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Again, welcome! Ultimateria (talk) 01:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

fartaton etc.Edit

How did you determine that these were created in error; did you confer with their creator? Or do you just mean that you believe them to be wrong? —RuakhTALK 05:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The entries were created automatically by User:MewBot from the conjugation template on farti. The template was for a transitive verb, so forms like "fartaton" were created. But "farti" is an intransitive verb, so these forms are actually impossible.Mr. Granger (talk) 12:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I see now: you posted in the Tea room, and CodeCat (talkcontribs) suggested you add {{delete|created in error}}. I don't think that's good advice in general — I think {{delete|created in error}} should be reserved for cases where the actual creator says, "Oops, I created that by mistake", rather than cases where a random person decides (however justly) that it shouldn't have been created — but in this case CodeCat is the owner of the bot in question, so I guess it works out. (And of course, it's not a big deal to begin with.) —RuakhTALK 05:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay. Just so I know for the future, if I run into more pages like these, how would you recommend I label them? Mr. Granger (talk) 04:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


Does moviĝo only cover sense #1 of movement? I think we can and should do a lot better then most printed bilingual dictionaries in not using single, highly polysemous, English words to define Esperanto words.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that's a good point. (As it happens, moviĝo refers to physical movement; movado refers to social change.) I'll try to remember to specify with words like these. Mr. Granger (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Pinyin of 一个Edit

Even though it may not be pronounced with the full tone, it is still spelt “yīgè” in dictionaries, like Yellow Bridge. 〜britannic124 (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems you're right about that. All the same, I'm going to add "yīge" as a second pronunciation, because it really is said with a neutral tone. Mr. Granger (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes we really do need some standard way to include both "dictionary tones" and post-sandhi tones for multisyllablic Chinese entries. — hippietrail (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, the tone sandhi is a separate issue. If it were up to me, we would write "yíge", with the tone sandhi, but for some reason our policy in WT:About Chinese#Tone sandhi is to ignore tone sandhi when writing pinyin. I actually don't understand the rationale behind that at all - do you?
For neutral tones, I'm not sure what to do. I sort of think it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, because there are some words (like 我们) that always have a neutral tone, and others (though I can't think of one at the moment) that can have either a full tone or a neutral tone. And there are some words (like 孙子) that have different meanings depending on whether it's a full tone or a neutral tone. Mr. Granger (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


Hi Mr. Granger,

I do think your rollback on Forseti was in error, the claim that Forseti would be mythological is a w:POV, perhaps a widely shared POV amongst followers of the god of genocide, but still a POV. Reverting it, giving a reason for the revert, is OK. Abusing your extra powers to force a certain religion, is not OK. -- 21:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Here are my reasons for reverting your edit:
  1. Most English speakers know what Norse mythology is, so the context label "Norse mythology" helps clarify what the term "Forseti" refers to. The term "Ásatrú" is much less well-known, and the definition "(Ásatrú) The god of justice" is unlikely to help most readers understand the meaning of "Forseti".
  2. Based on Wikipedia as well as my own experience, it is much more common to refer to Forseti as a Norse god than as an Ásatrú god.
  3. Your removal of the word "Æsir" left the definition appearing to assert that Forseti is the god of justice, rather than simply the god of justice within one particular religion. The original definition does not make any assertion about the existence or nonexistence of Forseti; it merely categorizes Forseti within the same group of gods as Odin, Nanna, Thor, and so on.
  4. Category:en:Norse mythology seems to be Wiktionary's standard way of categorizing words for Norse gods, and I don't see that there's any good reason to treat "Forseti" otherwise.
Mr. Granger (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Those aren't reasons to use rollback in my (not so) humble opinion.
Forseti isn't just a Norse god (he's known southwards), but most of all, Ásatrú is less mythological than, say, Christianity or US exceptionalism. You may disagree, and that's a good reason to start a discussion (even, perhaps, after reverting my edit), but it's not a reason to abuse your special rights. -- 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
On your points
  1. You seem to assume your surroundings are "most English speakers". -- 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  2. How do you distinguish Æsir and Ásatrú when used attributively? Forseti isn't an Æsir god, he's an Áss. -- 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  3. I did not, I gave the context "Ásatrú". Your version uses mythology, which is a strong claim of non-existence in those versions of English that I know of. -- 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  4. That's just "following the lemmings", not a good reason to use rollback. -- 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Please calm down. Perhaps you're used to Wikipedia where rollback is less often used; here, because of the low number of rollbackers, we use it often. The label 'Norse mythology', which seems to be your prime bone of contention, is perfectly valid. It's not a truth or value judgement; it's merely to help people understand the context of the word without having to do further research. Other mythology-specific contextual terms are not helpful here, as they force the reader to look up the terms elsewhere, which rather defeats the point. And to be honest we are not interested in debating any of the various topics you reference. Cheers! Hyarmendacil (talk)
I think I am calm. I also think that using "Norse mythology" vs. "Christianity" or "Judaism" is a value judgement. Abrahamist mythology is, like Ásatrú, just a bunch of myths (as in "commonly-held but false belief, a common misconception"). -- 14:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
"Æsir god" just looks strange, there is no god of the Æsir, the Æsir are gods (or not, if one is free of those superstitions). Ehmm, I mean strange like PIN number looks strange if one knows what PIN is. -- 14:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Populous, edzinoEdit

Please don't delete meanings just because you haven't heard of them. There'd be no point in a dictionary if it only contained what we already knew. A check of GBooks, including linguistic refs, is enough to show 'populous' is a common way to speak of languages with many speakers. In fact, apart from paraphrases like the one I just gave, it's the only unambiguous way of saying it that I'm aware of.

As for e·dzi·no, /dz/ is a single consonant and so shouldn't be divided, any more that naǔa would be syllabicized *na·ǔa. Actually, maybe it should just be edzi·no, depending on whether you allow a single letter to be separated in hyphenation. kwami (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for listing that source for 'edzino'. Interesting that /dz/ is analyzed as a single consonant.
As for 'populous', Google Books gets 26 hits for "populous language" compared to more than 1,000 hits for "populous country" - this suggests to me that "populous language" is not a particularly representative example of how the word is used, and probably shouldn't be used in our example sentence. (As for another way to phrase a sentence like that, I would say "widely spoken language", which also gets over 1,000 GBooks hits.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 07:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
"Widely spoken" means something different. English, Spanish, and French are each more widely spoken than Chinese, but Chinese is more populous than all three of them put together. Some people say "most spoken", but that somehow sounds incorrect to me; I keep thinking compared to what, "most written"? "most signed"? Languages have "speaking populations", which I suspect is how "populous" comes in. You may be right about it not being a good example, but on the other hand I didn't want to leave people thinking it only had that narrow range of people in a geological area, even if that's how it's mostly used. But it's not really a separate meaning, either, so I didn't want to create a separate entry. Not sure if religions are described the same way. But edit as you see fit; I won't revert again.
People often assume that dz is two consonants because Zamenhof said Esperanto is 'one letter–one sound', but it isn't really. /dz/ and the diphthongs are exceptions; /dz/ was probably just not common enough to bother creating a new letter, especially since it's spelled dz way in most European languages. You can tell from how he compounds things that he had – or at least expected others to have – various kinds of assimilation, so for example b d g z become p t k s before p t k s, and vice versa, and v would probably become ŭ at the end of a syllable, so you have to say lavo-baseno, because *lavbasena would be a homophone for laŭbasena. That all contradicts the "one letter–one sound" principal. The phonology is awfully close to Belorusian, which does these kinds of things. kwami (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Huh. That's so interesting. Does the Plena Analiza Gramatiko have all this phonological information? Or if not, is there another work you can point me towards? And just out of curiosity, do you know of any other morphemes in Esperanto (besides edz) that have the /dz/ sound? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 07:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, the PAG discusses how /dz/ is a single phoneme but the letter j has two values (as a consonant /j/ and an element /i̯/ of vocalic diphthongs).
There's adzo "adze", but other than edzo it's a rather rare sound. You find it sometimes in proper nouns. BTW, AFAIK d+z would still be a sequence, just as ts isn't the same as c. kwami (talk) 09:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Trimming citesEdit

Feel free to trim cites at main entry page, but please retain all cites at Citations:fucking machine so as to be a more expansive page for archival purposes. Thank you, -- Cirt (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

All right, I'll leave them be, but I think it's utterly silly to have four citations that are all unambiguously referring to the same URL. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:09, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


Why have you removed my edit (transcription)?

The source I have used: http://lexin.nada.kth.se/lexin/#searchinfo=both,swe_swe,fem; It clearly shows: fem [fem:] (long "m")

The transcription used in that dictionary is not IPA. They use å in it, for example, which isn't an IPA character. So the length mark might mean something very different from what it does in IPA, they probably have their own conventions for it. —CodeCat 18:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
To see how IPA transcriptions are used for Swedish on Wiktionary, see Appendix:Swedish pronunciation. —CodeCat 18:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, it's clear that they do not use IPA. I just checked their conventions. The meaning of the "colon" is explained: http://lexin.nada.kth.se/lexin/#main=3;searchinfo=both,swe_swe,sex; "Längd Långt ljud betecknas med kolon omedelbart efter det långa ljudet, t.ex. skalla [²sk'al:a] och skala [²sk'a:la]" (Long audio designated colon immediately after the long sound, such as score [²sk'al:a] and scale [²sk'a:la]). So, sounds like a length sign.
But the length is not a phonemic difference in Swedish. It's "automatic", a consonant after a short vowel is automatically lengthened. So it's really only the vowel length that matters, and that's the only length that should be indicated I think. —CodeCat 19:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree. w:Swedish phonology#Phonotactics has some information that looks relevant. As a side note, the IPA symbol for length is ː, not a colon. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The broad transcription of the story doesn't have long consonants, but the narrow one does. I think Wiktionary follows the same rule, at least the appendix has the same transcriptions. —CodeCat 19:23, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Makes sense, thank you. I think this issue could be closed.


Why did you revert my edit? Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Because the information you added, while perhaps appropriate for an encyclopedic article about literacy, did not constitute additional definitions of the term "literate". If you feel that the shades of meaning of "basic" and "functional" literacy are important, I suggest incorporating that information into the Wikipedia article Literacy, or adding a quotation, usage example, or maybe a usage note that illustrates their use. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


I didn't make that up. See the entry of L&S: "As the pass. of perdo, only pereo, perditus, perire appear to be in good use.—The only classical example of a pass. form in the pres. is: “perditur haec inter misero lux non sine votis,” Hor. S. 2, 6, 59". The same holds for vendo - veneo, or facio - fio. facior, facitur would easily be attestable by Google Books as well; that doesn't mean they are correct.

I also read this on a forum: "Well with some of them (based on the reasearches) we really can securely say that for example: perdor, perderis, perditur, perdimur, perdimini, perduntur or "vendor, venderis... etc" seem strange to a classical Roman who would consciously use a synonym in that kind of construction.

So you are right: the passives are not missing (and there are few attested examples for "perditur" (for instance) ), but there was a real existing tendency not to use them in the place where they are semantically expected."

I think that for a language as Latin, which is not anybody's native language, we should really stick with the correct forms, or the attested mistaken forms. The mistakes we, moderns, make, were not necessarily made by Romans. --Fsojic (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so here's how I interpret the situation (correct me if I'm wrong): It looks like the passive forms of perdo were not often used by the Romans (although they must have been sometimes, given the quote from Horace). But at some point in history people started using them - medieval Latin, I guess. Because they're attestable, we should have entries for them, but probably with a usage note in the entry for perdo explaining the situation. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


Hi. I wanted to ask you about the usage note you added. Are you sure that what you said about the RAE position is accurate? It does not sound right to me. The word guión is only one syllable, which is why the accent is redundant. Previously, guión was accented because (as I understand it) of the last three letters, -ión, which heretofore had always to be accented (acción, avión)...or else because the last two letters, -ón, had always been accented (cajón, rayón). This made the unaccented guion look odd, incomplete. But (as I understand it) it was decided that, in keeping with pure logic, the single-syllable guion did not need an accent because the accent has no effect. I’m not suggesting that you’re mistaken, I’m just check to see if you’re sure, because it does not seem reasonable that guión would ever be pronounced as two syllables. If it were two syllables, it would need to be spelled guiyón. —Stephen (Talk) 11:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure, but I think my usage note is accurate. I'm going off of this source, which says:

Como consecuencia de la aplicación de estas convenciones, un grupo limitado de palabras que tradicionalmente se habían escrito con tilde por resultar bisílabas (además de ser agudas terminadas en -n, -s o vocal) en la pronunciación de buena parte de los hispanohablantes —los que articulan con hiato las combinaciones vocálicas que contienen—, pasan a considerarse monosílabas a efectos de acentuación gráfica, conforme a su pronunciación real por otra gran parte de los hispanohablantes —los que articulan esas mismas combinaciones como diptongos o triptongos—, y a escribirse, por ello, sin tilde, ya que los monosílabos no se acentúan gráficamente, salvo los que llevan tilde diacrítica.

Las palabras afectadas por este cambio son formas verbales como crie, crio, criais, crieis y las de voseo crias, cria (de criar); fie, fio, fiais, fieis y las de voseo fias, fia (de fiar); flui, fluis (de fluir); frio, friais (de freír); frui, fruis (de fruir); guie, guio, guiais, guieis y las de voseo guias, guia (de guiar); hui, huis (de huir); lie, lio, liais, lieis y las de voseo lias, lia (de liar); pie, pio, piais, pieis y las de voseo pias, pia (de piar); rio, riais (de reír); sustantivos como guion, ion, muon, pion, prion, ruan y truhan; y ciertos nombres propios, como Ruan y Sion.

Aunque la ortografía de 1999, donde se establecieron las citadas convenciones, prescribía ya la escritura sin tilde de estas palabras, admitía que los hablantes que las pronunciasen como bisílabas pudiesen seguir acentuándolas gráficamente. En cambio, a partir de la edición de 2010, se suprime dicha opción, que quiebra el principio de unidad ortográfica, de modo que las palabras que pasan a considerarse monosílabas por contener este tipo de diptongos o triptongos ortográficos deben escribirse ahora obligatoriamente sin tilde.

So unless I'm misunderstanding, which is possible, there are indeed speakers who pronounce guion as two syllables, but the RAE recommends writing it without the accent anyway, to promote "unidad ortográfica". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it says that some speakers add extra time (mora timing) to the initial vowel so that what is supposed to be monosyllabic (1 mora) takes twice as long, equivalent to two syllables. But these words have always been considered to be one syllable (or if part of a longer word, a single syllable), and pronouncing them longer was improper (except in some cases of poetry or song where the metrics required more time...as in "vaya con Di-os, mi vida"). This only came up as an argument when in 1999 they recommended dropping that accent mark since these were monosyllables. That’s when some people started claiming that they could be bisyllabic for some speakers, and that those speakers should be allowed to continue writing the accent. What they say now is that these were always monosyllables, and pronouncing them longer is wrong (except as noted above), and that dropping the acute is compulsory.
So I think your usage note gives far too much weight to the idea that these syllables were ever considered bisyllabic. They were not, they were always monosyllabic, and some people just mispronounce them. The reason that the accent is now required to be removed is that the syllables are monosyllabic (and it does not indicate a change in pronunciation, since they have always been monosyllabic). —Stephen (Talk) 13:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I see. But the source I linked doesn't say that the two-syllable pronunciation is incorrect—it says, "Esta convención es puramente ortográfica, por lo que no implica, en modo alguno, que los hablantes deban cambiar la manera en que pronuncian naturalmente estas voces, sea con hiato o con diptongo." So it seems reasonable to me to indicate that the RAE currently acknowledges that there are some speakers who pronounce the words with two syllables, no? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I think your usage notes gives much too much weight to that idea. A lot of people will give it extra timing, but it is not considered correct and is not taught in schools. In school you will learn that these words are monosyllabic, cannot be divided into more syllables, and you learn the proper spelling. Nobody is taught that you can pronounce longer, but some people, especially foreign students, will take it upon themselves to do it anyway. The usage note should not even mention having two syllables. If there is a note at all, it should only stress that it is a single syllable and cannot be divided. Pronunciation has not changed. The only that that has changed is that, since the word is monosyllabic (as it has always been), the accent is superfluous and now must be removed. —Stephen (Talk) 14:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm uncomfortable completely omitting the mention of the two-syllable pronunciation, considering that the RAE acknowledges that some native speakers use it. How does something like this look to you?
"This spelling is deprecated by the Real Academia Española, whose position as of 2010 is that the proper pronunciation of guion is as one syllable, and even speakers who pronounce the word as two syllables should write it without an accent."
Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I think it lends legitimacy to the two-syllable argument, and guión was never considered to be two syllables by anyone. It has always been considered to be one indivisible syllable. The two-syllable argument is something that a small number of people thought up fifteen years ago to try to preserve the old spelling, and even then it was never a serious argument, and the two-syllable faction would not have accepted an official decision to actually consider it two syllables and therefore subject to hyphenation at gui-ón. It was not really considered by anyone to be two syllables; they were only arguing that for some people the IPA would be /gion/ instead of /gjon/. I that it is a big mistake to suggest that it is two syllables and I would not mention the phrase "two syllables" anywhere. I don’t see that it needs a usage note at all, but if you have to have one, then I would only say that some speakers pronounce it /gion/ instead of /gjon/, and that the acute accent is no longer permitted, since it has no effect on the pronunciation. —Stephen (Talk) 12:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I'll trust you on this. I've removed the usage note. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong, User:Stephen G. Brown. Words such as "guion", "fiar" and others are pronounced in two syllables by most speakers in Spain and regions of Latin America. This is not a mistaken pronunciation, just a dialectal variation. At the same time, "cliente" is pronounced in three syllables, but "diente" in two. "Guion", "fie", "hui", etc. are considered to be composed of only one syllable solely for orthographic purposes. Please see:

http://prosodia.upf.edu/home/arxiu/publicacions/cabre/cabre_exceptional_hiatuses_spanish.pdf -- 23:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


I created this template for Esperanto words. It can automatically detect the part of speech based on the ending, and shows the appropriate inflections and categories. —CodeCat 18:57, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Wonderful! —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:22, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

eo-form ofEdit

I removed the attention category from this for now as it doesn't really work with terms containing multiple inflected words. It might be improved using Lua, like {{eo-head}}. —CodeCat 14:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


Good evening, is there some speakers who pronounce [ˈbæskɛt] ? 00:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

It's possible, especially if they were hyperarticulating. I don't think I've ever heard that pronunciation, though. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
[ˈbæskɛt] is considered as an incorrect pronunciation ? 23:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure it would be understood, but I think it would probably sound unnatural or be indicative of a foreign accent. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

In American English, the word service is often pronounced [ˈsɚvɪs] or [ˈsɚvəs] ? 20:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈsɚvəs] sounds slightly more natural to me, but I'm not entirely sure. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word fête in English please ? 21:01, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather leave that to someone more familiar with the word—I'm not sure I've ever heard someone say fête out loud. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word tulip please ? Because the pronunciation of this word is absent in Wiktionary. 21:10, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I'll put that on my to-do list and get to it sometime in the next couple of days. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
  DoneMr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you ! Did you pronounce as [ˈtuːləp] ? 12:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
But [ˈtuː.lɪp] is more standard ? 13:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I think I would only pronounce [ˈtuː.lɪp] if I were emphasizing the word, as in "No, I didn't want a rose—I asked for a tulip!" —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs)
But the word gossip can be pronounced either [ˈɡɒsɪp] or [ˈɡɒsəp] ? 14:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that sounds right to me. I think the /ɪ/ in tulip behaves similarly to the /ɪ/ in gossip. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

But I hear [ˈɡɑsɪp] here. 15:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Probably because I was pronouncing the word in isolation.
Speakers (myself included) are often pretty bad at consciously describing how they pronounce words. I think you'll probably get more useful information by searching for the words "gossip" and "tulip" on Youtube and listening to how people pronounce them in videos there. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The word napkin is always pronounced [ˈnæpkɪn], never [ˈnæpkən] ? 16:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈnæpkɪn] sounds more natural to me, but [ˈnæpkən]/[ˈnæpkn̩] isn't jarring. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is [træz] or [traɪ̯z] ? 23:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds closer to [traɪ̯z] to me, although the second consonant isn't a [r], and I think there's a vowel after the [z]. Maybe [tʁaɪ̯zə]? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
But the [ə] is very short. 00:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it is. So maybe [tʁaɪ̯zᵊ]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is hard to know that it's [sœɡõdæχ] or [sœɡõdɐɛ̯χ]. 00:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. If I had to guess, I'd guess the latter, but I'm really bad at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:40, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This one is it clear ? "Tate" or "tight" ? 00:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like [taɪt] to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word tête-à-tête [ˌteɪɾəˈteɪt] please ? 16:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but as with fête, I'd rather leave that to someone more familiar with the word. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word cabin please ? Please pronounce [ˈkʰæbɪn]. 16:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to take requests if you're going to tell me how to pronounce words. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Because you want to pronounce it with your accent ? 16:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word sung please ? Because it's absent in Wiktionary. 17:10, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

  Done. You know there's a template {{rfap}} for this kind of thing, right? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

But this recording is not clear. 17:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean that the audio quality is poor, or that it's difficult to tell what sounds I'm articulating? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:07, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
The audio quality is poor.
Sorry. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is it really [ˈdaɪɛt] ? 18:23, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds more like [ˈdajɪt] to me, but I don't know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely not [ˈdajɪt], but [ˈdaɪɛt] or [ˈdaɪe̞t] are possible. 19:37, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The first syllable is clearly [tã], but the second syllable is [peɪ̯t] or [pæɪ̯t] ? 00:48, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's [peɪ̯t]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe [pɐɪ̯t] ? 01:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe. (Like I said, I'm not very good at distinguishing vowels by ear.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Can the word welcome be pronounced [ˈwɛlkɐm] ? 12:52, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

The standard pronunciation is /ˈwɛlkəm/, but /ˈwɛlkʌm/ is wrong ? 20:27, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is no difference between /ˈwɛlkəm/ and /ˈwɛlkʌm/ in standard American English. My understanding is that there is no /ə/ phoneme (at least in American English): [ə] is just a realization of phonemes such as /ʌ/ in unstressed syllables. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:27, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • [sɐm] :
  • [ˈheə̯nsəm] :

Do you hear a difference ? 22:40, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
So, /ʌ/ and /ə/ are different. 00:08, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
No. The /ʌ/ in handsome is unstressed, whereas the /ʌ/ in some is stressed—as a result, they are articulated differently. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:12, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The word visit is generally pronounced [ˈvɪzɪt] or [ˈvɪzət] ? 00:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈvɪzət] sounds slightly more natural to me, but [ˈvɪzɪt] is not jarring. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Is there some Americans who pronounce the name Fung as [fʊŋ] ? 00:17, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of any English words with the sequence /ʊŋ/, so I wonder if it might be phonotactically prohibited. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Can the word careful be pronounced [ˈkɛɹfʊl] ? 00:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I pronounce the word [ˈkeəɹfl̩], with a syllabic [l]. For some reason, my computer is displaying the diacritic under the f instead, but it's supposed to be under the l. My dialect has the Marry-merry-Mary merger, so I don't know how speakers of other dialects pronounce the first syllable. And I'm not really sure what other speakers do with the second syllable. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The word dictionary is pronounced [ˈdɪkʃənɛɹi] or [ˈdɪkʃəneəɹi] ? 00:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

For me, [ˈdɪkʃəneəɹi]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The word tight is pronounced [taɪ̯t] or [tɐɪ̯t] ? 13:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Depends on the speaker, although [taɪ̯t] is more common in the United States. I think I say [tɐɪ̯t], or something like it, but like I said, I'm bad at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • [taɪ̯t] :
  • [tɐɪ̯t] :

Can you hear a difference ? 14:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I'm not sure which one is closer to my pronunciation. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
The word tête is pronounced [tɛt] in French of France, but [taɪ̯t] in Quebec French. 16:10, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

You hear [ˈfɔɹəst] or [ˈfɔɹɛst] ? 16:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈfɔɹɛst] —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
[ˈfɔɹɛst] is existent ? 16:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Apparently so. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Goodness can be also pronounced [ˈɡʊdnɛs] ? 17:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I've heard [ˈɡʊdnɪs] and [ˈɡʊdnəs], but not [ˈɡʊdnɛs]. 15:12, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The word chicken is generally pronounced [ˈtʃɪkɪn] or [ˈtʃɪkən] ? 17:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think both pronunciations are common. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

arbitrary section breakEdit

Message [ˈmɛseɪdʒ] is surely wrong ? 21:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I've never heard that pronunciation, and it's very jarring to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The word on is often pronounced [ɑn] or [ɒn] ? 22:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think [ɑn] is rare. 22:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it varies by speaker. But why are you asking me all these questions? I know the IPA and I'm a native speaker, but I'm no phonologist. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Because I just want to know how to pronounce it in American English, but I live in Montreal. 22:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I know the IPA by heart ? How to pronounce [ɹ] and [ɻ] ? I don't hear the difference between [ɹ] and [ɻ]. 23:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Fortunately, [ɹ] and [ɻ] are completely interchangeable in American English, with many speakers pronouncing something in between the two. The best advice I can give you is that [ɻ] is pronounced with the tip of your tongue pointed nearly straight up, whereas [ɹ] is pronounced with the tip of your tongue pointed at or below your alveolar ridge. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

This one is [ɹɛd] or [ɻɛd] ? 23:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

My best guess is [ɻɛd], but I don't really know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
My younger brother has effaced your sentence. 15:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Mmk, no worries. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's [ivaɪ̯χ] ? 16:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like it to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Not [ivæχ]? 16:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. It could be. Like I said, I'm not very good at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:11, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you already heard someone pronounce the word lung as [lɔŋ] ? 20:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Not that I can think of. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So, this pronunciation is [ɫʌŋ], [ɫɐŋ] or [ɫɔŋ] ? 21:06, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's [ɡɔt̚] ? 21:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Either that or [ɡʌt̚], I think. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Generally, the phoneme /ʌ/ realizes to [ɐ] ? 23:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I was taught to transcribe the sound of a stressed /ʌ/ as [ʌ] and an unstressed /ʌ/ as [ə] in American English. The exact quality varies by dialect. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

But I hear [kʰɐt] with the sound [ɐ] here. 01:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Could be. Like I said, the exact quality of the vowel varies by dialect. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
It's pronounced [ɐ] in your accent ? 01:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I think it's closer to [ʌ], but I don't really know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Do you know the difference of [ʌ] and [ɐ] ? [ʌ] is close to [ɜ], and [ɐ] is close to [a]. 13:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I know the difference. I'm just not very good at identifying vowels by ear, including in my own speech. One of these days I should record myself saying a stressed /ʌ/ and look at the spectrogram to see what it is. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • French accent :
  • Canadian accent :

The difference is obvious ? 15:08, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • French accent :
  • Canadian accent :

This difference is obvious too ? 15:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although less conspicuous than for guêpe. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


Do you hear a difference ? 15:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Huh? These look like music videos. What am I supposed to be distinguishing between? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The pitch of the music is difference ? 20:21, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Why are you asking me this? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Because I just want to know if you know the musical keys. The first version is in F-sharp major, and the second version is in F major. 20:30, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I see. Well, I can't identify keys by ear. I don't have much musical training.
I've been answering a lot of questions from you, and I'm not really interested in doing so anymore. If you have requests for pronunciation information or audio recordings to be added to articles, feel free to ask me (or better yet, use {{rfp}} and {{rfap}}), but otherwise I won't be responding anymore. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I will put {{rfp}} where ? 20:42, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Please see mayonnaise. 12:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The US recording of mayonnaise is not there. 13:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the recording ! 13:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


Hello, I hear a "boom" at the end" in the file, can you remove it please ? 21:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


Hello, can you record the name Wilson please ? 23:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you ! 00:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the words kite, thank you, Halloween and tempest please ? 16:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you can be pronounced as [ˈt̪ɛ̃ŋkjuː] in informal speech ? 01:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

[ˈt̪æŋkjuː] is incorrect ? 00:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


Hi, can you record the word author, smoothie, dentist and call please ? Because I would like to know Californian accent. Thank you in advance. 21:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Coast MiwokEdit

Hello, I saw you created ʔúlki in Coast Miwok. You added as reference the Bodega Miwok Dictionary by Callaghan, Catherine A. Do you still have this dictionary with you. I would be interested to know the translation of "water" in this language? If it is possible to get this information, could you also provide me the exact reference for this translation (the page where the translation is given)? Thank you in advance. Pamputt (talk) 12:07, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't have the dictionary with me, but I'll write myself a note to look up the word for water next time I go to the library (probably in a week or two). —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:39, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I ask you that because I started to find the translation of the word "water" in all the languages (and the translation in Coast Miwok is missing). I know you already have a such list but the difference with "mine" is I try to find a reference for each translation. To do that, I create the article in that language and I add a reference for it. I di not count precisely bu I think I got around 3000 translations of "water" :D. I will have one more with your help ;D Pamputt (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
@Pamputt The Coast Miwok word for "water" is líwa, found on page 45 of the Bodega Miwok Dictionary by Catherine A. Callaghan. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I added it also on the French Wiktionary. That said, it is a bit surprising because this word also exists in Lake Miwok and means "to be deep" (speaking about water). Moreover, I already found the translation in the languages of the same language family and the word for water is a bit different compared to that one (Plains Miwok: kiˑk, Bay Miwok: kiko, Southern Sierra Miwok: kikˑy-, Central Sierra Miwok: kíkˑy-, Northern Sierra Miwok: kikˑy-) Pamputt (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
That seems suspicious, but assuming you used the dictionary correctly, I don't think we can corroborate it. Just about all of the books I have at my disposal on Miwok lects are by Catherine Callaghan, and I suspect it's the same for you, so I think we're forced to trust her. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
It is a bit weird. Callaghan gives the following etymology: "From PMiw [Proto-Miwok] *líwa 'deep, water.'" She also lists a number of Coast Miwok compound words that include líwa, such as ʔómu líwa ("whiskey", literally "bad water") and ʔúpuh líwa ("bath water"), which suggest that it's probably not a typo or similar error. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


How did you find those great citations? I'm in the process of adding -phyte words, and was unable to find good citations for the following:


I would love to know the methods by which you found those citations. See here for discussion. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 01:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi JohnC5. Here's how I found them: I searched for "aletophyte" and for "aletophytes" (in quotation marks) on Google Books, Google Scholar, and Google Groups. (Google Groups isn't usually very helpful for academic terms like these, but you never know.) I tried this method for a couple of the words in that list, though, and I couldn't find anything—they really look unattestable. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:53, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Very cool. Google books I use all the time, but I had not thought of Google Scholar or Groups for trying to find attestations. I'll start using these in the future. Thanks! —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 02:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


The way that I worded that wasn't meant to be condescending, but nevertheless I prefer your wording better. Thanks much! Tharthan (talk) 23:08, 18 January 2015 (UTC)


Hey. Fancy becoming an admin once this vandal's gone away? --Type56op9 (talk) 12:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure! It would certainly be useful next time something like this happens. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Accept here please --Type56op9 (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Your vote has passed, you are an Admin. Please add your name to WT:Admin. Also, see Help:Sysop tools. —Stephen (Talk) 23:56, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


I have reverted your change at pocketpussy because I don't think it's proper to simply declare a tradename genericized. The term "fleshlight" is not that common and I wouldn't even say generally known. If someone were to ask "what's a 'pocketpussy?" would it make sense to reply "Oh, you know, a 'fleshlight'" ? I think not. This isn't like saying a flying disc is a "Frisbee". Personnally, I could probably figure out what a the term being defined is but I wouldn't know what a 'fleshlight' was if I hadn't run across an ad, nor would it give me any clues by it's name. 'Artificial vagina' is, however, quite clear, even if you've never encountered one for human use and only knew of those used for livestock or none at all.--BewareofDoug(talk contribs) 20:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit of -ismEdit

"there's no need to go into so much detail about which parts of the definition apply to which derived words"

How about a short note indicating there is no doctrine, ideology, or principle associated with atheism?

Maybe remove the term?

The definition perpetuates false beliefs and reinforces the stigma plaguing atheists. JohnAndrewMorrison (talk) 06:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to remove it—atheism is a good example of the usage of the suffix -ism. Moreover, atheism (at least sense 1) is associated with an ideology: the belief that there is no god. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 11:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Your identification of atheism being an ideology is exactly why the notation needs to be made. From Wiktionary: ideology - Doctrine, philosophy, body of beliefs or principles belonging to an individual or group. Not a single belief, or nonbelief as the case is, but a body of beliefs or a codified belief system. Saying atheism is an ideology implies things can be done in the name of atheism, but they can't. It allows blame for past acts of people (Hitler, Marx, Pol Pot) to be assigned to atheism when the fact is these people just happened to be atheist; they were driven to acts of violence by other ideologies (e.g. communism, socialism, naziism) or personal shortcomings, not because they were atheist. This is the negative stigma I refer to. —This unsigned comment was added by JohnAndrewMorrison (talkcontribs).

I disagree with several of the statements you've just made, and in particular with the idea that stating that the word atheism is sometimes used to refer to an ideology implies that Hitler was evil because he was an atheist. To reiterate my point, atheism (in the narrowest sense) refers to "a doctrine, ideology or principle" (per the relevant definition of -ism). If you disagree with this, I encourage you to bring it up in the WT:Tea room, where we can get the opinions of other editors. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Did you look at the definition of atheism here on Wiktionary? The only mention of doctrine is in the "loose" definition and says a lack of belief in a doctrine. "To reiterate my point, atheism (in the narrowest sense) refers to "a doctrine, ideology or principle" (per the relevant definition of -ism). " Is a circular argument, it is fallacious. You are saying he definition of atheism given in -ism is accurate because that is the way it is defined in -ism. You have completely made my point. If you compare the Wiktionary definition of atheism with the definition it is given in the -ism entry you have to conclude the -ism definition is wrong. I never said it was asserted that Hitler was evil because he was atheist. What is asserted is there are claims that the atrocities he committed were in the name of atheism. You can disagree with my claim that atheism is used to assert the atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot, Marx, etc., were done in the name of atheism, it is just an opinion. I have personal experience, more than a dozen people arguing this point with me, and demonstrable truth it is. Here is Aslan Reza, a recognized expert in religion wordwide, saying exactly this. It at 14:30 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGBsmvRbpck. I will post this discussion in the Tea room as suggested.

Moving attestion for RfV failed items to Citation spaceEdit

I moved the squish citations to Citations:squish. They might be useful someday. DCDuring TALK 02:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Please, I beg of you, to discuss, please?Edit

Can we please discuss recent removals at the respective entry's talk pages?

Thank you,

-- Cirt (talk) 23:18, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I could really use some help and advice, Mr. Granger, and I'm most willing to listen to polite explanations -- can you please discuss with me? -- Cirt (talk) 23:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss. It seems that while I was eating dinner, you made comments in a number of different places. I'll start responding to them now. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:54, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Two main questions: Can I cite Usenet if it's a post in a different language? Why is Google acceptable to archive links, but not w:Internet Archive ? -- Cirt (talk) 23:55, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Usenet posts in other languages can be cited—but generally only for words in other languages. So, for example, an English-language post could be a citation for an English word, and a German-language post could be a citation for a German word, but not vice versa.
I think the Internet Archive question is a good one. These standards were already in place when I became active here, but as I understand it, the reason for allowing Usenet is more than just the fact that it's archived by Google. See Dan Polansky's second comment in Wiktionary:Requests for verification#parcelcopter for some more information. It is also generally agreed that the Wayback Machine is not an acceptable source for citations—for one thing, its pages are taken down on request by the owner of the original site or if the site puts up an appropriate robots.txt page. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:07, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
But no one has put up a robots.txt page. So why can't we use them? And thank you for the language answer, that helps me save Polandball from into extinction. -- Cirt (talk) 00:12, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Right, but someone could post a robots.txt page in the future, in which case the page would no longer be accessible. The point is that we need to be confident the cited source will still be there many years in the future. Some past discussion can be found at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2012/March#More on the Wayback Machine. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
That discussion at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2012/March#More on the Wayback Machine seems to allow for Wayback Machine links on the Citations page. -- Cirt (talk) 00:24, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, so if you feel that they're important, you can re-add them. They won't stop the entry from being deleted, though, unless we can find three independent, durably archived citations in a single language. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:27, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Doing... -- Cirt (talk) 00:28, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

  Done = I've added Usenet Google Group archived durably cited attestable entries. Three (3) Usenet cites in Polish language, and one in French language and one in Italian language. Question: Is this now satisfactory to not have this information be disappeared from this website? Thank you for your help and advice, I really appreciate it, -- Cirt (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Three independent Polish Usenet citations would be enough to keep an entry for the Polish word "Polandball" – but they have no impact on the entry for the English word. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:43, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes but we can keep the page, itself, here locally on this site? -- Cirt (talk) 00:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Update: We now have on the Citations:Polandball page = three (3) Usenet cites in Polish language, three (3) Usenet cites in French language, and three (3) Usenet cites in Italian language. Hopefully this is now sufficient to keep this page from being disappeared from this site? Thank you, -- Cirt (talk) 00:51, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Place for removed cites?Edit

I see some cites were removed from Polandball.

Is there a place somewhere else on the page we can add those back, like a new section for other languages -- on the entry page, itself, in addition to the Citations page ?

Thank you,

-- Cirt (talk) 19:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

If someone adds a French, Polish, or Italian entry for Polandball, then that would be an appropriate place to put French-, Polish-, or Italian-language citations. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Do you mean on a different website or on this page, lower down on the same page? -- Cirt (talk) 22:25, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
I mean lower down on the same page. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Okay can we do that please? I haven't done that before. How do we go about creating sections for those? Thank you for your help, -- Cirt (talk) 01:23, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I've added the other language entries to the page. Please see DIFF. Someone should coin a phrase: Usenet. It's Wiktionary's GOLD. GOLD I tell ya, GOLD. Better than Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's COMBINED. The future is USENET. LOL ... -- Cirt (talk) 01:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

So, what is the next step? Does it look better? How does it look so far? -- Cirt (talk) 05:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, the new entries don't have the standard formatting for French, Italian, and Polish entries, so I've added {{attention}} tags to ask editors familiar with those languages to take a look. I suppose the next step is to wait for that to happen. Other than that they look fine. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! -- Cirt (talk) 14:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


The Esperanto suffixes "-mis" and "-retro" (among a few more), where actually borrowed into Esperanto from Ido. I do know that Ido is a child of Esperanto ("ido"), but that does not mean that Esperanto never took words from Ido. I was just citing the Esperanto Wiki page for Ido: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ido_%28lingvo%29#Influo_al_Esperanto. Amikal - Algentem (talk) 21:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

My mistake. Thank you for pointing that out. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:33, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Ho, nula problemi! Thank you for pointing out how to better structure my edits (still getting used to it!) - Algentem (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2015 (UTC)


You removed the sense "(slang, in double negatives) anything" as being the same as the sense "something trifling, or of no consequence or importance". Classically, this is used like,

Police officer: "Did you see the murder?"
Witness: "I didn't see nothing

This does not mean something trifling here. The murder, that is, the thing claimed not to have been seen, is not trifling or of no consequence. Something trifling cannot be substituted and retain the sense, whereas anything can. SpinningSpark 08:28, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, my edit summary must not have been clear. It's not the same as the "something trifling" sense—it's the same as the "not any thing" sense. All other English negative words (as far as I know) work the same way—I didn't see nobody, I didn't go nowhere, I don't want no trouble, etc. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:32, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Reported vandalismEdit

AFAIK there is no other way than using WT:VIP.
It was like this:

  1. I corrected WT:About German
  2. It got reverted
  3. I tried to discuss the issue with the reverting person, see User_talk:Metaknowledge/2015/Jul-Dec#Wiktionary:About_German. His answer was pretty much that he hasn't enough knowledge to discuss the issue and he used an ad hominem argument ("whom I trust much more than you" obviously is an ad hominem argument)
  4. I corrected WT:About German again and tried to discuss the issue at Wiktionary_talk:About_German#Orthographic_Conferences_of_1876_and_1901.
  5. The correction got reverted again and no reply was given at the talk page.
  6. WT:About German got blocked from editing.
  7. I used WT:VIP.

What else can I do? I can't correct WT:About German, and the vandals do not discuss at Wiktionary_talk:About_German#Orthographic_Conferences_of_1876_and_1901 and do not have enough knowledge to dicuss the issue anyway.
Also: At WT:About German it is "or the the Second Orthographic Conference of 1901". It should be obvious that the "the the" is incorrect, but the vandals didn't even correct that, even though the error was mentioned before. - 15:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Calling people vandals is about as ad hominem as you can get around here, so I would suggest you drop that debating point. WT:VIP is for the purpose of bringing vandalism to the attention of the admins so they can act on it. Not only are the actions in question those of admins, but other admins have weighed in, so there's no need to bring it up there. Referring to this as vandalism is a serious misuse of the term. Vandalism is doing things for the purpose of doing damage. Right or wrong, CodeCat did what she did to protect the project from what she considered to be misinformation: if her actions are vandalism, so are yours.
As for what to do about it: the Beer parlour is the correct venue for policy discussions, including discussing the conduct of admins. If you bring it up there, I would suggest you drop the inflammatory accusations of vandalism and stick to the substance of your disagreement. We have active admins who are native speakers, and at least one non-native who is a linguist that works with German at a professional level, so your concerns will be considered by people who understand the issues. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Personal RFVEdit

RFV for Esperanto word Darvin. --kc_kennylau (talk) 02:38, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Citeable, though seemingly less common than Elizabeta: [1] [2] [3]Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


Thank you ! I didn't see that :) Leasnam (talk) 14:00, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

I was considering changing it to Dude, that was some dank weed!...thoughts/objections ? Leasnam (talk) 14:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Dankon de Witionary komencanto (Thanks from a Wiktionary beginner)Edit

I guess I was fooled by what seemed a straightforward statement: "As an international dictionary, Wiktionary is intended to include 'all words in all languages'."

I never really considered the fact that 'word' was defined as having to be in "widespread use" or " permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year" and, if not, it was then, therefore, not a word in a language to be included. Nor would I have ever thought that anyone would be policing such inclusion.

I do not intend to be a Wiktionary lawyer that holds everyone to the letter of the CFI, but I will certainly keep these criteria in mind if I make a page -- just not question others who might not be so circumspect in following the letter of the CFI.

As a user, if I am looking for a definition of a word I come across, I want to find it. All the more so, if it is a rare word. The rarity of a word means I am much more likely to not know it's meaning and, so, in need of finding a definition for it. But what is written in the CFI, is written, and obviously needful as a guideline. So I will myself abide by and obey it. Now, thank you, I am aware of this and so will no longer question those who wish to question the attestation of a word. I can only hope the word I may have to find a definition for was not purged because it was deemed too rare for inclusion. Even though I obviously disagree with the policy, I do wish to to be a good citizen of the Wiktionary community and I really do appreciate you informing my ignorance. I especially will look into the suggestion about including a BabelBox. Thanks for that pointer, also.

Sollupulo (talk) 17:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

beyond the black stumpEdit

Dear Mr. Granger

I see you are a fan of this word. There appears to be some helpful information regarding the proposed etymology here:



Sonofcawdrey (talk) 02:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Robin van der Vliet (talkcontribs)Edit

The user appears to be inserting a lot of possible protologisms for a constructed language. --Romanophile (contributions) 20:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll RFV some of them. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

First time using this. I'm visiting your page because I got (and get) a good laugh out of your recording for the onomatopoeia "moo." I also have interests in etymology and found your "likes" to be very interesting. Just saying hello. ̴̴


Can u please transfer a boy to a Spanish language T Chaita 15:12, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I assume you mean "translate" - a boy in Spanish is un niño. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:16, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


Hello ! Look At My Votes ! Their Fixed !


You don't think that the grandaunt/great-aunt definition is used? It seems plausible enough, no? Tharthan (talk) 23:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree that it seems plausible, but after several months at WT:RFV, no one had provided citations, so I removed the sense. If you can find three citations meeting WT:CFI, please feel free to add the sense back with the citations. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Ineligible voteEdit

Why my vote is inelegible?

Elchsntre (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Per Wiktionary:Voting policy, a user's account "must have at least 50 edits in total to the main, Citations, Appendix, Rhymes, Wikisaurus, or Concordance namespaces on English Wiktionary by the start time of the vote" to be eligible. You only had 17. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:56, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

CFI and conlangs in mainspaceEdit

Currently, CFI allows for Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua, Interlingue (Occidental), Lojban, Novial, and Volapük to be in mainspace, despite the fact that I suspect some of them have so little material that nearly all our entries would fail RFV. (In fact, Klingon is not allowed in mainspace, but its durably archived corpus probably rivals that of Lojban, for example.) This suggests to me that fewer of them should be in mainspace, perhaps only Esperanto and Ido, and that the others should be moved to Appendix space like Toki Pona and Quenya. I wanted to get your thoughts on this before I proceed to further discussions or a vote. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:19, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

That's a good point. Esperanto and Ido certainly have enough published works for us to cite plenty of words, and I think Volapük does too. My understanding is that the other four have much smaller corpora. I don't know much about Novial, Interlingua, or Interlingue/Occidental, but Lojban's published corpus is very small—very common Lojban words like .i, la, and mo look like they're citeable from Usenet, but I'm not sure whether ordinary words like muvdu are citeable.
I think starting a discussion sounds like a good idea, at least to figure out whether it's even possible to cite a significant number of words in languages like Lojban or Interlingua. WT:About Lojban#Criteria for inclusion says that the criteria for Lojban are less strict than for other languages, but I don't know if there's consensus for that—if there is, I think WT:CFI should be edited accordingly. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:21, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Hah, I'd never seen that someone made up their own rules for inclusion of Lojban words. That's not been consensus at any point. And I've seen you send a lot of Volapük words to RFV, but I'll trust you if you think Volapük should remain in mainspace. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:50, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Yeah—unfortunately, we've had one or two prolific editors creating lots of unattested Volapük entries, so I've been RFV-ing some of them a few at a time. But I think there's enough on Google Books for Volapük to be worth including in the mainspace. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Incidentally, I've evolved on this issue myself. Please feel free to contribute to the BP discussion. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:33, 9 October 2016 (UTC)


You removed a definition I added as redundant to another definition. Lemme be honest: I think the definition you kept isn't a particularly cleanly-written definition, and as such, if only one of them is kept (and I'm not 100% sure they mean exactly the same thing), I think mine would be the better one to be kept. Purplebackpack89 23:01, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, feel free to rephrase the existing definition more clearly. Your definition ("Used as an intensifier") does not cover all of the examples under the existing sense, IMHO, so we shouldn't use it to replace the existing sense. And unless we can find examples that aren't covered by the existing senses, I don't see any reason to add a new one. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:11, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Krokodili etymologyEdit

I'm just going to paste what I've already said, and like I said, can ANYONE cite a single source for that "crocodile tears"? It is of equal il/legitimacy if there is nowhere else that has ever mentioned that besides the page itself, every example links their source right back here in a recursive loop. Give me one reason why that tears tripe isn't as fake as the mouths explanation? You can't. Meanwhile it has been mentioned multiple times in the same discussion on the lernu forums "My understanding is that crocodiles are supposed to have big mouths and small brains, which is how the expression originated.", which is further corroborated in J.F. Conroy's Dictionary and Phrasebook where it also gives kajmani and aligatori as accepted terms for the same action denoted by krokodili. Therefore it is clear that the connotation is to the physical resemblance of the creature, and not any invented "tears" nonsense, as "alligator tears" and "cayman tears" are not accepted idioms, and yet they are used for the same verb anyway.

At least I can cite a non-wiki source, whereas there is not a single shred of evidence for the one you seem to have no problem with. "Crocodiles having large mouths have nothing to do with crocodile tears"? Yeah that's right, and crocodile tears have absolutely nothing to do with the verb. The administrative favoritism in play here is plainly evident.



Not being American, "Tsarnaev" simply didn't ring any bells for me so I assumed good faith. Having looked it up, it's probably vandalism but since I can't see what was in the +3888 edit he made I can't be sure. Urban dictionary does have a definition for a tsarnaev, but as far as I can tell there's nothing in common use.

It still might be good faith, but it's probably vandalism. Just wanted to let you know I had no way of knowing which it was (without looking it up) when I replied to his message. The reason I didn't look it up was, again, good faith. I assumed it would have been slang or something and a thing that may or may not pass CFI. In fact, it still might be, but a couple of searches don't seem to turn up anything. W3ird N3rd (talk) 20:45, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough. My edit summary wasn't intended as a criticism of your response. Seeing that the discussion had no chance going to go anywhere useful, I just decided it would be best to remove it altogether. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Moving of citation on alt-leftEdit

I disapprove of your move of the Trump/LA Times quote from the first sense to the second. Don't you think the Trump quote supports the first definition as well? Many stories that talk about the alt-left link it to antifa. Purplebackpack89

We should only have two separate senses if we can't adequately explain all the quotations with just one sense. In other words, to verify the new sense, we need quotations that unambiguously support it and not the existing sense. So, in my opinion, if the Trump quotation is ambiguous between the two senses, we should assume that it supports the existing sense unless we can find three unambiguous quotations for the new sense. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:32, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
If two senses become one (which I continue to maintain shouldn't happen), the older sense needs re-wording. How does Donald Trump's use of the word "alt-left" support "a section of the political spectrum... [that] holds paradoxically conservative views"? Clearly not at all. We either need to lose that clause or move the Trump/LA Times quote back to sense one. To me, there's clearly two definitions:
  1. 2017: Very leftists in all respects and violent towards fascists/Nazis/Confederates.
  2. 2016: Not all that left and not all that violent toward fascists
In essence, I believe that the 2017 definition (sense one, currently) can be used fairly interchangeably with antifa, but the 2016 definition (sense two) cannot. As notes at the RfV, the 2016 definition of alt-left is often used to refer to people who previously voted Democratic, but voted Trump in 2016. That is clearly a different group than the antifas. Purplebackpack89 16:17, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
You've left out a key part of the definition. It says "such as holding paradoxically conservative views" and then gives another example as well. I think Trump probably wasn't trying to say that the protesters held paradoxically conservative views, but I do think it's reasonable to suppose he was referring to "a section of the political spectrum that is left-wing while in some way illegitimate or contemptible".
I understand that you believe that there are two different definitions, but I don't see see any clear evidence for this distinction in the citations in the entry. Anyway, my user talk page is probably the wrong place for this discussion—the tea room, RFV, or even Talk:alt-left would be better. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

SOP entriesEdit

Hello! How is it possible in Wikipedia to create an SOP entry to unite all the translations of it?--Sae1962 (talk) 10:54, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi. I believe there is consensus for keeping SOP phrases as "translation targets" in certain limited cases, where they are SOP in English but aren't in many languages. An example is day after tomorrow. I don't think this should be done with fake news, though, because presumably it can translated to most languages simply by combining the word for "fake" with the word for "news". —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:59, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

edit at boofEdit

Your observation that sense 1 of etymology 2 means "to have anal sex as the penetrative partner" in most cites seems correct to me, but I think the other cites could plausibly mean "to have anal sex" as well and there is not much that indicates a different act. Also, I had removed "to sodomise" from the definition because of its negative connotations. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:23, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, in the 2015 Usenet quotation, it's clearly not referring to anal sex—the author explains in detail what he means. The other 2015 quotation could possibly mean "to have anal sex as the penetrative partner", I guess, but that seems quite unlikely. Based on the context, the June 5, 2005 quotation also looks to me like it's more likely to mean "have sex with" than the more specific anal sex definition, but I'm not certain. So I added the additional qualification to the definition to cover those three quotations. But if you think it would be better to give "to have anal sex as the penetrative partner" as the only definition, I guess that's fine, if we disregard the 2015 Usenet quotation and accept a strange interpretation of the 2015 book quotation.
I added the word "sodomise" because, based on the citations, "boof" seems to have a negative connotation too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:57, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
I think you're correct that "to have anal sex as the penetrative partner" is too broad, and that the 2015 Usenet sense doesn't refer to penetrative sex. I'd guess many people would informally call that anal sex though, even though there doesn't seem to be any anus involved. What about phrasing it as "to have anal sex with someone, usually as the penetrative partner; to have butt sex"?
As for negative connotations, I am not convinced the quotations about prison rape indicates a sense like "against their will" or "to rape anally" rather than just a vulgar register, but I'll drop the point. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
"to have anal sex with someone, usually as the penetrative partner" works for me. I think "butt sex" is too informal for a definition. You may be right about the connotations; if you want to remove the word "sodomise", that's fine with me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:23, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
All right, I've put that as the definition, and placed sodomize under "See also". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Looks good to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:05, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Bringing it to your attention--Edit

Hey, I just want to bring something to your attention. You added a 'See also' section to 山高皇帝遠 and the code you wrote was: l|zh|天高皇帝遠. User:Justinrleung changed it to zh-l|天高皇帝遠 in this edit: [4]. The advantage of zh-l over l|zh is that zh-l automatically shows a pronunciation (usually Mandarin Pinyin). Your way wasn't really wrong, but most entries are using zh-l instead of l|zh. You probably already knew all this. Anyway, keep up the good work- your original edit was good, but maybe not 'perfect'. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:43, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know! I didn't know about zh-l. Most of my time on Wiktionary has been spent editing English, Esperanto, and Spanish, but lately I'm starting to spend more time editing Chinese entries. I'll try to remember to use zh-l in the future. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)


  • foreign :

Hello Mx. Granger. This pronunciation is recorded by a French-speaking woman, she said [ˈfɒɹeɪn], it's a wrong pronunciation? If yes, I will remove it in the article. 20:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I would call it wrong, yes, or at least detectably non-native. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:08, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


Hello, the "eo-head" adds the wrong categories because of the "-oto" participle ending, but "pispoto" is not a nominal participle, but a noun. We discussed this issue last year in the Grease pit here. J3133 (talk) 05:47, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Never mind, I didn't know Module:eo-headword/exceptions exists. J3133 (talk) 06:52, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Wilson PhungEdit

Hello Mx. Granger. To this pronunciation, we should write [fʌŋ] or [fɒŋ] ? 17:29, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure that it's not the normal [ʌ]. 11:48, 3 February 2020 (UTC)