ShellfaceTheStrange

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Proto-Brythonic pronunciations

We don't know the true pronunciation Proto-Brythonic. The graphemes used are really loose representations. I think the pronunciations added should be deleted. --Gowanw (talk) 20:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This is clearly a larger issue than a single user. There is not a Wiktionary-wide policy on the use of IPA transcriptions for proto-languages (see e.g. Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2021/August#IPA_for_reconstructed_languages for a recent discussion), and we must look no further than Proto-Germanic for an example where the overwhelming majority of pages are given transcriptions. The level of accuracy in phonetic reconstruction that can be achieved for Proto-Brythonic is undoubtedly comparable (at least) to that of Proto-Germanic, so I do not see it as reasonable to argue that pronunciations should not be given for the former language if one were to also accept that they can be given for the latter - which is to say that this issue has a broader scope than individual proto-languages. I will also stress that I am not the first user to add pronunciations to Proto-Brythonic entries, so it seems quite unreasonable that myself in particular should be singled out for doing so. ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 15:57, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

What you're saying makes sense on the surface, but there are a few issues with your argument. Proto-Germanic has enjoyed a great deal of academic research with many published hypothetical pronunciation guides; Proto-Brythonic has not been as lucky. Self-publishing pronunciations without the research to back is up is a bit of an embarrassment. See the various related discussions at Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Brythonic. --Gowanw (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Also tagging @Burgundaz, Rua. --Gowanw (talk) 20:33, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I find your line of reasoning utterly baffling. If you are in need of resources on matters of Brittonic phonology, I would refer you first to Jackson (1953), followed by Schrijver (1995) and (specifically for the vowels) Chapter 6 of McCone (1996).

Again, the issue of pronunciations for proto-languages is an issue of large scope. If you would like to start a discussion on the merits of pronunciations for reconstructed languages, please do so somewhere more appropriate than this page. ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 21:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Since you are the one actively adding pronunciations to PB entries, the burden of evidence is on you. I would recommend constructing a sourced pronunciation guide to include on Wiktionary:About Proto-Brythonic. Unless a universal system of pronunciation can be agreed upon, they should be deleted. --Gowanw (talk) 01:13, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I would sincerely hope that it is not a surprise to learn that I am not, in fact, responsible for anywhere near to all of the 206 pages currently to be found in Category:Proto-Brythonic terms with IPA pronunciation. Moreover, as can be seen from the pages in this category, the "universal system of pronunciation" you are attempting to exact from me already existed long before I myself had ever made any edits on Wiktionary. The totality of what I can at all be taken to be responsible for is that I making (quite sparing) use of the system for IPA transcriptions, whose relationship to the adopted orthography has been plenty elaborated at the About page and its talk page that you have linked to, that was wisely devised by previous editors. Your insistence that this system is somehow my responsibility (through translatio editoris, perhaps?) is flattering but quite misguided, and continuing to hound me about it will not take either of us very far. If you have some issue with the system of IPA transcriptions used for Proto-Brythonic, or with the use of transcriptions for reconstructed languages in general, please do take this up on one of the community pages - or, at least, somewhere other than the talk page of a minor user. Diolch. ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 13:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)