Tspielberg

Nepali IPA

Hi! Thanks for your work on Nepali IPA. I was wondering about your choice to use /ʌ/ instead of /ə/ — that seems at odds with our usual practice for Indo-Aryan languages. Also, given that there is no distinction between [a] and [ä] on a phonemic level, why choose /ä/ as the broad transcription? @AryamanA, who worked on the Hindi module. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 15:15, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Mostly, stress plays role in changing the usage of /ə/ and /ʌ/ in Hindi while in Nepali most of the time stress lies at the beginning of first syllable. This might be a reason for using the phoneme /ʌ/, and also /ʌ/ never surfaces as /ə/ mid central vowel accordinɡ to various journals. Regarding using centralized /a/ instead of fronted, I thought we can use more narrower transcription than on Wikipedia' help pages. Btw I have problems making this module; I have no idea how to code, I don't even know if it needs coding or whatnot. Could you please guide me through the process? What exactly does this module do? Kushalpok01 (talk) 15:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge, Kushalpok01: I would be more than happy to help code the module! Generally we take a broader transcription, especially if there's no reason to use the more narrow symbol in the phonemic transcription. (The phonetic transcription in [], on the other hand, is perfectly good for that.) In Hindi, what we transcribe as /ə/ is actually more open, phonetically; from my analysis of my accent, I have something like [ɜ~ɐ] with stressed schwas (as you mentioned) being more open generally. And also, we transcribe [äː] as /ɑː/ in Hindi for simplicity.

I think for phonemic // transcription it is very subjective as to what symbols we use. I tend to think the easiest symbol is best, and for cross-lingual agreement I think using the /ə/ is good for Nepali. Of course, phonetically, if it really is [ʌ], then we should write it like that in a separate narrow transcription. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 16:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, we do have schwa in unstressed syllables phonetically; actually /ʌ/ varies from [ɜ/ɞ] to [ʌ/ɔ].Generally, readers, like me, begins learning phonetics(Especially English phonemes) with English examples, and during the time, they(including me) got used to believing ə(schwa) is used in only unstressed syllable. This is the reason that I feel it's odd and foreigners may mispronounce it. I believe assiɡninɡ अ with /ʌ/ is completely fine in Nepali although being indo-aryan languages.BTW I thought I'd let you know I've managed to build the module:ne-IPA without having knowledge of module building. Though all I did was copying Hindi and Marathi's codes. I just replaced the values with that of Nepali given that not being an intellectual property. I've also had distinction of 'trilled/tap r sound' passed. The toughest part was transliteration of Nepali which didn't seem to show syncopation at the end of word; As Nepali words don't have syncope medially but there are preposition that do invoke it.eg.ki's'ke ki's'ne etc. I had to revise it for multiple times(like hundredth) to get it right. I have all tests(words) passed as of now but I would like you to add more words there(testcases page) which will help me improve the module. If you have suggestions, please let me know. Also, regarding [ä] instead of better transcribed broad /a/, it didn't work and I couldn't change it with my understanding of module building. Kushalpok01 (talk) 10:34, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, have you taken a look? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Just changing [ä] with /a/ doesn't seem to work for some examples. I would like to draw your attention to the examples from testcases page. For example, Rāto couldn't be transliterated the way it should be i.e. /ɾat̪o/. Please review this. Kushalpok01 (talk) 13:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Kushalpok01, Metaknowledge: I'm not sure I understand--are there any more problems in the module? Is the syllabification incorrect? —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 18:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

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Module error in Module:number list/data/ne

There are module errors at एघार and चौध that seem to be from your edit to this module. Please fix either the entries or the module. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 04:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz एघार and चौध are the exceptions of schwa preservation in Nepali. These words must be transliterated with final schwa but the module doesn't seem to display the manual transliteration without showing these(+<>; "schwa invokers") on original script. please review. Kushalpok01 (talk) 05:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ping someone on Edit Summary

Hi Kushal! Hope you're well, especially during these times!

Just wanted to let you know, to ping me on the Edit history, just link my page and I should be notified [[User:Taimoorahmed11]] - I wouldn't have noticed your edit, had I not checked the module myself.

P.s Thanks for working alongside me to create the module, the problems you just fixed for me, I wouldn't known how to! I'm glad that it's finally being made :D

-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 06:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks!

I have managed to build Module:hi-convert which could be used for generation of Urdu spelling of Hindi words. I wish the module be implemented on Hindi headword and module:ur-Arab-Deva on Urdu headword as well.

Here is something that needs to be discussed regarding Module:ur-translit: 1) ‘Ain case- some entries use ain while some don't. Should Ain be treated as alif just like it is at present? Is there some standardization of its transliteration or its pronunciation based on environments? I find ain works just like alif. Could you please clarify? Kushalpok01 (talk) 09:53, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Kushalpok01: Unfortunately there isn't an transliteration standard made specifically for the Urdu script, 'Ain is a really weird letter because it's really ambiguous since it's not pronounced in Urdu which means depending on the position of it and the specific word, it could mean different things. For instance بَعَد (ba'ad) is pronounced as bād but it has a different pronunciation in the word اِعْتِبار (e'tebār) and جُمِعْرات (jumme'rāt), so I'm not really sure what the format is but I will try and research on it.

I've also seen the module:hi-convert & module:ur-Arab-Deva which seem to be working very well but I'm not sure how good the accuracy would be alongside the module:ur-translit since in my mind depending on the script you want to transliterate it to, the word would need more or less diacritics - I don't think it's too big of a problem but it might become a nuisance later on.

P.s, I didn't get a notification, please make sure to use {{reply|Taimoorahmed11}} to alert me.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 03:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

झ़ replaced with श़

Hi Kushal, I hope you´re well. It seems that you´ve been replacing झ़ with श़ and I was quite intrigued, is there any reason behind this since I´ve always understood that the sound ʒ is represented by a झ़ in Devanagari?
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 12:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Because No source(dictionary or other work) says Jha with nuqta would make Zh sound. It's probably chosen by a wiki editor. And jh itself is not close to voiced sh while sh is. Sh with nuqta is more logical than jh. It's not too late changing with a better option because it hasn't been used widely unlike q, x, z and gh; it's all wiki. Kushalpok01 (talk) 12:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

We're a descriptive dictionary, so that isn't enough by itself. Systematic changes should be discussed and have consensus of the community of editors for the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:43, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Never seen श़ in my life, whereas I have encountered झ़ off wiki. Not much work is done on Devanagari orthography so no sources really discuss this (just like they don't talk about ष़, ऩ, etc. which are all rare). I will revert any श़. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Module:IPA-deva

Leaving aside the module error, I'm not sure that this should even exist. The name gives the false impression that this is a module to give pronunciation information for Devanagari-script terms in the International Phonetic Alphabet. Instead, this is a Hindi headword template.

If you're experimenting with Lua, you should start the name with "Module:User:Kushalpok01/" so people don't think this is a module ready for use. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Chuck Entz My apologies. I will make sure I use appropriate page name. Yes, that was me just experimenting. BTW I would like to inform you that Module:languages/data3/k, m,and x talk pages are left unnoticed; Please let me know if there are any problems. Kushalpok01 (talk) 02:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

खनातिनि

Formatting the gender with {{g}} is a messy practice; we really want all that information to be within the headword-line template. Is there a reason you can't add a gender parameter to MOD:ne-utilities? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

घर

Please take a look at this: it has a module error and I have no clue about Nepali gender. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

घर needs no gender; living being nouns have gender in Nepali. Kushalpok01 (talk) 15:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

صفحۂ اول

Hi Kushal!

I wasn't sure to write the IPA because there a couple of ways of saying the word, for instance, pronoucing it literally, which is quite rare as "Safha" is usually pronunced without the h or similar to an aspirated h, so I wasn't really sure how to transcribe it in IPA. Secondly, I'm not I understand what you mean by converting all transliterations to the ALA-LC standard. Do you mean in regards to the module:ur-translit or for words which make use of the "|tr=" parameter? Or is it simply the difference between the current transliteration standard used and the ALA-LC?
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 12:09, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 [brackets] can be used instead of slashes // for voiceless h. Also, I doubt aspiration for f in Urdu is attested, in Nepali affricates are often realized as [ħ]~[ʜ] in many environment but I have not found any source supporting this and can't transcribe it phonetically in wiktionary.

@Kushalpok01 That's fine, I was unsure about putting it in anyways
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 20:05, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

|tr= parameter; you have transliterated these ⟨ح, ث⟩ using ALA-LAC system in safha-e-avval, so I wonder how do you plan on changing(to ḥ) thousands of entries transcribed with h and held up by tr parameter? Manually? Kushalpok01 (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kushalpok01 For the moment, I don't really have any plans to mass-change Urdu lemmas to use the new ALA-LC standard. I have been manually changing the existing lemmas, those that I come across and transliterating new lemmas correctly. I think the best way to go about this would be to would probably to build the module first (I'm sorry to say that I've been a bit reluctant to make it due to preoccupations, but I will hopefully start making it soon) and then remove "|tr=" parameters any lemmas which use the "|head" parameter, and carry on with other filters etc.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 20:05, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Module Errors in Module:ne-IPA-Deva

There are three Nepali entries in CAT:E: उहाँहरूको (uhā̃harūko), कहाँ (kahā̃), and यहाँमा (yahā̃mā). They all seem to have some problem with chandrabindu/˜. Please fix them. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 17:47, 4 December 2021 (UTC)