia if they were at a beach, but still lifeguard for pools. Other dictionaries note the sense originated in the US rather than being chiefly restricted to it. Pengo (talk) 01:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
"lifeguard" is standard in (modern) BrE, as far as I know. As a BrE speaker, I wouldn't even have known that it was originally US, if indeed that is the case. 03:09, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of Swedish word slutEdit

I was curious about the etymology of the Swedish word slut. It's not on the Wiktionary page, and its English homonym dominates web search results even if I include "Swedish" in the search terms.

Can any Swedish speakers help?

Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Vox Sciurorum: I'm not a Swedish speaker, but there's no doubt in my mind it's from the same origin as German Schluss, which has the same meanings. Schluss is from the same root as schließen (to close), which is from Proto-Germanic *sleutaną. That page lists a related term *slutą, which I suppose is the source of both the German and the Swedish words. However, since *sleutaną appears to be only a West Germanic word, I suspect that Swedish slut is not inherited from Proto-Germanic via Old Norse, but rather a loanword into Swedish from Low German. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually it occurs to me that *slutą is more likely to be the source of German Schloss, not Schluss. But the rest of what I said still applies: *sleutaną seems to be only a West Germanic word, so Swedish slut is probably a loanword from Low German. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC)


Until May, the word Na'vi was a nonexistent entry in Wiktionary. Then in last May, it was deleted altogether. Most of the citations referred explicitly to Avatar, and therefore did not pass FICTION.

However, searching through Usenet I can find several hits for the word "Na'vi" that do not mention Avatar. Not for the Na'vi species themselves, but for the constructed language Na'vi:!topic/lojban/IpZvYjdsW8c%5B1-25%5D

"I don't know what the figures are for Lojban (nor how they might be arrived at) but, at the moment, at least Klingon, Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona that I know of claim followings in the hundreds (again, I have no idea where the numbers come from)."!search/na$27vi$20%22toki$20pona%22/lojban/Qzd-7EO4W14/dU9_5PosQF8J

"And maybe we could take some words from Toki Pona and Na'vi too! Let's take all their words! One conlang to rule them all, le'avla!"!search/na$27vi$20%22toki$20pona%22/gjax-zym-byn/prI7Y-bLNWE/je60Z_2kWcUJ

"At the moment I can only think of four conlang creators paid specifically to create a conlang- Dothraki, Klingon, Na'vi and someone got af few thousand to write a language for a video game whose name I can't remember."!search/na$27vi$20conlang/alt.usage.english/BT3K9p53zcE/HejCtVVDQtQJ

"Lots of people will be willing to learn Na'vi, and if Dnghe was proposed as a conlang and not as an auxlang, people would be quite happy to adopt it. Its problem is that it is marketed as an auxlang."!search/na$27vi$20conlang/word-tasting-notes/SCmB93njys0/hukqWIqqCAAJ

"Tolkien is famous for creating languages for his different races. He’s not the only person to create languages, of course; Klingon and Na’vi are two recent examples of thoroughly created “conlangs,” constructed languages (I find the term conlang a bit fanboyish – sci-fi fans have an absolute fetish for syllable acronyms – so don’t count on seeing me use it much)."

Could these be used as citations? Khemehekis (talk) 02:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure all those would count, but it hardly matters — google books:"Na'vi" conlang shows that there are more than enough cites for the language sense to recreate the entry, which I have done. (The deletion summary claims that it failed RFV, but the debate was evidently not archived on the talk-page.) As for the term referring to the people, I think finding cites that pass WT:FICTION will be harder, although by no means impossible. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:33, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Hey, your entry looks great! And I see that now we have some new categories that need to be created. Khemehekis (talk) 06:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

crew neckEdit

This entry has an adjective and a noun sense, but the wording in the definitions doesn't necessarily match. I know nothing about clothes, so am skipping it. --P5Nd2 (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)


At the entry for flagship it insists that flagship is not an adjective, although it looks like one. I'm a call a spade a spade type, and I disagree. All online dictionaries agree with our entry, though. Why on earth could there not be an adjective definition here? --P5Nd2 (talk) 08:47, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@P5Nd2: [3] --Barytonesis (talk) 08:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
That's just the attributive use of the noun. The OED has " b. attrib. or as adj. Representing the leading product, etc., in a range; specially promoted." in its noun entry. SemperBlotto (talk) 04:57, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

burnt outEdit

Does one not say this? ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes. This should be a straightforward addition, in the same vein as burned out. Compare burnt and burned. -Stelio (talk) 09:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and created the entry. -Stelio (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)


Can this also mean 'to let someone know; to inform', e.g.: 연락처 좀 알려 주세요, "Please let me know your contact information." ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

The verb in the sentence, 알려 (allyeo), is 알리— (alli-, “to make someone know; to let someone know”) in its infinitive. The infinitive of verbs combines with 주세요 (juseyo), the informal polite declarative honorific of 주— (ju-, “to do something for someone”), to form the Korean equivalent of “please + verb” (when requesting a favour). 알리— (alli-) is the causative of 알— (al-, “to know”), and 알려지— (allyeoji-, “to be made known; to be found out”) is (derived from) the passive of 알리— (alli-, “to make someone know”), thus the causative passive of 알— (al-, “to know”). Wyang (talk) 14:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
The Korean 주다 (juda) in this usage is an equivalent of the Japanese  (くだ)さる (kudasaru). I don't know if there are other languages that work similarly. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:34, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Usage example at tungEdit

Just tried my best at translating the usage example at tung#Middle_English. I am fairly confident of the first part, save for that "bieð", but the second part? I'm not at all sure about it. Someone to check? Also, I had the impression this is more like Old English, but that may be just me having seen only Chaucer as an example of Middle English (well, besides Middle English Wikipedia, one of whose article had a discussion going on about whether it was Old or Middle, but that was way more "Old-looking" than that example). MGorrone (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@MGorrone: I believe alswa here means as, and cann is the ancestor of ken (to know) rather than can. I’d render it something like “He who is God’s wisdom, through whom all wits and all wisdoms and all speaking tongues come, he lay as the child that knows no good and can’t speak” — referring, I suppose, to Christ being incarnated as a human child. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
All right, I’ve done my best to fix it up (and format it). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 00:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

homity pieEdit

Is this actually a "traditional British dish"? It seems to have been invented sometime in the latter half of the 20th century. DTLHS (talk) 02:19, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

My part-time-food-historian wife placed it as coming from Devon (which happily matches the Wikipedia page), but couldn't date it. That means it doesn't occur in her historical reference works, and so is indeed likely to be recent (again, as per Wikipedia). -Stelio (talk) 08:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC)


A classic Shakespearian insult is "rump-fed ronyon". I see little about this on the Web; most of what I do see suggests that it means "fat-rumped" from overeating. This is supported by an 1830s German commentary. [4]

However, I don't believe it. Shakespeare's insults tend to focus on poverty, and I have a hard time believing that a fat rump would even classify as an insult. A runyon is a mangy (scabbed) creature. I believe the real explanation is to be found here: "Some fighting to establish teat order continues during the first week of life and the smaller, weaker pigs may be forced to nurse the less productive rear teats. This further reduces their chances for survival." I think that Shakespeare's viewers were in a position to understand this easily.

Is there a chance to get a definition set up for this ... and if so, is there a way to sneak in the right definition? Wnt (talk) 08:04, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

curly apostrophe ( ’ ) vs. printer's apostrophe ( ' ) in FinnishEdit

In the Finnish orthography an apostrophe is used between two same vowels (e.g. tiu’ut) if the vowels belong to two different syllables, or to indicate omission as in yht’äkkiä. By the rule it is precisely the curly apostrophe and not the printer's apostrophe.

However, in the English Wiktionary the printer's (also typewriter -, straight -) apostrophe seems to be used as standard. I was in the process of substituting curly apostrophe for the printer's apostrophe in the Finnish entries of the English Wiktionary when I found myself in disagreement with the user @Angr who thinks that printer's apostrophe should be used as standard.

I have these arguments to support my opinion:

  1. Here is a link to a very good source for correct Finnish[5]. Unfortunately it's written in Finnish. In it one can find this statement: "Merkki ' ei kuulu suomen kielen normaaliin kirjoitusjärjestelmään, joskin sitä merkistön rajoittuneisuuden vuoksi voidaan joutua käyttämään heittomerkin korvikkeena". When I drop this sentence to Google Translate I get this: "The character ' does not belong to the normal language system of Finnish, although it may have to be used as a substitute for a punctuation mark because of the limitation of the character set". GT translates kirjoitusjärjestelmä (writing system) and heittomerkki (curly apostrophe) erroneously to "language system" and "punctuation mark" respectively, but otherwise the translation is good.
  2. Lemming principle: MS Word Finnish language version, the Finnish Wiktionary and Finnish newspapers and book printers use the curly apostrophe.

Angr backs his case with the following:

  1. It is Wiktionary's in-house style to use the straight apostrophe.
  2. Curly apostrophe and straight apostrophe are functionally equivalent in all languages.
  3. We have entries for don't, j'ai, Türkiye'yi, δ’ (d’), and so on, and many such entries have hard redirects from the spellings with the curly apostrophe. I don't see any reason to treat Finnish differently.

While I understand the strive for standardization, I don't think Wiktionary standards should overrule language-specific otrhographic standards where they exist. I agree on the functional equivalence, but we use all sorts of language-specific signs.

We agreed to bring the issue to the Beer Parlor in order to let the community decide which way we choose. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I would prefer the whole of Wiktionary to use proper curly apostrophes (unless definitely inappropriate in a particular language). They look more polished and professional. Of course, I understand that they can be a nuisance to type. Mihia (talk) 19:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I would prefer curlies, if used at all, to be applied in some mechanical way at display time, without affecting the underlying markup. I don't know if that's unambiguously possible across all languages. Equinox 19:56, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that some kind of automation in the website software, however it works, would be desirable. Mihia (talk) 20:19, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I think curly apostrophes should always be used in text. But that is separate from what should be in titles. Titles should use one or the other, and straight apostrophes are already used in entry titles of many languages that prefer curly apostrophes in text (see Angr's list above), so it would be the least confusing to use them in Finnish as well. That does mean that we need 1. redirects from curly to straight and 2. entry-name replacements that replace curly with straight (so that one can type curly into {{l}} or {{m}} and their sisters and automatically link to the correct entry). — Eru·tuon 21:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Aside from any technical issues, which in theory should be fixable given resources, why would we want to use a different style in titles than in text? Mihia (talk) 22:07, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't know. My personal technical reason is that Windows doesn't let me easily type a curly apostrophe. So if I were creating a new entry for a term with an apostrophe, I'd have to look up the curly apostrophe online to type it into the address bar, or find the alt-code (apparently Alt + 145). I doubt that is going to be fixed. Hmm, never mind: actually you can type the HTML entity &rsquo; into the address bar and get to the correct entry. Nifty. — Eru·tuon 23:59, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I'm fine with us using curly apostrophes in entry titles, but then we should use them for all languages that use apostrophes. As long as hard redirects are in place in both directions, and as long as we have a single style that applies to all languages, either option is fine with me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Are the redirects really necessary? At least my browser treats curly and straight apostrophe as equal recognizing the difference only when there's an entry for each alternative. For example we have now an entry for "liu’un" (curly) but a search for "liu'un" (straight) leads me to the "curly" page. Opposite direction may be tested with "tiu'un" (straight). Another test case is "don't" which exists in both curly and straight version. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Assuming you're typing into the Wiktionary search box, I wouldn't have thought the search behaviour should be browser-dependent. Any browser ought to send to Wiktionary exactly what you typed. It oughtn't to make guesses about how it is to be interpreted. When I tested this originally, actually also with "don't", I found that don’t (curly) had a redirect page to don't (straight), i.e. someone (presumably) manually created the redirect. Based on that, I assumed that the search software didn't automatically handle it. However, now when I try searching for fo’c’s'le (two curlies and one straight), fo'c's’le (two straights and one curly) etc., they all take me to fo'c's'le (three straights) automatically, without any redirect page. Therefore I assume that curly and straight are treated the same by search, unless separate pages exist. On the other hand, as you can see, links don't work. Mihia (talk) 21:58, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
It's good that the links don't work. That gives the editor a signal that there may be something wrong in their usage of apostrophes. Correct (or any currently existing) forms may be found by writing the same text in the search box. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:20, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

printer's apostropheEdit

Apropos of the above, is "printer's apostrophe" a known term for the curly straight apostrophe? The Wiktionary definition reads "An apostrophe (punctuation mark) indicating elision". I don't really understand whether "indicating elision" is supposed to differentiate a "printer's" apostrophe from other types, or whether it is just general extra information about the purpose of an apostrophe. Anyway, the definition makes no reference to curly vs. straight. Should it? Mihia (talk) 19:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

To add the confusion: in Unicode the sign called "APOSTROPHE" is a straight one. I guess they forgot to consult linguists when naming it. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:34, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
A straight apostrophe is an apostrophe, and anyway that's typography, not linguistics. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Mutation of personal pronouns in IrishEdit

In Irish, do first and second-person pronouns ever mutate? Thus, is it Ar mhé/mhise or mé/mise, Níor mhuid/mhuidne (or shinn/shinne) or muid/muidne, ba shibh/shibhse or sibh/sibhse, etc.? Esszet (talk) 22:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

To my knowledge, of the first and second person pronouns, only mutates; thú is the disjunctive form, i.e. it appears in the same positions as é, í, iad, while appears in the same positions as , , siad (at least in the standard language; dialectal usage may be more complicated). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:54, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Alright, but we may want to get a second opinion anyway…@Embryomystic? Esszet (talk) 22:21, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I can't find any evidence that pronouns mutate. For a start, I don't think any verbs mutate the subject, except in some cases the definite article mutates a noun, except Chonaic an mé é "The I saw it" is as nonsensical in Irish as in English. (And even where the verb or copula does mutate, it doesn't mutate a pronoun: "Ba mise an dochtúir".) And the prepositions merge with the pronouns, so it's not "ar mé", it's "orm"; it's not "do tú", it's "duit". Some of these syntheses do get lenited, but I suspect it's a dialect/accent variance, not something with grammatical significance. In terms of the Caighdeán Oifigiúil, though, no. Apart from "thú" as distinct from "tú", the pronouns don't get mutated. In Irish, anyway. I think Scottish Gaelic does lenite pronouns, and while there are a couple of hits (now I've had a chance to have a deeper look) for things like "ba mhise", it would appear to be, at the least, non-standard compared to ba mise" --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 22:38, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, all this, pretty much. And similar to the dhuit, etc. that Catsidhe notes, Ulster Irish lenites the M in the first-person singular form of do: domh. But it's just dialectical variation, nothing predictable about it. embryomystic (talk) 23:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Alright, that should probably be noted somewhere...I’ll find a place. Esszet (talk) 15:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC)


From Spanish coco, which DLE claims is from Portuguese côco (bogeyman). Can't find that spelling, Portuguese coco has RFE. Any ideas? – Jberkel (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I guess that spelling is like writing co1co and co2co, or coco1 and coco2, as they are not only homonyms because of the etymology but also because of the phonology: one is with closed /o/=/ô/ and the other open /ɔ/=/ó/. About the etym for the three [meanings] of /ô/, Houaiss says:
  1. [mask/plant/vessel/skull/cachaça/groping] coco /ô/ e coca /ô/ têm orign. o signf. de 'papão, fantasma com que se mete medo às crianças', p.ext. 'fruto do coqueiro' e, daí, 'objeto esférico, cabeça' e uma série de signf. segundos e cruzamentos entre as f. coco/coca e cuco/cuca; para coco /ô/ e coca /ô/, Piel busca a orig. no calcáre 'pressionar, apertar', pelo "facto de os franceses chamarem este fantasma ou espírito (al. Alpdruck, lit. 'peso do espírito chamado Alp') perturbador do sono de cauchemar", voc. bem explicado como der. de calcáre + germ. mar 'espírito noturno'; a hipótese deve ser levada em conta, segundo J. P. Machado (s.v. 1coco); o trânsito da acp. 'papão' para 'fruto com que se figurava o papão' e 'fruto da palmeira chamada coqueiro' é bem documentado: o port. coco /ô/ e coca /ô/, design. de 'fantasma infantil, papão, figura de mau aspecto ou de mau agouro', foi us. para o 'fruto redondo' do coqueiro encontrado pelos portugueses no território asiático de Malabar, na viagem de Vasco da Gama à Índia (1497-1498), por associação da aparência do fruto à cara ou à figura do 'papão'; do port. a pal. passa ao esp. fr. ing. coco, it. cocco, al. Kokos e aos comp. ing. coconut e al. Kokosnuss; a acp. angios prende-se ao lat.cien. gên. Cocos (1753); a última acp., 'esfregação lúbrica', pode ter relação com o roçar no fuste do coqueiro, como exige a sua coleta, ou poderia ligar-se ao verbo cocar no sentido de 'acalentar, fazer festas'; cp. coca /ô/ e 1cuca; 1449 é a data para a acp. de angios, e c1471-c1536, para a acp. 'máscara ou objeto'
  2. [dança] 2coco /ô/ 'dança regional', hom. de 1coco /ô/ e prov. de mesma orig., pode provir, no entanto, de outro étimo, ainda obsc.
  3. [dress] nothing
Need translation? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 22:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Não, obrigado! So the origin is definitely Portuguese (Vasco da Gama) with a hypothetical link coco – Latin calcare. – Jberkel (talk) 09:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

road sign - traffic signEdit

Is there a difference in meaning? If not, I think we can move the translations of road sign to traffic sign. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I think they can be synonyms, but traffic sign would also be one of those big ones with the orange lightbulbs spelling something out, right? Additionally, I think street sign is a synonym; I would describe a stop sign as a street sign. Ultimateria (talk) 19:44, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: sorry, I'm not visualising it :3 would you have a picture for that sort of traffic sign? And our definition of street sign seems too restrictive then. --Barytonesis (talk) 08:28, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: According to Wikipedia it's a variable-message sign. I've found articles from Google Images that refer to them as both traffic and road signs (and certainly not as variable-message signs.) Ultimateria (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I haven't tried to find citations, but it seems to me that road sign has two meanings – it could either be a synonym of street sign ("a sign showing the name of a street") or of traffic sign ("a sign for the control of traffic or the information of drivers"). — SGconlaw (talk) 11:03, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

-d, -'d/'dEdit

I've seen headlines use "OKd"; searching Google News for "OKd for" I spot two from the last two weeks: "Grant OKd for Beaverton clinic" (Portland Tribune) and "Nonbinary designation OKd for Californians" (SFGate), vs none for "OKed for" and one "OK'ed for". I've also seen people use "PMd". Is that common? Also: use of "'d" ("OK'd") should surely be in -'d and not 'd, or at least, shouldn't be in both places. And is -'ed ('ed? as in "OK'ed") also nonstandard even with initialisms? (Was it used historically? With no deleted letter, there does not seem to be a reason for it, except with modern initialisms where it clarifies pronunciation.) - -sche (discuss) 17:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

In the news: Arabic يصبحهم‏Edit

See “Facebook translates 'good morning' into 'attack them', leading to arrest”. Apparently Facebook's inbuilt translation tool renders Arabic يصبحهم (“yusbihuhum”, good morning) to “attack them”, leading to the arrest of a Palestinian man by the Israeli police.

What are these two words? The one the poster meant seems to be يُصَبِّحُهُمْ (yuṣabbiḥuhum, he wishes them good morning) < صَبَّحَ (ṣabbaḥa) (?). What about the other? I couldn't seem to find any word with that spelling. The closest I found were يُذَبِّحُهُمْ (yuḏabbiḥuhum, he slaughters them) < ذَبَّحَ (ḏabbaḥa), and يَذْبَحُهُمْ (yaḏbaḥuhum, he slaughters them) < ذَبَحَ (ḏabaḥa). Wyang (talk) 13:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I think the other word is يَضْرِبُ‏هُمْ (yaḍribuhum, he beats them) < ضَرَبَ (ḍaraba, to strike, to hit), if I can decipher this article correctly. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Usage example at おまんこEdit

Via twisted paths I landed on おまんこ, looked at the usage example… no translation. The phrase is «おまん子のむく毛は馬がこするやう». Firstly, I am surprised to see it spelled with 子 instead of full Hiragana. This way it almost looks like a compound おまん+子, whereas it is actually おまん+こ. Anyways, if おまん子 means "pussy", むく毛 means "rubby hair" (blast the damn googl "fungus"…), 馬 means "horses" and こするやう means… I dunno, Google says "rub", so… «Horses rub the shaggy hair of the pussy»? What? Is that some kind of obscene pun? On closer inspection, こするやう may be こする+やう, the former is "rub", and the only meaning I can find for the latter is 夜雨 | night rain. So «Night rain under which horses rub shaggy pussy hair»? Um, what? Can someone help me figure this out and possibly add a translation? MGorrone (talk) 13:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Thank you for the chuckle, MGorrone. :) Let's break this down:
  • Re: the spelling, the example given is from a collection of 川柳 (senryū, basically, a kind of haiku; see also Senryū), so there's a certain amount of poetic license. Add to that the fact that this is from 1833, when spelling conventions themselves were somewhat more fluid anyway. So the use of (ko, child; diminutive noun suffix, kanji, also sometimes used phonetically) for the final (ko, hiragana) is not that odd.
  • むく (mukuge) can be parsed a few different ways. This again is part of the wordplay common in Japanese literature.
Given the context, the last is more likely the intended meaning, while alluding to the flower (not an uncommon connection even in English writing on the subject of female genitalia) and punning on the “shaggy” meaning in relation to the horse.
  • こする (kosuru) here is probably the “to rub” sense, lemmatically spelled 擦る. Another interesting possibility is 鼓する (kosuru, to incite or encourage someone to do something); however, this latter verb is transitive, and we have no clear object -- horses might pluck up their own courage, but it would be odd for a horse to encourage someone else, especially in relation to this subject matter.
  • The final やう (yau) is the pre-reform spelling of modern よう (, like something, seeming to be something).
So putting this all together, we have:
  • the [downy? shaggy?] hair of the pussy, like a horse rubbing
This still seems odd, until we note that a horse will often rub against something when it's bothered. So I suspect this senryū is describing a woman who is hot and bothered and is masturbating.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr so would the translation I just added, «The fluff on the pussy is like a [bothered] horse rubbing (refers to female masturbation).», be correct? MGorrone (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@MGorrone:, close, but it doesn't quite fit... the English rendering couples (ha!) the first and second parts too closely. The JA doesn't quite say that the first part itself is like the second part. It's hard to render grammatically as English. The Japanese can be grammatical and a vaguer and still make sense. The は on the first part introduces the topic, but not necessarily the subject, of the utterance. I've reworked it slightly to try to make the EN a bit more open-ended:
The fluff on the pussy ... like a [bothered] horse rubbing [up against something] (in reference to female masturbation)
If that passes muster, the quotation lines could use a bit of templating / formatting. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:20, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

scarce /ɛ/Edit

Could sb. please add info. about this anomality in its pronunciation? --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

What anomaly is that? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: farce, larceny, sparse, Mars --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: That's a deficiency in English spelling, not an anomaly in the pronunciation of scarce. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: I disagree in this case. The key is its pronunciation in Middle English, which following the "general rule" for its spelling, shouldn't deviate from the rest. --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I was thinking that scarce could have had a long vowel in Middle English. Problem is that the word itself consists of solely a closed syllable, indicating an anomalous lengthening. Hence we once again arrive at the problem that @Backinstadiums is asking about. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 00:33, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
  • First off: I have little experience researching English etymologies. Looking specifically at scarce, I find myself wondering if the /ɛ/ pronunciation arose more recently by way of influence from scare? Are there any historical rhyming dictionaries of Middle English that could elucidate the pronunciation at that stage of the language? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:51, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98, Eirikr: In Shakespeare's times it followed the regular pattern.

Does that lead credence to Eirikr's hypothesis? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 03:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

جِياد plural of جيدEdit

According to this resource, جِياد is a plural of the adj. جيد. Could sb. please confirm? --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2017 (UTC)



These IPs, presumably the same person, have tagged at least a couple of entries as exonyms that shouldn't have that label. I've responded on one talk page and undone edits to pages where I'm 100% certain that "exonym" can't be right, but could someone else check the other entries? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused, I'm lost here, I guess all are exonyms. La Meca is Spanish for Mecca, which AFAIK are exonyms coz are not used in Saudi Arabia, not even with aliphate. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:52, 27 October 2017 (UTC)


Since Punic is written from right to left, shouldn't the plural form would be 𐤎𐤐𐤈𐤌 instead of 𐤌𐤈𐤐𐤎? --Malaysiaboy (talk) 11:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, you're right. It should be fixed now. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:28, 27 October 2017 (UTC)


I'm not sure why a Danish reference is included, which is an inflection of the Danish verb vække. The Danish equivalent to vakt is vagt. Shall we just remove the ref? DonnanZ (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Maybe replace it with a reference to SAOB? Mewasul (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
A good idea, added both SAOB and SAOL. DonnanZ (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Category:Terms derived from Game of ThronesEdit

I don't watch the show myself, but it seems there may be a need for this category (along the lines of Category:English terms derived from Tolkien's legendarium). We do have Category:A Song of Ice and Fire, but entries like Pheidole viserion certainly don't belong in it (and I'm not sure ones like Khaleesi do either). Should we have this category, and if so, how should the two be linked to each other? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I;m also confused why Category:Terms derived from Tolkien's legendarium by language isn't just called Category:Terms derived from Tolkien's legendarium like Category:Terms derived from German. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)


Is this a true suffix? Doesn't feel like one. No other entry links there. Equinox 12:43, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I find the notion awkward that this be a suffix. As this “works” part is semantically heavy, it is clearly compositional and not derivational. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 12:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
No entry for -works in Oxford Online, and there is a derived terms section at works. Even then there are certain terms missing such as sewage works and coachworks (a motor trade business that does coachwork). I think -works is a candidate for RFD. DonnanZ (talk) 16:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

have an eye forEdit

Not being a native English speaker, I might be wrong here. But if someone had said «[someone] has an eye for [something]» I wouldn't think they have a good taste, but rather that they are good at spotting or picking up something – as in «she has an eye for beauty», «he has an eye for details», «she has an eye for talents». Is the definition correct? Mewasul (talk) 02:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Mewasul You're right, the definition is broader and I've tried a new one. I think "appreciate" is a key term here. Do the Norwegian translations still apply? Ultimateria (talk) 09:02, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ultimateria Yes, they do. Thanks for replying! :) Mewasul (talk) 12:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Chinese 封信Edit

as in "一封封信". Is this valid? —suzukaze (tc) 07:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I think this is:
one classifier classifier letter
i.e. many many letters. Wyang (talk) 08:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, OK. Thank you! —suzukaze (tc) 19:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

apiece: which prefix?Edit

So, apiece links to a-, but there's a zillion entries. I kinda understand it as "per piece, for each item", but no entry really seems to match. Which one is it?

Also, I was wondering how productive it is, or how acceptable it'd look today? (Like, "Rent is $200 aweek", "No less than 200 words apage", sic.)

Thanks, 14:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I don't think it should be a prefix in apiece, but a compound of a + piece. Check here. DonnanZ (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
    • The Online Etymology Dictionry's entry says "see a (2) + piece"; their "a (2)" is the one derived from Old English an (on), which makes it the same as our a-#Etymology 2. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, I've updated apiece with both sources. (Couldn't link to a-#Etymology 2 specifically, though.) Regardless, what about the productivity of this "a+word" thing? How weird would it look to write things like "Rent is $200 aweek" or "No less than 200 words apage"? 15:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I think "aweek" and "apage" would have to catch on first. Apiece was apparently first used in Middle English, so it's been in use for a very long time. DonnanZ (talk) 10:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. 19:06, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

overworld mapEdit

An RFD a while ago left this entry incoherent, since the remaining "by extension" sense still refers to the deleted sense. I think it's still SoP and would delete the whole thing (perhaps move some cites to overworld); do others agree? Equinox 17:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree, you can refer to almost any video game level or area as a "map" so it's not idiomatic that "overworld map" can also mean "overworld". Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Hungarian helyiség definitionEdit

Which meaning of English "room" does the Hungarian word "helyiség" correspond to?

A separate part of a building, enclosed by walls, a floor and a ceiling. I added it to the entry. --Panda10 (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC)


The Yiddish word listed in the section's heading's entry says "Offensive". However, in my experience, it is only offensive as a loan word into English (Yinglish), but in Yiddish conversation it has become the native term for "African-American". On that note, should Wiktionary have a separate entry for the Yinglish word "Shvartze" and list it as offensive? ShemtovKML (talk) 04:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I've never discussed black people in Yiddish in Europe, mainly because there aren't many. I have discussed black people in Yiddish in the US, where this term is unquestionably offensive, although we felt that נעגער (neger, Negro) as found in e.g. Weinreich is inappropriate nowadays as well (at the time it was meant as a more respectful term). Matching English, I use אַפֿריקאַנער־אַמעריקאַנער (afrikaner-amerikaner), although I've no idea if that's even attestable. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Where you using Yiddish among Heritage Language speakers? Because I could understand such speakers considering it offensive, given its use as a loan into English. However, among native speakers, which is what I am most familiar with, it seems to be a neutral term, though it can be offensive, but in the way "Black" can be offensive in English ie. context. ShemtovKML (talk) 19:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Also re: the etymology.While the entry here lists it as a calque from English "Black", I have hearsay evidence that in pre-war Europe, it was used as a term to refer to Caucasians with a darker skin tone then expected, that was extended to African-Americans, perhaps helped by the calque of English "black". Perhaps someone could research this to see if there are any trusted sources that confirm this etymology out there? ShemtovKML (talk) 19:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

See this article, written by a Black Jew, who, while discussing the implications of loaning the Hebrew "Kushi" into English, says this about "Shvartze" (emphasis mine): "On its own — like shvartze, which is Yiddish — the term is not inherently offensive or derogatory, in the same way the word for “European,” in West African languages, is not at face value an epithet, but merely an implication of outsider status. Context. Context. Context." ShemtovKML (talk) 19:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

sleep with the enemy, go to bed with the enemyEdit

Something I came across in a Norwegian entry (gå til sengs med fienden), which seems to be used figuratively, and not just the title of a film (Sleeping with the Enemy). Is it worth an entry? DonnanZ (talk) 09:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I think sleep with the enemy is definitely worth an entry, and I'm quite surprised we don't have one yet. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, OK, now this is the sticky part, what would be a suitable definition? DonnanZ (talk) 14:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Rather, shouldn't there instead just be additional definitions at sleep with and go to bed with? I say this because while "the enemy" is a common object of this phrase, it's not the only collocation. For example, one might say, "The Conservative party have gone to bed with the DUP." Possible synonyms are deal with the devil and Faustian bargain. -Stelio (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree with @Stelio – and should have given it a second thought before creating the entry :) I'll add examples to gå til sengs med and fiende. Mewasul (talk) 03:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm certainly not condemning your entry, in fact I like it. It can stay. DonnanZ (talk) 17:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Chinese 0 língEdit

According to, yet "0" does not appear in líng. What meaning of bottom is it? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:54, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

It's LGBT slang (or gay slang, as written previously). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:03, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
And is it really 0, or is it ? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: Obviously it's ; I didn't notice bcuz it doesn't appear in líng, do you know why? --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
No. No one added it yet, I guess; that's the wiki way. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:33, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
@Angr, Backinstadiums: I don't think it's in this context. If it were , then "top" would be , but it's 1. And yeah, it's not in líng because líng doesn't automatically get updated when 0 was created. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 16:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
I just have to say I really like the idea of using 1 and 0 to mean top and bottom respectively. I had hoped 10#Chinese would mean vers, but it doesn't, it means anal sex. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: Why top and bottom? in which situations? what does vers. mean? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:26, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: In gay slang, a top is a man who prefers to be the one doing the penetrating in anal sex, a bottom is a man who prefers to be the one getting penetrated, and a vers is a man who likes both. So it's kind of cutely symbolic in my opinion to use 1 to mean "top" and 0 to mean "bottom". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Cebuano siya - síyaEdit

I don't know anything about Cebuano and have no idea what's going on there, but it seems strange to me that a single diacritic should warrant the existence of two entries. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:51, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

In some languages a single diacritic is certainly enough to warrant the existence of two entries, e.g. Irish cuan vs. cuán. But to judge from síya#Usage Notes, in this case síya should probably just be an {{alternative spelling of}} siya. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Of course (it applies to French as well: la vs. ); my post was badly written, sorry about that. Btw, are we sure it's an alternative spelling used in running text, and not a "dictionary spelling"? I mean, we don't want to create an entry for Russian господи́н alongside господин, for example. --Barytonesis (talk) 14:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

etyl|mul|en template and nonexistent w:Translingual languageEdit

Just bumped into tetra and noticed that the "etyl|mul|en" template for "Translingual" currently produces a link to w:Translingual language, but «Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Translingual language in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.». I believe w:Translingualism was meant, but I cannot edit templates (and would probably not attempt to even if I could, given my terrible programming skills outside TeX and my very low knowledge of Wiki templates in particular), so I cannot do anything about this. Can someone fix this? MGorrone (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

The easiest solution is to make w:Translingual language a hard redirect to w:Translingualism. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

day before yesterday - day after tomorrowEdit

The translation tables for the nouns probably need cleanup in many languages: there's a confusion between the words used in direct speech (as in "Yesterday, I did that") and reported speech ("I told him that I did that the day before"). --Barytonesis (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I bit off topic, but it's interesting Hindi परसों (parsõ) handles both phrases and direct and reported speech. I'd imagine all the Indo-Aryan languages in the tables are fine then. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 20:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Wow. Too bad I don't speak it, otherwise I would try and confuse everyone by adding ambiguous usexes! a not so subtle invitation... --Barytonesis (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

November 2017


The 5th meaning of 跑車 'race car' reads "car race"; is it o.k.? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is it not ok? Wyang (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang:The 1st meaning is race car, a type of car, and the fifth a car race, a type of race. --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)


Should we create an entry for victim mentality, and add a pejorative sense to victim ("someone who is prone to feelings of helplessness")? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think so, though adding the new sense to victim might just make victim mentality a sum of its parts. —Globins (talk) 06:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Contributions of User:JawitkienEdit

Could somebody (who has any idea about Lojban) give this user some help with formatting etc.? See e.g. bacrynandu. Equinox 19:30, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

what did I do that you don't like? Jawitkien (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jawitkien: hello, and welcome. Please look at this edit, and pay attention to what I've changed. --Barytonesis (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind attention. I am mostly regularizing entries. I rarely get to add a new one. Jawitkien (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

晶晶: "Lua error: not enough memory"Edit

Just bumped into 晶晶 and noticed the "Derived terms" section only reads "Lua error: not enough memory". What should we do about it? What is the problem? MGorrone (talk) 20:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

There was nothing actually there so I've removed it. DTLHS (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Apparently some of them are here


The page XBoxes should exist. Here is 3 books that have the word "XBoxes": [6][7][8]. -- 22:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and I think most others will too. —Globins (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


Is there no such word in English? If yes, would permutation be a synonym? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are supportable senses in music and law. DTLHS (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

day and night AND night and dayEdit

In what way are these adjectives?? Equinox 02:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No way that justifies an adjective PoS, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

to the faceEdit

I am a bit sceptical: "he ate a whole pizza to the face"? (no Google hits except for our entry). I've put "slang" on it because it has to be, but where is this used, and is it real? Equinox 05:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Why not just RfV it? DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm familiar with take something to the face and the related take something to the head, but these mean something slightly different (i.e. consume the something). These would definitely be considered as slang Leasnam (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
This has a definite second-language/calque feel to it- @Wikitiki89 might have picked it up from local usage among first- or second-generation immigrant communities. As for rfv: that combination of words gets millions of Google Books hits- I'm not really sure how you would filter out all the false positives. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
See WT:RFVE#to the face. DCDuring (talk) 10:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


Hello, I let a message here about the word conver but since it is recommended to let a message here as well, so here it is. Pamputt (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Isn't it a typo for cover? --Barytonesis (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Who knows? I have no idea. Yeah, you're right. DonnanZ (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


"A pipe connecting the drain to the gutter." I assume this means a roof gutter downpipe or downspout, but what about other forms of drainpipe, e.g. from a bath or kitchen sink, or are they always known as waste pipes? DonnanZ (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Here in the UK, a "drainpipe" is a pipe from a roof gutter down the side of a building. I have never the word used to mean a waste pipe from a bath, sink or similar. I couldn't say about other English-speaking parts of the world. Mihia (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, as far as I understand the word, it's specific to draining water away from a building, not from an appliance etc. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

pop socketEdit

The term "pop socket" (variations: "popsocket", "PopSocket", "Pop Socket", etc.) appears in Google searches of years 2013 through 2017. Etymologically, the term may have originated from the name of a company that produces cell phone accessory objects call "pop sockets" (typically circular solid objects that have adhesive to stick to a cell phone to make the cell phone stand up at an angle). According to Wiktionay policy entries need to have existed for a year or more: else, their page is deleted. This term has existed for around 5 years. However, It may not be notable enough for a page. --Spunionztastic (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

We're a descriptive dictionary, so usage is the only source of notability here. In this case, pretty much all the English usage in durably-archived sources found by Google Books and Google Groups seems to be the combination of various things known by the acronym POP and the programming or electronic-hardware senses of socket, with some odds and ends of random occurrence of "pop"/"POP" and "socket(s)" next to each other. There are a couple of German references to the cellphone product and a spam-type commercial message posted to a couple of non-Usenet Google Groups, but those don't count. Some people have had luck finding things in newspapers that are durably archived, but this doesn't look that promising. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

father tongueEdit

could an administrator create father tongue please. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:A48E:853C:8987:9F21 22:09, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Place for the request: WT:Requested entries (English)#F. - 06:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

love the sinner, hate the sinEdit

I created the page "love the sinner, hate the sin" but need help on improvements. I felt that citations are unnecessary unless I'm told otherwise; the phrase has been often used. --George Ho (talk) 22:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems SoP (ie, sum-of-parts, not an idiom, therefore not includable) as a verb. But it is often found as a kind of proverb, which would allow for inclusion IMO. DCDuring (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind, but I completely reworded it. I don't think your definition was completely neutral-POV (e.g. "what they consider a sin"), and it didn't capture the sense of the word as a Christian would use it. My definition may be slightly wordy, so you are welcome to improve upon it, but be wary of implying anything that isn't actually part of the meaning of the phrase as it's used. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:38, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology : CARTAGENA - Province of Spain - name used in Spain and most former colonies of Spain.Edit

As Cartagena is being traduced, most people go for the name "New Carthago", as eg. New York, New Jersey, etc., meaning a copy of a city in the colonisator's country. The history of Cartagena - Spain might be quite similar as being the "New" edition of an existing name in the country of origin. The name "Cartagena" does refer to Carthago as the main base of Cartagenian identity. The term "gena" though does not refer to what we call "new"." "Gena" refers to "gender" with all its origines and derivatives as "genus", "generous", "gens" (French),"gentes" Spanish),"general","Genesis" (Meaning Birth). "Gender" was used to indicate "sex" in <15th century England. "Gender" means "blood related", can be a man, a woman, a son, a daughter, a nephew, etc. ... and sometimes a whole Nation was identified by the same "Gender". As "Gender" can be translated into "Family", the name "Cartagena does not mean "New Carthago" but "from Carthagian gender - Carthagian family", as Romans called "Cartagena". All peoples around the Mediterranean some 2200 years ago identified themselve as member of the gender Julii as Julius Ceasar, or the gender Gracchi as Tiberius Grachus, or the gender Skipii as Skipio Africanus, etc. ... Your position in Roman Society was all dependant of the fame or infame your family collected during the past history. Member of the Julii family, the Grachi family, the Skipii famili, and ergo, the Cartagenian familie which gave its name to "CARTAGENA" instead of "NEW CARTHAGO"

The author = Patrick Vermeulen - Belgium, thanks you for your interest.


AFAIK, not "chiefly US". What do you think? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Definitely not, IMO. Wyang (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Rare in UK in my experience. Restaurants etc. just call them drinks. Equinox 17:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
It's common in Canada as well, so so far, it'd be chiefly Canada, US, Australia. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, I've made some changes. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
It certainly is used in the UK, but it's more formal term than "drink". Collins ([[9]]) makes no distinction in its the British and American definitions. For that reason, I don't believe it needs any regional label at all for this sense, and so I have removed it. — Paul G (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It's definitely used differently in the US. I mean, the word obviously exists in the UK, but it's not something your waitress is likely to say to you. How we codify that in usage labels, I don't know. Ƿidsiþ 13:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

dressed up/done up like a dog's dinnerEdit

We already have dog's dinner, but I don't think it covers adequately the meaning of the above expression. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Pon YupEdit

I doubt it refers to the modern district. The name 番禺 was used for different jurisdictions in its history. The modern designation as a district is a relatively new one (since 2000). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:54, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


The first sense is just a list of synonyms. A better definition please? DTLHS (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I've had a go at it. Feel free to improve. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Re mortarEdit

I came to mortar because I wanted to find out why the "mixture of lime" and "indirect fire weapon" are both called "mortar". This page completely fails to do so, only providing the etymology for the context-less word itself.

While I can guess why the weapon got to be called "mortar", what has this to do with building bricks and grinding ingredients?

In short, what is the etymology for the concept of "mixture of lime"? CapnZapp (talk) 13:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Does clockwise need 2 definitions?Edit

'Left' and 'right' are notoriously difficult to define, as first you have to define the observer and what they observe. The wiktionary definitions both invoke the compass to get it across. (I think this is why some people have difficulty remembering which is which... for some people it's intrinsic to the observer, for others it's just an arbitrary abstract concept).

Anyway, I think definition 1 of clockwise is ok, you're allowed to use the concepts of 'right', 'left' and 'clock', and rest on the metaphor like the whole word does, without using words like 'axis' or 'perpendicular'. I'll still rewrite it tho cos it seems a bit clunky.

However, I've read definition 2 five times:

2. (of movement) Positioned as such when facing the side of a circular structure or configuration, objects moving within the structure approach from the right-hand side, and depart toward the left-hand side.

I feel like there is at the very least a missing "that" which should be inserted for the hard of thinking (i.e. me). But... what does meaning 2 mean and how is it different from the first definition? I imagined the notional structure as being outside the observer, not vice versa (which as far as I can tell reverses the definition). And how can something positioned in reference to a circular structure be itself 'clockwise' or 'counter-/anticlockwise'? Because the definition is talking about motion after all.

I feel like I'm missing something really basic :( Moogsi (talk) 01:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, weird. "(of movement) Positioned..." sounds like a bad start. Equinox 01:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah "positioned of movement" should be the first clue. I wondered if there was some special meaning... Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I have edited clockwise adv. Please criticize Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I removed references to movement because I don't think this is essentially motional but rather spatial e.g. "The hours of a sundial are arranged anticlockwise" Moogsi (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Latin: respondeorEdit

The author of entry for verb "respondeo" claims that The passive voice is limited to third-person singular forms. However there exists in wiktionary an entry "respondeor". This contradicts what is said of "respondeo". Pierrecmichaud (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the Latin entry whole, it was created by a bot. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 04:05, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
There are other spurious forms: respondebar, respondebor, etc. These might be attested, but it's definitely non-classical/proscribed. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

RFV: marks on Italian obliquum pronounsEdit

Is this dissymmetry true (at least could be in PT/GL/ES)?:

  • meco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • teco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • seco: Prep. archaic. literary DEF (2)
  • nosco: Pron. HEAD poetic, archaic (4 by extension)
  • vosco: Adv. HEAD poetic, archaic (1)

Notice the different placement of the marks (before DEF inition; or TCX after HEAD) with no relation to the number of senses (1-4) whatsoever. And the diff POS. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


Definition makes no sense at all. How can all races be superior? Superior to what, if not other races? What does "anti-racist with anti-Semitism" mean? Equinox 15:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps "superior" should be changed to "equal". I think the end part refers to this belief as being non-racist, and especially having no anti-semitic affiliations Leasnam (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any usage for it. All I can find is references to w:William Reich and one or two references to German imperialism. There's one quote from the Clinton administration in the US, apparently referring to w:Robert Reich. A quick look through the hits for "Reichist" show pretty much only German, not English. It looks to me like the folks at Wikipedia couldn't figure this out, so they transwikied it here instead of just deleting it. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, right, I assumed the reich was the third reich or something, not a surname. Thanks. Equinox 23:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, in the case of the references to German imperialism- but that wouldn't be capitalized in English, and I don't think they're the same as the challenged sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

make the hunting dog chase the rabbitEdit

Hey all. Do we have a word in English meaning to make the dog chase the rabbit, in hunting? Spanish's got one - engalgar - WF


How does "prepared" mean "willing"? I don't understand this definition. DTLHS (talk) 01:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The definition is correct. In most cases 'prepared' means 'willing'. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe we could add a literal sense: "factually/pragmatically prepared" (good to go, ready), as opposed to "mentally/emotionally prepared" (willing). I've added two synonyms, does that help? Also, compare readiness, which means both "preparedness" and "willingness". --Barytonesis (talk) 15:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I also think we need a definition for prepared as in "I am more prepared for this test than the last one." and "I am better prepared to take this test.". DCDuring (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

fair's fairEdit

No entry for this that I can see. Oxford online has "used to request just treatment or assert that a situation is just". DonnanZ (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  • No response, entry created. DonnanZ (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What does 주일 mean?Edit

I have a Korean Mass timetable distinguishing 주일미사, 토요미사, 평일미사. Wiktionary lets me translate them as Weekday Mass, Saturday Mass, Weekday Mass. Err, what? Surely one of those Weekday Masses is actually a Sunday Mass? Google suggests 주일 means weekend/week/weekday/holiday/Sunday, and translates 주일미사 to Sunday mass. Moreover, the etymology is 週日, which means Sunday basically everywhere, and can mean Weekday in Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. So what does 주일 mean? Sunday or Weekday? Or maybe both are possible but it's Sunday in 주일미사? MGorrone (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I have no answer to your question, but I do wonder why Mass is 밋사 (mitsa) in the first term and 미사 (misa) in the other two. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: because on a Romaja keyboard that is Missa and Misa and, well, typo :). Accidental double s. Fixed now. MGorrone (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @MGorrone: FWIW, 週日 (shūjitsu) in Japanese means wither “week days → number of days in a week: seven days”, or “weekday”, generally meaning every day except Saturday and Sunday. Also, Google Translate (and, so far as I've seen, any MT platform at all) is often unreliably inaccurate. I do note that our Korean 주일 (ju-il) entry displays a notable lack of Sunday-ness.
That said, the 주일 entry on Naver shows two derivations -- one from 週日, meaning “weekday; week”, and one from 主日, meaning “Lord's day → Sunday”. So apparently in Korean, 주일 (ju-il) can confusingly mean either “Sunday” or “weekday (excluding Sunday)”. In the context of your text, I suspect 주일 is meant with the 主日 derivation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:16, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@MGorrone Eirikr pretty much got it correct, though I'm not aware of it meaning “weekday”. I've expanded the entry. Please take a look. Wyang (talk) 07:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: I recall reading that hangul spellings don't indicate long vowels, even though they apparently exist as a phonemic element in Korean terms. By way of comparison, JA does have a length distinction between these two terms, as 週日 (shūjitsu) with a long /uː/, and 主日 (shujitsu) with a short /u/. On the 주일 (ju-il) page, should there be any difference in pronunciation for the 週日 and 主日 derivations? Or is there no vowel-length distinction between these two in Korean?
Curious, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr This is a funny one, because Korean merges 週日 and 主日 and makes them completely homophonous (length included), while Japanese keeps the pronunciations apart, even though Japanese on average merges more Sino-xenic readings than Korean. I remember this table from a few years back that illustrated this general tendency quite vividly.
With these two words:
Character Middle Chinese Mandarin Cantonese Sino-Japanese
Sino-Korean Sino-Vietnamese
/꜀t͡ɕɨu/ invalid IPA characters (꜀) /ʈ͡ʂou˥˥/ /t͡sau˥˥/ /siu/ > /sjuː/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˧/
/꜂t͡ɕɨo/ invalid IPA characters (꜂) /ʈ͡ʂu˨˩˦/ /t͡ɕy˧˥/ /sju/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˩/
The Japanese long/short vowel difference reflects the different rhymes in MC, whereas a difference in vowel length in Korean (although there is none here) is usually the consequence of different tones in MC. Wyang (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Dutch: weggeweestEdit

The inflected forms "weggeweeste" en "weggeweests" simply do not exist, anymore than "geweeste" exists. The latter is always the strong "gewezen" and means "former", ex-"

Jcwf (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay. It sounds as though all you had to do was to remove the table, which I've now done. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

"The dick" instead of the fuck: how common?Edit

I heard this in a few Youtube videos by The Grand Poobear (a streamer) and perhaps one by ryukahr (another streamer), and I was wondering if it's just him (or them two) or it's more widespread, and if we could possibly find attestation for this. I only remember one Poobear quotation: «What the dick enemy was that?!». Urban Dictionary seems to support that it's not just two people (I assume only two people wouldn't create an entry with that many sections?). Other sources? MGorrone (talk) 14:08, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Even if more people use this, my guess is that it's too new of a phrase for there to be any attestations. —Globins (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Want, IgnoranceEdit

Defined as "a personification of want" and "a personification of ignorance". Can you not do this with any abstract concept by giving it a capital? I'm reminded of an old ad for breakfast cereal, "Hunger strikes!", where Hunger was a little dancing monster that had to be locked up till lunchtime. Equinox 19:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why these have their own entries. As far as I know, there's no widely agreed-upon personification of either of these concepts like the personifications of death or time. —Globins (talk) 06:47, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not sure about these. You can do this with any abstract concept, and it was a common literary device, in classical antiquity and the renaissance particularly, to do so. So I'm sure you could find some citations for both, but there is no extra information in the definition other than 'personification of X'. The only other concept I have a strong image for is Envy, and that's only because of Shakespeare's 'green-eyed monster'. All others I can think of are borrowed from antiquity and have definite forms (Justice, Victory, etc.) I think these definitions can be removed. Moogsi (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


The etymology reads "Clipping of clitoris". I feel it's a rather unfortunate choice of words... --Barytonesis (talk) 20:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

clipping is the technical term; see our third definition. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I'm aware of that; I was just underlining the fact that "clipping of clitoris" is dangerously close to "clipping of clitoris". I've replaced "clipping" with "apocope". --Barytonesis (talk) 23:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: But it isn't apocope. Apocope is the deletion of the final vowel (plus any consonants that may follow it). The apocope of clitoris would be *clitor. It may sound unfortunate in this circumstance, but it is a clipping, like it or not. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: Oh, I see. I thought apocopes and aphaereses were subtypes of clippings. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Well they are, but those terms are more specific than clipping, and since clitoris removes more than the word-final V(C) sequence, it's not apocope. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:40, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
The wording is a little unfortunate, maybe "short form of" would be better. DonnanZ (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I assumed it was a simple abbreviation. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, kind of, but "abbreviation" implies a form like clit. or clit’ whereas "clipping", although a bit jargony, doesn't. Ƿidsiþ 13:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

on the phoneEdit

This was deleted as it is unidiomatic in the sense of "talking via a telephone", but there is an older sense of being connected to the telephone system by having a telephone in one's house. This dates back to the time when many people did not have phones at home, and so people wanting to keep in touch would ask each other "Are you on the phone?"

This sense seems idiomatic to me. Thoughts? — Paul G (talk) 06:45, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

All the citations I found on Google Books for on the phone before 1929 were of the unidiomatic sense. I didn't try News. DCDuring (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Same is true of e.g. "on the Internet" ("they live out in the woods and aren't on the Internet yet" vs. "he's been on the Internet all night"). Equinox 16:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
And you can also say that a building etc. is "on" mains power. I think it's a normal sense of "on" and if we don't have it covered by "on" then we should. Equinox 16:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

There's no way this suffix is unproductive. —Globins (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Keep – widespread use. Just search Google Books for "termination", "deletion", or "justification". Concerns about the label should be raised elsewhere, maybe at the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    What will looking for "termination", "deletion" or "justification" in Google Books prove? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    That the suffix exists. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I know it exists, I just think the label "unproductive" is a mislabeling. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Accordingly, I've moved this discussion to the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Isn't this just an "alternative form of" -ation? SemperBlotto (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Etymologically, it's the other way around: Latin -atio is a metanalysis of -tio when appended to first conjugation verbs. I don't know how it's felt in English, though. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I'd consider it an alternative form in English. -tion vs -ation just depends on whichever one works with the word ending. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Globins: to go back to your original question: is it truly productive? It might feel that way synchronically, but diachronically the only true suffixation I see is gumption; all the rest are borrowings from Latin or French or whatever. --Trousse à queues (talk) 17:53, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    How about discombobulation? I think it might be best to remove the unproductive label and add a Usage Notes section that says that it's a variant of -ation that's only used when the word being suffixed already ends in -ate. —Globins (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
  • To answer the question of whether this suffix per se is productive, I would say no. I can think of some ways it is counterproductive (e.g. the back-formed noun sense of invite replacing invitation - although this is also an instance of initial-stress-derived nouns being very much productive in English). I do think -ify and so -ification are productive, so that may cause some confustion. Moogsi (talk) 18:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


Reading this article about written laughter, I'm not sure about the meaning of “realtalk” in this part:

Take hahaha, which we’ll call basic laughter. It’s actually anything but basic, with the ability to shorten (haha), [...], or replace with an “e” (hehe) — though, realtalk, The New Yorker may have called hehehe a “younger person’s e-laugh,” but ask any actual young person today and his or her response is likely to be “ew.”

Does it simply mean “seriously”, as proposed in the 4th definition on Urban Dictionary? (realtalk - To be serious about something, Being serious about a conversation and/or topic.) Or are there more nuances in it?

Thanks - Cos (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Uh... was my question at the wrong place? badly asked? uninteresting? or nobody knows? I thought I took the effort of asking it the best way that I could, but I'd be happy to learn if I should have done it differently; or maybe I just had bad luck. 😕 (I mean, all the questions around mine seem to have gotten at least a reaction...) - Cos (talk) 12:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I didn't answer because I don't know. Sorry if you felt ignored! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Plural of tindaEdit

What's the plural of tinda (the squash)? Tindas is ok? Fructibus (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

tindas is attested. DTLHS (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Seems right to me (I know my way around Indian English). It's also uncountable. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora Do you mean uncountable, or that "tinda" can also be a plural? ("I have many tinda"). DTLHS (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: The first. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 18:16, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Someone knowing Telugu and wikisaurusEdit

Thesaurus:పండు in Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink ? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sobreira: I don't know any Telugu, but what's wrong with it? It's just a list of fruits in the hyponyms section. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
We should really categorise by language if we're going to create foreign thesaurus entries (which we shouldn't, imo). It's bound to get messy otherwise. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:03, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I hackily made CAT:Hindi Wikisaurus a while back. I don't see any reason not to make foreign language thesauri, we already use {{syn}} and {{ant}} etc. for FL entries. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed that, that's a first step. I'm hesitant about the naming scheme: should it be
The second one doesn't make much sense so we can probably scrape that one. And I know there are opposants to language code. See also Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/August § Disambiguate Wikisaurus (thesaurus) entries by language. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:19, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That was actually my point, Telugu in English.
(I have moved three pages back where they were before, including Thesaurus:coglione. Their being moved is not necessary to illustrate alternative locations; let's avoid any moves that create more mess in the actual thesaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC))
Re: "there are opposants to language code": Sure, and some oppose full names; see Wiktionary:Votes/2017-07/Rename categories. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:12, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@User:Sobreira: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to create new thesaurus entries and have difficulty figuring out how? Or do you just want to remove Thesaurus:పండు from Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:02, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
As for a change of format of names of thesaurus entries, that really is not a topic for Tea room. --Dan Polansky (talk)
@Dan Polansky, no offense intended, but my pretensions are not the matter. I mean, there are some entries in existence and use nor coherent neither stablished and by doing both would solve (re)naming, subcategorising and creating. If you think the change should be treated somewhere else, please and of course, tell me where. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Sobreira: You'll probably be interested in this. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The naming of non-English Thesaurus entries has so far been fairly consistent with Thesaurus:పండు, that is, use the language's own headword. Recently, some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it, and they created a couple of non-English entries not consistent with previous practice.
The venue for discussing structural changes is WT:Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
"some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it": those people... *sigh*. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Anyway, I have removed the category from Thesaurus:పండు so the category only shows English thesaurus items. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Quick question re: pronunciation of reactionaryEdit

Entry in question: reactionary. Currently our pronunciation reads /ɹɪˈækʃən(ə)ɹi/, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the pronunciation /ɹɪˈækʃəˌnɛɹi/ (or something along those lines) before, or at least I've personally been reading it that way all this time. Now while I tend to have a reasonably good feel for the language I'm no native speaker, so I'm wondering if any native English speakers can help clear this up? Are there multiple pronunciations? — Kleio (t · c) 17:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there are. As with many words ending in -ary, there is a British pronunciation in /(ə)ɹi/ and an American pronunciation in /ˌɛɹi/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I see, thank you. Thought I was just imagining things. — Kleio (t · c) 17:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

子, "master" senseEdit

What is the origin of the "(great) master" sense for ? Out of curiosity. --POKéTalker (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Poketalker Probably via “child; offspring” > “person; man; woman” > honorific title for people. It being used as a respectful title was already attested in the oracle bone script. The royal family of the Shang dynasty had the ancestral name 子, which may be related to the word being extended for this use. Wyang (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


Why should we analyze this as a suffix and not just genesis? DTLHS (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Not listed as a suffix in Oxford Online, although -meister is, surprisingly enough. This is possibly a candidate for RFD. DonnanZ (talk) 10:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe because it is treated as the noun counterpart of -genic. Extremely common in medicine though; can be attached to any common pathway endpoint or disease entity and still be considered proper: asthmogenesis, carcinomogenesis, pheomelanogenesis, glucocorticosteroidogenesis, depressogenesis, fibrillinogenesis, glycerologenesis, atherothrombogenesis, melanomagenesis, etc. are all attested. Wyang (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
But they seem to mean the genesis of something. Usually the first part of a compound is derived from another word. DonnanZ (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
It's in the OED. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@Widsith: Can you give us the description in the OED? Concrete proof is obviously needed in the entry. DonnanZ (talk) 16:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
"Forming nouns with the sense ‘origin or development (of the thing or a kind specified by the first element)’" Ƿidsiþ 16:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Great. I'm not sure how to add a ref for the OED, I'm not "up to speed" on that one. DonnanZ (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


The past is gnōh by B&T, but it is gnōg at Old Don't know which it is... Anglish4699 (talk) 03:08, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably both. Word-final g and h are more or less in free variation in Old English. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, however only gnōh is attested for the singular. I have updated the conjugation arguments. Leasnam (talk) 13:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


What does it mean? Collins says "awkward and time-consuming", fitting with "faff about", but the two examples I found at Citations:faffy seem maybe more like "silly". The English Dialect Dictionary has "gusty, apt to blow about" which is probably a separate, older sense, possibly citable (EDD has one cite of "varry faffy"). - -sche (discuss) 03:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I would agree with Collins, but to be honest the meaning strikes me as mostly contextual. That is, if someone was struggling to fill in an information form or something, and said "This is so faffy," it would make perfect sense, but seeing the word in isolation looks pretty weird. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Same. fiddly is a synonym. Equinox 21:45, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you; I've tried to make an entry. I heard it being used of a hot dog, which seemed weird to me—and since it was being said to the owner of the restaurant, unexpectedly rude, which is why I wondered what the word meant. But I guess the speaker thought the restaurant's way of preparing hot dogs was too complicated/fancy. (In fairness, it kinda was.) - -sche (discuss) 07:17, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Personally, I'm shocked that Equinox or WF haven't made an entry for this word before! I've heard it loads. Anyway, I don't consider it slang or rare, so removed them tags --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Look at noun sense 1 of faff (involved process with little perceived benefit). 'Faff about/around' is equivalent to "mess around" or "muck about" in that you don't produce anything. You can extend this to 'faffy' from both related senses. Also agree that this is current in BrE (in the north at least, maybe all over) Moogsi (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Nelkle/Nelklein etymologyEdit

So, I recently noticed that the page for Nelklein, the German word for cloves, does not, in fact, have a Wiktionary page. It is related to Nelke, and should be present as a related word. However, the main focus of my query here is why there is no mention of Näglein in the etymology section for the Nelke or the would-be Nelklein page(s). Nelklein is the direct descendent of Näglein, an archaic form of the word for cloves. Näglein is attested in the liedtext of Brahm's Lullaby and Merck's 1884 Warenlexikon, so I think it should be at least mentioned in the page for Nelke. 15:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@ It's spelled Nelke, plural Nelken. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 12:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Duden has no entry for Nelklein, only Nelke. Looking at the etymology, though, it seems to have originated as a diminutive, so I woud guess it's possible that Nelklein exists as a variant that used -lein instead of -chen and avoided the assimilation/contraction. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz:It is very likely that Nelklein is a diminutive variant, and whilst Duden does not have an entry for Nelklein, it DOES have an entry for Näglein, which appears to be descended itself from the Middle High German word Negellīn. 18:35, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

emergent evolutionEdit

Definition unclear: where is the notion of "evolution" in that? And what type of evolution are we talking about anyway? Biological evolution? (hint: yes). Besides, a sense should be readded to emergent, since "evolution" is by no means the only word to which "emergent" can be applied in that sense. Cf. "emergent property". --2A02:2788:A4:F44:94A2:2D8F:AC26:6C64 16:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I have added a sense to emergent and will send it to RFD. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


Will you please consider refining the definition for votator to: votator: [Proper Adjective] - a brand name (trademark) for a machine that cools and kneads liquid margarine etc., preparatory to packaging

Thank you very much for your attention and consideration.

No. There is no such thing as a "Proper Adjective" and the word isn't even an adjective. Furthermore there is ample evidence of genericization over the last 30 years. DTLHS (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
proper adjective "An adjective, typically capitalized, derived from a proper noun." per Oxford (US) online. Similar definitions can be found in other dictionaries and in language teaching materials. Examples given in other sources are adjectives like American (< America). It is not a very useful classification for us. It seems to be self-evident, at least visually, whether an adjective is a proper one and there are no implications of its being one. I suppose it might have value for persons without sight so that they knew to capitalize the first letter in writing. DCDuring (talk) 01:16, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

be in someone's debtEdit

Does that deserve an entry? --Barytonesis (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

MWOnline thinks in someone's debt at OneLook Dictionary Search is entryworthy. We didn't, but now do have in someone's debt. DCDuring (talk) 01:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
in someone's debt should probably be created because it could be construed as meaning the opposite if you're not familiar with the phrase. —Globins (talk) 03:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to DCDuring for creating the entry. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Not with be at least. Equinox 18:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Not a girl???Edit

So I was watching the Angry Video Game Nerd movie. The Nerd said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." The Nerd thought the girl he was working with had a crush on him or some crap like that. He said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." when talking to his friend.

His friend said "But she's not a girl. She's a gamer."


Okay disregard the fact that what he said could be considered sexist. I know what he was suggesting. He was saying that "well she's a gamer just like you and therefore she's not intending to date you" I think. Well, I've never heard someone saying "she's not a GIRL" as a metaphor for "she's not intending to date you"! What is this type of word usage called? And can any of those parts of "not a girl" merit a Wiktionary entry for this meaning? PseudoSkull (talk) 01:25, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Metonymy. He used the word “girl” for the concept closely associated with the name of a sex: The participation in the sexual market. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 01:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I think the implication isn't what you said, but rather "girls are not generally gamers, so she isn't a typical girl". Compare "he's not a cop, he's a cool guy" (for someone who does actually work as a policeman). Equinox 01:32, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Another, longer way of saying this kind of thing: "She not a girl girl; she's a gamer girl."
I've usually interpreted this kind of thing as "Don't think of her as a girl; think of her as a gamer." DCDuring (talk) 03:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
It's like the classic example: "I am single because I never speak to girls" / "Sure, what about your sister?" / "She's not a girl" --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
I absolutely want to get with Wonderfool's sister. Equinox 22:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)


The given definition doesn't seem to square with Wikipedia's article very well. I see it as partisan. Equinox 07:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I had a go at rewriting this. Ƿidsiþ 07:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • It is IMO an improvement. Thanks for your effort! Equinox 01:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Template problems on Indonesian WiktionaryEdit

Just bumped into wt:id:bahasa Belanda and saw a couple Lua errors. Apparently the codes bs and sr are not recognized by the translations template. I tried bos and srp, and same thing. I temporarily substituted bs with hr (Bosnian with Croatian) and sr with sh (Serbian with Serbo-Croatian), but I don't know if this is appropriate. Surely better than leaving "Lua error" in place of a translation if you ask me. Writing here coz my Indo is plain sheet (worse than my Wiki, and seeing the big fail in the above attempt to link to with an interwiki link makes this comparison effective I guess :) ), and coz I don't know what their Tea Room (if they have one) is called. What do we do about that problem? Leave the changes I made, or make the template recognize bs and sr? Or are there different codes for bs and sr recognized by that template, and which if so? MGorrone (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

This isn't really something we can solve. Indonesian Wiktionary is entirely separate from English Wiktionary, so they have to write and manage their own templates/modules. —Rua (mew) 11:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
(Working link: id:bahasa Belanda --Dan Polansky (talk))
@Dan Polansky: any idea where I could write about this to get this problem solved? Is there a Tea Room on Indo Wikt? MGorrone (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
This link seems to yield recent changes outside of the mainspace, but I am not sure. id:Wiktionary:Warung_kopi seems it could be the Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

be out of the arkEdit

wordreference gives "out of the ark" as a translation of French ringard. Is that a thing? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing you already know this, but it's a reference to Noah's ark, as something that repopulated the planet long ago. Equinox 01:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Rhodesian EnglishEdit

We have a handful of terms like floppy that were used by white Rhodesians, and are still used by them and their descendants in the Rhodesian diaspora, chiefly in South Africa and the UK. I've been labelling them as Zimbabwe, but that's not quite accurate, given that when Zimbabwe replaced Rhodesia, they were no longer used there. Should we have a Category:Rhodesian English to cover this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably yes. Equinox 01:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

pandanus (pandan)Edit

Is the definition correct, or should it be Pandanus amaryllifolius (Wikipedia) instead?

Wikipedia: Pandanus utilis is native to Madagascar, Mauritius, and the Seychelles, whereas Pandanus amaryllifolius is native to South and Southeast Asia.

Wyang (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That's more of a problem with the definition at screw pine, which is almost universally used as a term for the entire genus, and sometimes for related genera. In the context of use for flavor and fragrance, it would be Pandanus amaryllifolius. In the context of use for weaving mats and in Polynesian culture, it would be Pandanus tectorius, and in the context of use as an ornamental/house plant, Pandanus utilis. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the change to screw pine. Should the definition of pandanus be modified too, perhaps to read something like: “Any of the palm-like plants in the genus Pandanus; screw pine.”? Wyang (talk) 12:34, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
If   Pandanaceae on Wikispecies.Wikispecies is to be believed, any tree in the family Pandanaceae is a screw pine. DCDuring (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Appendix:English similesEdit

I'm very tempted to RFD this, as it is redundant with Category:English similes, which is far more complete. The creator of the page himself (User:Paul G) said it was a temporary solution.

I'm loath to do that as long as they are red links in there, but I'm not convinced by the results I'm getting on Google books so I don't dare to create anything. To native speakers: which ones do you vouch for? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm familiar with most of them, but I think the real question is whether they're too SOP to list here or not. Since many of them are common, fixed phrases, that itself might make them worth having. "As phony as a three dollar bill" doesn't take a lot of brain power to decipher, but it is/was a common expression. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
bent as a nine-bob note. If it's absolutely a set phrase, IMO we should have it. You could say "as bent as a seventeen yen note" but nobody does. Equinox 01:01, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

dry potEdit

Can this also be a poker term as Wikipedia suggests? Can someone familiar with it add the relevant sense? Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:48, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Added now. Wyang (talk) 03:20, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:22, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Adding spoken languageEdit

Yesterday, I went to my country's National Library and found a book about the Temiar language and decided to put the Swadesh List of the language here. The book was published on 1961, way back before the formation of Malaysia and before the Malay spelling reform. This language is a spoken language which does not have it's own writing system. The book that I found was a documentation of the language and its people. Then, I encounter an online book of the language which is a Temiar-Malay dictionary published in 2014. The dictionary is just a draft and not a full documentation of the language. These two dictionaries had different spellings and that made me wonder if I should use the newer one instead of the old one. Here's the link for both of it: old (there's no full online archive of the book) or this, and new. --Malaysiaboy (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What we do in cases like this is select a standard orthography for the language to use on Wiktionary. Ideally, that standard will be the one that is most used today when speakers actually write their language, or one that is promoted by a governmental institute and therefore is likely to see the most use in the future. The orthography that is chosen and its equivalents in other orthographies should be placed on an About page, like Wiktionary:About Temiar. Entries in orthographies other than the one chosen as a standard can still be on Wiktionary, but simply as alternative spellings pointing to a main entry in the standard orthography. If you want to see examples or need help with this, feel free to ask me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
In that case, I have to do more research on this then. Thank you! --Malaysiaboy (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


Well, it's Japanese, but it's appearing as an English surname and given name, which I very much doubt. I'm not sure how to give it Japanese labels instead. DonnanZ (talk) 16:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Fixed it. —Globins 19:59, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I thought of that while I was soaking in the bath. Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 20:06, 19 November 2017 (UTC)'


Could someone please add the non-pathology (figurative) sense? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

a-maying is a word but it isn't in the WiktionaryEdit

How can a-maying be added to wiktionary? It's a form of the word "maying" -- celebrating May. It is used by Milton in his poem "L'Allegro". Issacbaird (talk) 01:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that Milton isn't simply referring to collecting flowers, but in any case, we did lack that verb sense, which I have now added at the very bottom of may. Note that the a- part is separable, and therefore the whole of a-maying shouldn't be added. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
"separable"? Do you mean 'It's spelled with a hyphen'? Or is it really separable as relating to separable prefixes and separable verbs (compare for example German abfahren and er fährt ab in which ab is separable)?
Anyway, in both cases it should be a matter of opinion (~> WT:RFD) whether or not an entry a-maying could be created. As for 'spelled with a hyphen' there are also several hypenated terms in Category:English words prefixed with non-, Category:English words prefixed with de-, shaped#Derived terms. And for the other case there is for example abfahren. - 01:46, 21 November 2017 (UTC)


What's the deal with these early citations from the 1940s? According to zine the word wasn't coined until 1965. DTLHS (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

zine and its coinage (in or around 1965?) has nothing to do with with fmz and its coinage (in or around the 1940s?). - 04:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The quote in fmz supposedly from 1943 uses the word "zine". DTLHS (talk) 04:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok. The given link, , has more usages of zine and it's said to be from the Futurian War Digest Oct 1943 Vol: IIII No: I. If the transcription is correct, than zine with as reference as well as aren't correct. The best google book has seem to be sources stating that Futurian War Digest did appear around that time. - 07:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)