Talk:pinxit

RFV discussion: March–July 2015

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pinxit

Rfv-sense- Supposedly English. SemperBlotto (talk) 14:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

More than three citations of this word can be found on Google Books. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] It usually seems to come in quotation marks or otherwise set off from the rest of the text, though, so I'm not sure whether it is really an English sense distinct from the Latin sense. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 15:05, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The Latin sense is a verb, and the English sense is a noun. This should be sufficient. See What talent! This pinxit is remarkable! and Glance your eye down to the pinxit in the corner. Also, it is used as a countable noun: Made herself acquainted with all the Stephanoff pinxits. In all these senses, none of them approach the Latin words for "painted by" or "painter". Instead, they clearly specifically to the PINXIT mark on the painting, OR to paintings which have this mark. --Pnelsonmusic (talk) 15:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

We haven't defined it as a noun yet. As a multilingual dictionary we can include such words under the appropriate language header of the original language, so we don;t lose the content, though some ordinary users (especially of tabbed languages) and repackagers of our English content may miss this kind of thing.

Even if we decide that the use in inscriptions and in italics in running English text does not make it English, we can both preserve the integrity of our principles of inclusion and make sure that users don't miss this by attesting the noun sense (provided it can be attested, of course) and including the Latin etymology in the English section. DCDuring TALK 15:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I think I understand. You're saying that it could be identified as a Noun (with the noun senses) under the Latin language. But then this would be missed by people reading English. And so, I guess, your solution to this is to include it in the "English" section with the etymology of Latin (which is what I did originally, although the Etymology is copied from the GCIDE, and probably not up to Wiktionary standards). Only now User:CodeCat has changed the language to "Translingual"? — This comment was unsigned.

I was saying that it could probably be attested as an English noun, but would need a definition that fitted its use as an English noun. I have provided a new English noun definition and found three citations that, I think, count as attestation. Please review.

For it to be Translingual I think we would have to attest it, not typographically distinguished, in more than one language or have some translingual authority recognize its use (as for taxonomic names). This is a particularly complicated little bit of 'legalism', not likely to be the norm for contributions from the Webster 1913 supplement. DCDuring TALK 16:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this help! I have found a bunch of GCIDE definitions not in Wiktionary and I thought I'd put a toe in the water and try to enter one. It is true that I have not found a non-typographically-distinguished version of "Pinxit" referring to the mark which occurs after the signature OR the work as a whole, although that's how it's defined by Wikipedia (grin). Anyway, my JSTOR 'free' bookshelf is used up, so in 14 days I may continue looking. --Pnelsonmusic (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't the quotations now in the entry show this use? DCDuring TALK 17:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I guess so! Sorry, I mis-read your definition to identify the signature as a whole, and not the word after the signature. Thanks again.

With DCD's excellent second definition, I would delete the first. It basically says that the word "pinxit" is called "pinxit", which isn't 100% exact. Of DCD's quotes, two first ones seem to be cases where "pinxit" refers to the whole of the signature, whether it contains the actual word "pinxit" or not. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

But the first one was actually written by a dictionary author in 1913. I keep thinking that there must be old books which illustrate these definitions, though I haven't found them yet. --Pnelsonmusic (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

A monolingual English dictionary could be expected to include Latin terms that a user might encounter. A multilingual dictionary like Wiktionary can include Latin terms as Latin. The use of pinxit on a painting is arguably Latin. The use of pinxit as a noun in running English text without italics is English.

Latin (or pseudo-Latin) inscriptions on building, medical Latin, legal Latin, pharmacological Latin (ie noun phrase referring to herbal preparations, scientific Latin, and taxonomic Latin (species descriptions) all have required some careful thought to determine how we should treat them. Medical and legal Latin have been determined to be English by default, the others Latin by default. Whether these are correct defaults is hard to say. We also have exceptions based on attestation evidence. Eliminating the default for a usage type means that someone entering a term of these types needs to make a decision about what language heading etc is appropriate. This usually just means reinventing the wheel or making a mistake. If we want to revisit this kind of thing in general, it should be in the Beer Parlor.

In this particular case, we have the Latin and we have the English etymology section to tell users what pinxit means. That seems sufficient to me, being more than what we do for Latin in, say, building inscriptions. DCDuring TALK 11:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

If the first sense were regarded as English, it would be a verb form, not noun, wouldn't it? — This comment was unsigned.--Hekaheka (talk) 16:09, 3 April 2015 (UTC) (added afterwards)

Yes. We could define it under a Verb heading with a context/usage label and gloss "{on a painting, after a name or mark of an artist) Painted." or with a non-gloss definition.

That would mean that we view it as English. DCDuring TALK 10:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

RFVed sense fails as an English noun (sic!); it's a Latin verb. DCDuring's excellent added sense, which is a noun, stays. - -sche (discuss) 22:07, 23 July 2015 (UTC)