Talk:forté

RFV discussion: February 2016–April 2017

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forté

Sources are needed for this accented variant. The word exists in Italian (language typically used for musical dynamic indications) only in its non-accented form, and it is unclear how can one infer the existence of an accent while claiming that it is " used [...] in its abbreviated form f " --Gengis Gat (talk) 21:19, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

If it's attested, I'd call it a misspelling. In fact, I predict this misspelling is more common for forte in the sense of 'strength, talent' than in the musical sense. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've added another sense (with quotations) to the entry, and converted the rfv to an rfv-sense as a result. For the challenged sense, I've only been able to find two citations [1] [2], of which one uses quotation marks and the other uses italics. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 21:50, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

While not being a French speaker, I'd argue that even the use of forté in the sense of "strong" could be considered a (possibly common) misspelling, as the word does not exist in French. After a quick search in various online dictionaries I was only able to find it in the Urban Dictionary, which I guess is not an authoritative source. Anyway, I am only sure of my opinions for what concerns the musical meaning. (Disclaimer: I've come here because of today's xkcd comic). --Gengis Gat (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I found a third quote: [[3]]. In addition, there are a few that are the same basic idea, but not really an adjective: [This] is a noun, [[4]] simply calls it a musical term, and [[5]] describes a stop on an organ. Kiwima (talk) 00:43, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 19:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

RFV discussion: June–July 2018

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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forté

This spelling of the noun ('forte' as 'forté') is not an alternative spelling. It is a misspelling. — This unsigned comment was added by 2602:306:c468:6fc0:c0a:306c:24c9:68f8 (talk).

It already has three citations. Is there something wrong with them? —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, what's wrong with the three citations is that they have a misspelling in them. I can find three thousand citations for "definately", but it's still a misspelling. Is there any English dictionary other than Wiktionary that includes this misspelling? Should I perhaps try to find an English usage guide that discusses this misspelling? — This unsigned comment was added by 2602:306:c468:6fc0:c0a:306c:24c9:68f8 (talk).

We do have an entry for definately, as we do for other common misspellings. Information from usage guides would be helpful in working on the entry. I don't think it should be deleted, though—unlike "definately" and most other misspellings, "forté" is not a careless error but rather a deliberate choice on the part of the writer to include an accent. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:21, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

It almost feels like they are using the accent to signal the syllable (as opposed to magic e), like in blessèd. However, I'm not sure about the "deliberate choice" argument: we can't tell what the writer thought, and it's extremely plausible for somebody who knows similar-sounding foreign words (café, cliché etc.) to think that the accent is actually correct. My suggestion would be to use the "misspelling" template for this entry. Equinox ◑ 01:26, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Here it should be pointed out that many usage guides stigmatize the two-syllable pronunciation as an ignorant error. Even some of those that allow a two-syllable pronunciation insist that only the first syllable may be stressed. — This unsigned comment was added by 2602:306:c468:6fc0:c0a:306c:24c9:68f8 (talk).

I agree that misspellings should have entries. My point is that this spelling is not an alternative spelling, but a misspelling. Just as the entry for "definately" labels it as a misspelling, likewise the entry for "forté" as a noun should label it as a misspelling. — This unsigned comment was added by 2602:306:c468:6fc0:c0a:306c:24c9:68f8 (talk).

I don't mind labeling it a misspelling. I'm just arguing that it should be kept. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's a misspelling, per se, because as Mx Granger says, it seems deliberate. Users may even correctly realize it's French and assume it's supposed to have the accent like résumé. {{lb|en|nonstandard}} {{alternative spelling of}}, perhaps? But I'm not opposed to labelling it a misspelling, either. It would be helpful, in deciding what to do, if any other authorities/dictionaries either proscribe or otherwise recognize this. In any case, let's add a usage note to refer users to the main usage note at forte. (Also possibly split the entry by etymology...) - -sche (discuss) 02:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Here's Garner's Modern English Usage (4th ed.), mostly discussing the pronunciation issue but with a brief closing remark on the misspelling "forté":

forte (= a person's strong point) has long been thought to be preferably pronounced with one syllable, like fort. That's because the word is originally French (in which fort means "strong," corruptly made with a feminine -e suffix) and is so pronounced. But most speakers of AmE use the two-syllable version (/for-tay/), probably under the influence of the Italian forte, a two-syllable word referring to a musical notation to play or sing loudly. Though it might have been nice to keep the two words separate in pronunciation, that hasn't happened—and the two-syllable version can no longer be condemned. What can be condemned is the pretentious pronunciation /for-tay/ and the occasional use of an acute accent on the -e.

As for the issue of deliberateness, I'm not sure what relevance it has to its being a misspelling. People deliberately write "wierd" because they mistakenly believe that "wierd" is the correct spelling of the word, but it's still a misspelling. The band Def Leppard deliberately chose to misspell their band name, but it's still a misspelling. And if I deliberately write "finalé" instead of "finale" due to mistaken beliefs about its correct spelling, it's still a misspelling. Finally, and in any case, I've checked the OED, Merriam-Webster, and American Heritage, and none of them even mention "forté" as a possible spelling. 2602:306:C468:6FC0:C0A:306C:24C9:68F8 03:10, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

That's very helpful; thank you! I've relabelled it a misspelling. - -sche (discuss) 21:41, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Small comment: a normalized orthography is not a misspelling in a descriptive dictionary. It may be a misspelling in a prescriptive or proscriptive context. - Amgine/ ^t·e 21:46, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

RFV-resolved Kiwima (talk) 21:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)