Appendix talk:French doublets

@Per utramque cavernam This is great! I'm definitely stealing this format. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 00:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Thanks! I think it's a big improvement over the category, which is a useful but very crude tool. It allows me to draw several distinctions (for example I've always wanted to have a table of clean, beautiful examples, without cluttering it with rare words or words with uncertain etymologies, etc.). And visually it's much more efficient of course.

Glad to see you've applied it to Hindi, you'll soon be at the vanguard of Hindi linguistics, if that wasn't already the case :p --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: Yeah, this is a far better idea than the doublet categories (which can't even show pairs together). Haha, Hindi linguistics is actually farther along than you would think, there's much much more to be done here for it. Hindu-Urdu actually has more speakers than Spanish (counting L1 and L2), coming in at 3rd on this list, so naturally there is a sizable body of research in it. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 02:18, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Well, sorry if I sounded condescending again :3 it stands to reason that with 500 million speakers there's a lot more material than what I was imagining. Europeans tend to be quite self-centered and cut off from the rest of the world, or maybe it's just me... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:52, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: Oh don't worry about it, at least you know Hindi exists... people always ask me if I speak Indian. A lot of Hindi scholarship is driven by Europeans and Americans actually; it's gotten to the point where I go to the University of Texas's website to get good resources for Old Hindi. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 01:04, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Prefixed verbs

Simplex inherited, prefixed borrowed

• couler, percoler
• couver, incuber
• daigner, indigner
• faucher, défalquer
• goûter, déguster
• plier, appliquer
• pousser, expulser
• priser, apprécier
• sécher, dessiquer (or dessécher / dessiquer?)
• semer, disséminer, inséminer
• souder, consolider
• souffler, insuffler
• suer, exsuder
• venger, revendiquer (back-form)

Simplex borrowed, prefixed inherited

• générer, engendrer
• spolier, dépouiller

Different prefixes

• acharner, incarner
• allumer, illuminer
• avouer, convoquer
• convier, inviter
• écorcher, décortiquer
• engloutir, déglutir
• enseigner, désigner
• entamer, contaminer
• éteindre, distinguer
• supplier, appliquer

Sth else

• feuille, cerfeuil

Pronouns

• il, le

Others

• sigle, sceau
• engeigner, ingénier
• bâiller, bayer, béer
• cuculle, cagoule, coule
• mouvement, moment
• olifant, éléphant
• fouine, faîne
• genèse, gent, gens
• écolâtre, scolastique
• cadre, Old French querre
• cadrer, carrer
• pal, pieu
• flamme (vet instrument), phlébotome
• vitrine, verrine
• junior, gindre/geindre
• paragraphe, paraphe
• madrier, matière, Madère
• farde, hardes
• grive, grec, grièche, grègues
• maître, magistre (a borrowing from Byzantine Greek)
• psautier, psaltérion
• balance, bilan
• mincer, menuiser
• amande, mandorle
• allier, aloyer
• leçon, lection
• soupçon, suspection
• biscotte, biscuit
• glas, classique
• catafalque, échafaud (Old French chafaud)
• trombe, trompe
• emplâtre, plâtre, piastre
• salto (is it from Italian or 1st person from Latin?), saut
• biesse, bête, ?biche
• Maremme, maritime

Verbs with change of conjugation

• cueillir, colliger
• fleurir, florir
• gémir, geindre
• surgir, sourdre

Unsure

• orīginālis: original–originel > "From variants to doublets" or "Borrowed in different periods"?
• fantasticus: fantastique–fantasque

Synchronic

• bancaire*, banquier*
• cavalcade*, chevauchée*
• caleçon*, chausson*
• cinéraire, cendrier*
• circuler, cercler*
• dispense*, dépense
• dispenser, dépenser*
• replier* / reployer*, répliquer

Cleanup

@Erutuon: Hello. I'd like to cleanup this appendix and convert the tables to your template, which I think should work everywhere (except in the "False doublets" section, because of the asterisk).

I've installed User:Erutuon/scripts/cleanup.js but to no avail. Do you think you could add that function, or is too much hassle? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:32, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: I'd removed the script that I used for Appendix:Romance doublets because it was just a one-time thing. I don't know if it'll work for this page, but I've restored it so you can try it. I'd recommend copying the script to Wiktionary:User script sandbox (which requires w:User:Kephir/gadgets/jssand.js) if you want to tinker with it and get it to work. — Eru·tuon 22:12, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Latinisms

@Word dewd544: Hello. I'm starting to think we should make a distinction between regular borrowings such as récupérer, and Latinisms such as crédo; or, to make the contrast even more apparent, between processus and procès, or lapsus and laps.

At first I was tempted to chalk it up to the borrowing vs. learned borrowing distinction (processus and lapsus would be "ultra-learned borrowings"), but I don't think that's correct. The distinction between processus and procès is not a contextual one (i.e. learned vs. vernacular): they're both learned. It is a formal one (i.e. one is Frenchified, the other not)

What do you think? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I can agree with that. How would this be implemented though? A new template and category? My only reservation is having to go back and redo a bunch of entries. But this group seems to be relatively limited in number, actually, so it maybe won't be too bad. Word dewd544 (talk) 15:41, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Word dewd544: Good questions.

For the category name, I think CAT:French Latinisms could be a solution. I suppose there'd also be CAT:Portuguese Latinisms, CAT:Italian Latinisms, etc.

But then, I don't think it's necessarily restricted to Latin (or to Romance languages), so maybe it should be integrated in a systematic way, through the catboiler and templates. I've no idea what we should call it then.

@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, what do you think? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

AFAIC the usual term for the likes of processus is unadapted borrowing/loanword. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 17:49, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. From reading etymological dictionaries in other languages, "Latinism" is sometimes applied broadly for any Latin loan, while other times more strictly to these kinds of words. But you're right they can pertain to any language. Word dewd544 (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, Word dewd544 I've created {{unadapted borrowing}} (shortcut {{ubor}}). I still have to fix the categories though; Category:French unadapted borrowings from Latin doesn't work with autocat, for example. --Per utramque cavernam 20:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

That’s a good idea. I’ll try to do something about the categories. May I suggest adding an entry for unadapted borrowing to the glossary and linking to it instead of linking to unadapted and borrowing separately? — Ungoliant ^(falai) 00:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: Doesn't work yet :(

Yes, I should do that, and improve the description in the categories: at Category:French unadapted borrowings, "French terms that are unadapted loans." is completely unhelpful. But I still haven't found a good way to explain it. --Per utramque cavernam 12:07, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: Just noticed now that it works, thanks a lot!

I've added a line to the glossary ("a loanword that has not been conformed to the morpho-syntactic, phonological and/or phonotactical rules of the target language"; took my inspiration from this) and edited the template as you suggested. Per utramque cavernam 10:53, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

That’s a good definition. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 19:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Sorry for my long absence. Yeah some of the "inherited" terms are... not, most of them being Latin. Well, camp is actually a dialect loan (i.e. Picard). I'm also very suspicious of couple and coupler which violate regular lenition rules affecting VplV clusters in inherited vocab. senestre is likewise suspicious although a spelling pronunciation is plausible (likewise chandelle is a known case of analogy in the suffix). ange is explicitly not inherited per Pope 1934, it is a clergical borrowing; TLFi maintains this [1]. Ditto, église (in this case, loan into Gallo-Romance from church Latin it would seem). repairer is likely not inherited as a complete term either, at best it would appear the -p- is preserved by analogy because of the known prefix re- with some supposed *pair(i)er. papier is another case of a learned loan into late Gallo-Roman or early OF. Cheers. --Calthinus (talk) 23:29, 24 January 2020 (UTC)