Hekaheka

I have archived some of the older discussions here:

User_talk:Hekaheka/Archive (25 Dec 2006 through 8 Dec 2011)

User_talk:Hekaheka/Archive_2011_2014

User talk:Hekaheka/Archive 2015 2017

tykkilumi

@ tykkilumi you added this with the definition "cannon-made snow". In English this means nothing because cannons fire ammunition not snow. So I interpreted this as meaning "artificial snow" shot cannon-like from a machine to the place where it is needed. But this news item (https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10000701) implies that tykkylumi came naturally and not from a cannon. In English this would just be called "heavy snowfall" (when a lot of snow falls in a very short space of time). I have no user account and I am not Finnish so if my interpretation is correct, could you please modify the english definition. Thanks.

Tykkylumi

See Wikipedia article "Snowmaking" to see what I meant with snow cannon. Tykkilumi and tykkylumi are different things. The former is artificial snow produced with a snow gun a.k.a. snow cannon, the latter is a result of a natural phenomenon in which (see Crown snow-load) droplets of fog or low level cloud (Stratus) freeze on the windward (wind-facing) side of tree branches, buildings, or any other solid objects.--Hekaheka (talk) 19:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

PS. Thanks for the notification. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:44, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Wow, that is one subtle difference between the words! —Rua (mew) 22:26, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Also a snow cannon is a thing in English too. —Rua (mew) 22:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry. I am an idiot for not noticing that the word in the YLE news item began TYKKY... but the word that I clicked on when I started punching it into the wiktionary search field was TYKKILUMI. I must try harder... Kind regard Anonymous IP user.

As Rua mentioned, it's a subtle difference and it's very easy to get confused. I'd say that your question led to the creation of the entry tykkylumi and improvement of at least two others (tykky and tykkilumi), which makes it a good question. --Hekaheka (talk) 01:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

käydä / käypä

I did not make good enough bookmarks when I made the edits. I came to the understanding that the foot related verb käydä originally meant stepping a single step, from where the frequentative derivative kävellä was derived from. Therefore, and considering -pa#Etymology_2, käypä would be an archaic version of käyvä, with the meaning 'one who makes a single step'. It might be that I induced the käydä=astua relation from the established understanding that kävellä is a frequentative aspect of käydä. Or I might have read it from somewhere. --Liedes (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

It seems that the only established meaning (by Wiktionary) for is to walk. I wonder why the frequentative aspect kävellä has developed then. Does that not mean 'astellaella'? --Liedes (talk) 20:15, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@Liedes When I made my comment of "käypä" not being an alternative form of "käyvä" I was thinking of current usage. In current Finnish they have a different connotation. For example the statements hän on kuntosalilla käypä kaveri/hän on kuntosalilla käyvä kaveri do not mean the same. In Wiktionary, unless specifically labeled "obsolete", "archaic" or "dated", we try to describe the contemporary language, and any history belongs to the Etymology or sometimes Usage notes sections. With "Alternative term" we mean something that is totally interchangeable, e.g. tämänhetkinen vs. tämän hetkinen. One should always remember also that this is an English Wiktionary. Anything we write should be comprehensible even for those who don't speak a word of Finnish.

Please read carefully WT:ELE, if you already didn't. Also following Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion and Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification help to gain understanding of what is preferred and what is not. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

About käydä. I have always understood that it is roughly the same as kävellä. E.g. Ota vuoteesi ja käy. (Bible) or Tietä käyden tien on vanki, vapaa on vain umpihanki. (Hellaakoski). Why kävellä developed, I don't know. Perhaps to differentiate from the numerous other meanings of käydä, such as ferment, visit and suit. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

On käypä, you are probably looking for the term doublet, sense #3 (which we probably ought to have in Appendix:Glossary). --Tropylium (talk) 17:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Ps. kävellä probably started off as a entirely regular frequentative 'to walk about'. You can still see this e.g. in how olla kävelyllä means "to be on a walk (for leisure)" = "to be walking about", not the more general "to be walking (from any place to any other place)". It might have mostly ousted käydä from the sense "to walk" since the base verb has developed also various other senses such as "to visit", "to be suitable". --Tropylium (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

intubate

Do we not capitalise and add full-stops to all English definitions? ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Why do you ask me? I just added the Finnish translation. I see all sorts of combinations in English entries: cap-dot, nocap-dot, cap-nodot and nocap-nodot - even within a single entry. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh, no! It seems that I actually did remove the caps and dots - something that I would not do intentionally. I must have thought that I was editing the header of a translation table. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:43, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

szarvas

Hi, the taboo comment was referring to an old superstition that certain animals were not called be their actual name but something else. I'm not sure what the correct English phrase is, but in literal translation from Hungarian it is "name taboo". --Panda10 (talk) 19:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Panda10 OK, we'll find a way to say it in a way which conveys information also to non-Hungarians. Does sarvaz refer to any horned animal, or to a specific one, or even to an imaginary one such as unicorn? I assume that sarvaz is the name used instead of the actual name - is that correct? --Hekaheka (talk) 21:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

It was shortened from szarvas állat (horned animal) where the adjective szarvas (horned, with a horn) became a noun and as such, today it specifically means deer. The formation was probably influenced by name taboo, a belief that means the name of dangerous or respected beings should not be uttered, only circumscribed. This name taboo created similar paraphrase in other animal names, for example farkas (wolf) was originally farkas állat (tailed animal, animal with a tail). Would this explanation work better? --Panda10 (talk) 22:16, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Panda10 "Euphemism" maybe. DTLHS (talk) 22:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@DTLHS But does euphemism imply fear? --Panda10 (talk) 22:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't imply fear, but euphemism can occur because of fear. DTLHS (talk) 22:39, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I divided the entry into two etymologies, one for the adjective sense and the other for the noun, adding Panda10's explanation to the noun section. Feel free to edit. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I made a small change, removing "of deer". Thanks for your help! --Panda10 (talk) 00:58, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

eittää

Esiintyy kyllä mun kielenkäytössäni, joskin defektiivisenä: vain infinitiivi / 3. persoonan eittää ("turha eittää mitään", "mitä se nyt eittää"), sen sijaan tosiaan ei 1. / 2. persoonan finiittimuotoja ˣeitän, ˣeität jne. Google löytää nettisanakirjoja joissa tälle on annettu ihan täydellinenkin taivutus, sekä jonkun usealle taholle mirroroidun foorumikyselyn jossa joku haluaa tietää mitä tämä verbi merkitsee; näiden lisäksi lähinnä kirjoitusvirheitä verbeistä esittää, peittää, heittää. Mutta myös pari selvää vanhaa attestaatiota löytyy: [1] (1859), [2] (1911), [3] (1920). Uudempi: vihjeenä ristisanassa (vaaka 13).

SSA tuntee tästä kuitenkin vain yhden vanhan kirjasuomen attestaation ja SMS ei mitään, joten näyttäisi aika lailla siltä, että nykykäytössä ja ehkä noissa vanhemmissakin tapauksissa on kyse paikallisesta takaperoisjohdoksesta noista laajemmin tunnetuista tapauksista eittämätön ja eittämättä. --Tropylium (talk) 11:26, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

koskikara

This has a declension but also says to "see kara". DTLHS (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Seems that Heyzeuss forgot to remove "see Kara" when they added the declension table. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

scroll/talla

Hello, I was just looking at the translations at nut (of a musical instrument) and I noticed that 'talla' is given as the Finnish translation for 'nut' but that 'talla' is translated as 'bridge' on its own page. I am aware that there is some overlap with these terms in some languages so I was wondering if you know if that is the case, or if something needs changing. And if you don't want to bother with it, I can contact a Finnish musician or violin maker to be 100% certain. Thanks for any help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:56, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Kaixinguo~enwiktionary "Nut" would seem to be yläsatula in Finnish [4]. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

teline hyper or hypo?

Hello, looks like you were the person who made the edit to add "hypnyms" (diff) to teline. I updated to "hypernyms" and then realized that I had no idea if that was a typo for hyponyms or hypernyms. Can you take a look? Thanks. - TheDaveRoss 20:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC) @TheDaveRoss It was meant to be "hyponyms". Thank you for asking. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

What is SOP for t:fi and what isn't

Just my 2¢'s, but I've noticed you applying extra [[ ]]'s for some {{t}} entries in Finnish to signify that the words form a non-idiomatic sum of parts. I've done much of the same, but I feel that sometimes it ends up being too strict. For instance on golden spiral, the translation you added was [[kultainen]] [[spiraali]], but [[kultainen spiraali]] is better, since it's not idiomatic - the word isn't literally referring to a spiral-shaped object made out of gold here.

In short, if the combination of words represents an idiomatic concept on its own, it shouldn't be separated but instead kept as a single multi-word idiomatic expression. This is what WT:CFI is talking about; excluding entries for multi-word expressions that are not idiomatic. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 15:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

True. "Kultainen spiraali" would merit an entry of its own. The reason I made it two links instad of one, is probably a combination of these circumstances: 1) I didn't have the energy to create "kultainen spiraali" at the moment and I thought "kultainen" "spiraali" is more informative than a red link; 2) "kultainen spiraali" seems to translate word-by-word into most languages and 3) if someone would later feel that an entry for "kultainen spiraali" is necessary and justified, he or she is free to create it and remove the square brackets. Thus, if you want to "raise" an SOP-translation into full entry status, feel free to do so. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

hirvikoira

What is a "taxhound"? DTLHS (talk) 22:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It's an error. Should read "dachshund". --Hekaheka (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

binaarinen vs binäärinen

What do you think about switching the two such that binaarinen is the alt form and binäärinen is the main one, and then doing the same for all derived terms? The latter forms with ä seem considerably more common. Naturally we would also have to alter the etymology section somehow. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 20:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I did this now, since the forms with ää are considerably more common than the forms with aa. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 13:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Hmm. Kielitoimiston sanakirja [5] appears to have another opinion. Perhaps we should treat them as equal. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I would almost compare it to the pizza-pitsa case regarding how much they end up actually being used. I cannot find a single written source apart from them that would prefer binaari over binääri. HS and YLE all use binääri in modern articles. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 10:31, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I must be a fossil. I would personally prefer "binaarinen". --Hekaheka (talk) 10:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Tieteen termipankki has binaarinen [6] but not binäärinen. I got 13,400 hits for a simple Google search for binaarinen and 18,300 for binäärinen. I would not call this an overwhelming victory. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:36, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

With the adjectival form, the difference comes across as a lot less pronounced than it actually is. binaariluku 851, binääriluku 4140; binaarinumero 385, binäärinumero 261 (the exception!); binaarijärjestelmä 737, binäärijärjestelmä 2,530. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 10:40, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

We'd perhaps expect binaari- to be more common, but I think this is widely getting analogical -ää- from primääri-, sekundääri-, tertiääri-, kvartääri-. --Tropylium (talk) 20:22, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Finnish suffix -ti

The entry says "acting without poa". What is poa? Equinox ◑ 18:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

• I don't know. That line was added by @Tropylium. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Huh, sorry, I have no idea what that's about; it looks like I saved before I was done writing that line. --Tropylium (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Automatic hyphenation

I'm currently writing a module that could be used to automatically create hyphenations for Finnish words, and it can (at the time of writing) be found here: Module:User:Surjection/fi-hyphenation. It is primarily the test cases that probably need a few more to test the functionality. Do you know any good source for those, or if not, do you have any ideas on tests that could be added? SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 19:57, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I cannot help in this one. One method might be to think of the puns (sanaleikki) you remember. Also the comic strip Fingerpori might produce good test cases. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:41, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

tuo

The declension table for tuo is missing the superessive and delative forms. Maybe they were left out because they're identical with the adessive and ablative. Still, they should be considered separate forms. Or what do you think? Yuhani (talk) 16:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not so much an expert in grammar, but I guess they should, in analogy with tämä. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Opinnot vs. opiskelu

Sometimes opiskelu is translated as course of study. Course of study is sometimes a synonym for studies, as in, "I will resume my studies next fall." You could use either term in that sentence. Opinnot seems to usually be a prefix, as in opinto-. Wikisanakirja defines opiskelu as opintojen harjoittaminen. I don't really know how to use the word when it is not a prefix. How would you use opinnot in a sentence? ~ heyzeuss 16:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Kotus's web dictionary[7] only lists the word in the plural form:

opinnot opiskelu jssak (ylemmässä) oppilaitoksessa t. jllak erityisalalla (studies in a [higher] learning institution or on some specific field). Akateemiset opinnot. Lääkärin opinnot myös →←. Suomen kielen, fysiikan opinnot. Kieli-, musiikkiopinnot. Kouluopinnot. Ammattiopinnot. Jatko-opinnot. Harjoittaa opintoja. Päättää opintonsa. Opinnot ovat kesken.

I edited our entry for opinto accordingly. Perhaps the content should be moved to opinnot and opinto be left as a redirect page. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:14, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

The word "usex"

Hi! I see that you have used the word "usex" within a few entries (e.g. "see usex above"). Since it's Wiktionary slang and not a normal English word, it is probably better to write "usage example". (Someone posted today that they didn't know what the word meant.) Equinox ◑ 15:42, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Got it! --Hekaheka (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

fake news

(there isn't an #English section—only #Danish —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 06:12, 21 December 2018 (UTC))

• Thanks, I'll add one. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
  • It had gone through RFD -> reverted my edits. Thanks for giving notice. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Non-physical abuse

The word abuse can be used in a wide range, and does not necessarily mean physical abuse. For example, playing Christmas music in a department store during the month of November might be considered customer abuse. How would you translate customer abuse?To what extent can the word pahoinpitely be used to mean abuse? ~ heyzeuss 13:23, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

asiakkaiden kiusaaminen? --Hekaheka (talk) 19:16, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Here's an example of a different use of the concept "customer abuse": "The vast majority (87%) of fast-food workers have experienced customer abuse, and the problem doesn't seem to be getting much better." This might be translated as "asiakkaiden huono käytös". --Hekaheka (talk) 19:23, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

"Pahoinpitely" almost always refers to physical abuse. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

kaksisieluinen

Hi. I hate to bother you, but could you add citations to this entry? There's quite a lot of back-and-forth on Talk:two-spirit about whether or not European languages have words for the concept. This word does indeed seem to be attested, but it would help to have proof. - -sche (discuss) 03:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

The term is used specifically in the context of Native Americans. In my opinion it exists in Finnish basically in the same way as the word laama (“llama”). We would not have a word for it if we knew nothing about the Americas. As we do, we have a name for it that is borrowed ultimately from native languages. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! - -sche (discuss) 15:20, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Grunts

I've noticed that mhm is not a word in Finnish. People might understand me, but it sounds painfully foreign. How would it be translated into Finnish? Mm? How would you even write that, especially with the rising intonation? What about the negative word? I think that's the same in both languages. ~ heyzeuss 12:05, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Judging by the audio provided on the page it doesn't sound painfully non-Finnish to me. Pretty much the same sound is used to mumble a "yes" in Finland. The question is, how to put it in writing. I wasn't able to find any examples by searching. The sound has been described with the expression "ynähtää myöntävästi". --Hekaheka (talk) 06:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Heyzeuss Perhaps yhym. Books.google/Finnish only search gives lots of examples. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Eur Ing

Is this really English and Finnish? --Pious Eterino (talk) 22:24, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, same abbreviation is used in Finnish: https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEANI --Hekaheka (talk) 06:33, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Gemination in rhymes

What's your opinion on whether final gemination (/ˣ/, such as in hame) should be considered separately in rhymes, so -ameˣ instead of -ame? In other words, do words like nalle and palle (palleˣ) rhyme? Jyril seemed to think it should not matter and that they would rhyme (such as in Rhymes:Finnish/oke), but the few sources discussing this I can find state they should matter and the two examples I gave would not rhyme, such as [8] saying "Joissakin kielissä esiintyy myös ns. silmäriimejä, sanoja jotka sointuvat yhteen kirjoitusasultaan mutta eivät ääntämykseltään. Myös suomessa on joitakin tällaisia tapauksia, mutta ne liittyvät jakoriimiin. Kysymyksessä on sanan loppuhenkosen aiheuttama ääntämyksellisyys...". — surjection ⟨?⟩ 15:20, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, thus I can only give an opinion. I tend to agree with Jyril. I may be wrong but my reasoning is this. When we speak of rhyming we speak of the last word in a line of a poem. In normal speech final gemination does not affect the pronunciation of the last word in a sentence and the first word of the next, because there's a short break between the sentences. If we assume that there's a short break at the end of a line of a poem, the final gemination should not apply. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems so. I asked a friend of mine, who consulted Kotus who seemed to agree that final gemination on its own does not matter in rhyming. For the record, I'm doing this to create a new Finnish pronunciation template that would automatically create IPA, hyphenation and rhyming. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 09:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Rock hound

What do you call a rock hound in Finnish? What about related phrases, like hunting for rocks? ~ heyzeuss 06:24, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it's simply kivien keräilijä (“collector of stones”). Hunting for rocks would similarly be kivien keräily. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

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Making trades

Is it correct to say:

Vaihdan autoni veneeseesi.

I'll trade you my car for your boat.

~ heyzeuss 08:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. ~ Hekaheka

Kaikkia

I am trying to figure out when to use kaikkia and when to just use kaikki instead, especially where the word being modified is a plural object. Can you tell me if these examples are right?

As a determiner

Kilpailun osallistujat olivat kaikki naisia.

As an adjective

Ruoka kiinnostaa kaikkia naisia.

~ heyzeuss 06:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Both are correct. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:04, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Finnish rhymes

The reason herastuomari had such a long rhyme is because the rhyming starts from the last stressed syllable (<1> <2>), and since the stresses go /ˈherɑsˌtuo̯mɑri/, the rhyming pattern will be uomɑri (since the initial consonant(s) in that syllable do not matter). — surjection ⟨?⟩ 22:29, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I get that, but is it so in real life? If you are writing a poem, herastuomari and tuomari rhyme perfectly with e.g. porvari and kommari. Shouldn't the rhyming, as a default value, rather depend on two last syllables? --Hekaheka (talk) 22:39, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Colloquial speech often disregards some rigid rules - I don't see why this is any different. If you were writing a poem, tuomari and porvari do not technically rhyme, and anyone more versed in poetry - or at the very least the average pedant - should be able to point that out. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 23:26, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

That being said, this is only when talking about "perfect rhymes" (puhdas riimi) - not all rhymes need to be perfect. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 23:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I remember I had a discussion many years ago with someone who was sort of authority in English Wiktionary and they were of the opinion that we were not necessarily looking for perfect rhymes. Of course, as soon as we say that, we leave the world of beautiful definitions and we may have differing opinions on the rhyming of individual words. The editors who have added rhymes seem to have largely followed the latter way, but I'm fine with the perfect rhyming principle if that's the way we want to go. The problem with perfect rhyming in Finnish is that we end up with a lot of words which rhyme with nothing or with very few words such as yksinään and edessään. Eino Leino seems to have been of the opinion that rhyming does not need to be perfect. This is from my favorite poem:

Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä

Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,

kun hanki on hohtava alla,

kun taivas kirkasna kaareutuu -

mut hauskempi hiihtää, kun ruskavi puu,

tuul' ulvovi, polku on ummessa

ja tuisku on taivahalla.

Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,

kun ystävä häll' on myötä,

kun latu on aukaistu edessään -

mut parempi hiihdellä yksinään,

tiens' itse aukaista itselleen

ja yksin uhmata yötä.

Rhymes:English seems to state otherwise - the definition of English rhymes there matches the definition of English perfect rhymes. I would say that leaving the default auto-generated rhyme from the template is fine enough, but we should define the rules in Rhymes:Finnish. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 09:23, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the English rhyming was based on perfect rhymes already then. It works well in English because the rhymes generally don't grow very long and thus the rhyming categories don't get too numerous and short. The conclusion then was that the system does not need to be the same in every language. But let's do as you say, i.e. keep the template as it is. At least there's a clear logic behind it. And, ten years ago we didn't have a template which would do the rhyming. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:48, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course, if we do want to change the system later, leaving the template to generate the rhymes is still the better option, since then all we have to do is change the template and how it generates the rhymes. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 10:21, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Spiritually Finnish

I've come across a Chinese neologism for "spiritually Finnish," which is 精芬 (jīngfēn). The character for fēn, 芬, looks a lot like Matti from the comic Finnish Nightmares, and evidently he has sympathy among Chinese people. They identify with him by referring to themselves as 精芬.

精芬

jīngfēn

Spiritually Finnish

Traditional and simplified

精 jīng

芬 fen

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2018/aug/05/why-do-millions-of-chinese-people-want-to-be-spiritually-finnish

~ heyzeuss 21:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

It's cool to be Finnish! --Hekaheka (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Ahead and behind on time

I saw on the edistää entry that you can say, "Kelloni edistää kolme minuuttia." How do you say other things like that, when you are speaking more idiomatically, without "normal" words like ajoissa and myöhässä, for example,

My watch is three minutes slow.

I am a month ahead on rent.

I am a month behind on rent.

~ heyzeuss 10:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I think there's a difference between edistää and olla edellä. I think edistää is a dynamic expression and olla edellä is static. If I hear Kelloni edistää kolme minuuttia I find the statement incomplete and expect also to hear how much time it takes for the clock to gain those three minutes e.g.:

Kelloni edistää kolme minuuttia vuorokaudessa.

My watch runs three minutes fast per day.

If my friends' watch is constantly three minutes ahead (i.e. it is not set in the correct time), or it is three minutes ahead at the moment I would expect them to say:

Kelloni on kolme minuuttia edellä.

My watch is three minutes ahead.

or maybe:

Kelloni edistää. Se on nyt kolme minuuttia edellä.

My watch runs fast. It is now three minutes ahead.

The antonym of edistää is jätättää (“to run slow”) and the antonym of olla edellä is olla jäljessä.

My opinion is not necessarily universally accepted. I asked my wife how she understands the sentence Kelloni edistää kolme minuuttia and she found first nothing strange about it - it surely means that "My watch is three minutes fast" (at the moment). When I explained the problem that I had with the expression she wasn't so sure anymore. Kielitoimiston sanakirja (https://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi) seems to be slightly on my side. Their only usage example for edistää is:

Kello edisti minuutin vuorokaudessa.

The clock ran fast by one minute per day.

Kielitoimisto gives no example on jätättää but their definition sounds dynamic to me:

käy liian hitaasti, jää jälkeen

runs too slow, is left behind

With this prologue I would translate your examples like this:

My watch is three minutes slow.

Kelloni on kolme minuuttia jäljessä.

I am a month ahead on rent.

Olen maksanut vuokran kuukauden etuajassa.

I am a month behind on rent.

Olen vuokranmaksussa kuukauden myöhässä.

--Hekaheka (talk) 20:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I just edited the entry edistää in accordance with what I wrote above. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the thorough research and answer. It's really hard to get information like this from friends and family. ~ heyzeuss 22:05, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Estonian

Hi,

You guys (Finnish) editors, have done a fantastic job for the Finnish language coverage. It seems Estonian is very close and is also described in books. How hard would be for you to pick up and add more Estonian coverage here, including inflections or do you prefer to stay in your comfort zone :) ? I don't think we have any native speakers active and no-one is really working on it, which is a shame. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to say, but I'm not necessarily thrilled. There is an excellent Estonian dictionary[9] in the net, and I have used it in adding Estonian translations to English entries, but I don't feel comfortable with adding whole Estonian entries. Although Finnish and Estonian look and sound much the same they are most of the time not readily mutually understandable. I would not know the nuances of Estonian and I would be bound to produce a lot of crap. Another reason is that there are still thousands and thousands of Finnish words missing, see here and some of the existing stuff is not very good. Contributing to a good English-Finnish-English dictionary remains my primary mission in Wiktionary. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:52, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, understood. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Finns and French

I am wondering if you are aware of w:Finnish Canadians, where w:Official Languages Act (Canada) specifies French as an official language. It's not just France that uses French. And Finns in Canada are educated in French and English, thus using and appearing in French. -- 65.94.169.16 03:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I knew that French is an official language of Canada but had the impression that Finnish Canadians would chiefly live in Ontario and to lesser extent in other English-speaking provinces. I also knew that Saku Koivu has played in French-speaking Montreal. I still found it strange that there would be French entry for the surname Koivu. The surnames, with few exceptions such as Shakespeare, tend to be spelled in the same way in every language that uses Latin alphabet. I just don't find the prospect of potentially having separate sections for Koivu in Norwegian Bokmål, Nynorsk, Swedish, Sami, Danish, German, Dutch, French, Polish, Czech, Italian, Icelandic, Estonian, Latvian etc. (all languages of ice hockey playing countries in which Koivu is probably known) to bring much additional value to the project. The only content of each, with the exception of inflected languages such as Estonian and Hungarian, would be to state that Koivu is a surname in that language.

But then, on the other hand, mine does not seem to be the only way of thinking about this issue. I opened a discussion about this topic in the Beer parlour and my view wasn't universally accepted. Thus, if you feel that adding French entries for Finnish surnames adds useful information, I guess we can re-add them. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

afrosuomalainen

Hei, en tiedä huomasitko, mutta nuo muutoksesi vaikuttaisivat olevan annetun lähteen vastaisia sivulla afrosuomalainen. Tuo lähdeviite Kielitoimiston sanakirjaan sanoo, että "afrosuomalainen -- suomalaisista joilla on sukujuuria Saharan eteläpuolisessa Afrikassa", minkä perusteella siis esim. pohjoisafrikkalaiset eivät ole afrosuomalaisia. Myös Wikipedian artikkeli: "Afrosuomalaiset ovat suomalaisia, joiden sukujuuret ovat ainakin osittain Saharan eteläpuolisen Afrikan alkuperäisväestössä". Noiden mukaan "afrosuomalaisella" siis viitataan vain tiettyihin etnisyyksiin (eli Afrikan mustiin), eikä kaikkiin afrikkalaisiin eli ei esim. Afrikan arabeihin tai Etelä-Afrikan buureihin. Yst.terv. 94.158.245.203 13:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Korjaan, kiitos huomautuksesta. Minusta alkuperäinen oli vähän rönsyilevä, mutta taisin lyhentää liikaa. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Ereyesterday and overmorrow

I just found out about the words ereyesterday and overmorrow. That made me laugh. I have no idea how to deal with them in relationship to toissapäivänä and ylihuomenna. The translations of the English words point first to day before yesterday and day after tomorrow, and those have translations to the Finnish words toissapäivä and ylihuominen. Ylihuominen and ylihuomenna could use some examples and usage notes to show how they are most commonly used. ~ heyzeuss 21:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

It's very simple, unless there's something that I didn't get:

The adverb "ereyesterday" = adverb "day before yesterday" = adverb "toissa päivänä".

The noun "ereyesterday" = noun "day before yesterday" = noun "toissa päivä".

The adverb "overmorrow" = adverb "day after tomorrow" = adverb "ylihuomenna".

The noun "overmorrow" = noun "day after tomorrow" = noun "ylihuominen".

There are examples in both articles ylihuominen and ylihuomenna. There was no usex under toissa päivä - added. I think the Finnish terms behave in a sentence very much in the same way as their English counterparts. What sort of example you think should be added? Note that "toissa päivä" and "toissa päivänä" consist of two words. "Toissapäivä" and "toissapäivänä" are commonly used, but they are considered misspellings. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

toissapäivänä is so unbelievably common (even appearing in many Kotus texts, and VISK mentions it without pointing out that "it's wrong"; see § 649) that whether it's really a "misspelling" is debatable. I would prefer describing it as an alternative form, even if there's a (nonstandard) label attached to it. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 12:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I based my comment on Kotus article Yhdyssana vai ei: nurin päin vai nurinpäin?[10], but I agree of the commonness of toissapäivänä. I'm happy with the "nonstandard" label. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

uussisko

You might want to check the gloss - surely you mean "daughter of..." and not "son of..." La más guay (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that was exactly what I meant. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

emä

In this edit I merged some derived terms. You might want to check I did it right. Perhaps there are some other "Derived terms" that are compound terms too. Pious Eterino (talk) 14:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I actually rolled it back. This is because we have the practice of putting compound terms and otherwise derived terms in separate tables in the Finnish entries. The way you proposed is by no means worse in any way, but I find it generally a good idea to stick to a standard once it has been established. I think it makes the life easier for the user of Wiktionary: when they read a new entry they don't need to first figure out how this particular entry is structured. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

lyhtykoiso

The type species (P. alkekengi) has been assigned to another genus and is now Alkekengi officinarum. DCDuring (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

tamppu

you created the page for tamppu ... would you know offhand where you found this word? it came up in a discussion offsite where i was looking for words with a certain consonant pattern and the native Finnish speakers said that they'd never heard of this word and couldn't find it in a traditional dictionary (Kielitoimiston sanakirja). I'm curious in particular to see if this is a native Finnish word. Thank you, —Soap— 01:15, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I added the term ten years ago, I don't remember what triggered the action. The word isn't in Kielitoimiston sanakirja, but it can be found in the printed Nykysuomen sanakirja which contains more than 200,000 entries. It is available as pdf here: [11].

It seems that the word has largely fallen out of use. I'll label it archaic. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:31, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

teennäinen

What do you thing of teennäinen as a translation of fake? I've had trouble finding an equivalent word for fake in Finnish, especially since feikki is used quite a lot in informal speech. I couldn't find the word teennäinen in Wiktionary when looking for translations for fake in Wiktionary, but I did find teennäisyys out in the wild when reading about the voices of audiobook narrators. There are a few senses for translations for fake, one for things that are overtly artificial and another for things that are meant to deceive. I would add teennäinen as a translation for the first sense. What do you think? ~ heyzeuss 10:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

merkitseminen, ravitseminen, hävittäminen, keskiluokkaistuminen

Layout issues. Crowley666 (talk) 08:15, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

@Crowley666 My justification for this layout is to avoid having two identical declension tables on one page. You think it's a lesser evil? --Hekaheka (talk) 12:21, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Instead of an identical table, we can also write "the same as noun". I don't really care about this, @Erutuon are you OK with these? Crowley666 (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

@Crowley666 I changed them. I wasn't completeley happy with the layout myself. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

NKS available for download

Nykysuomen sanakirja has been made available for download. ~ heyzeuss 18:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, you already saw it. Good. ~ heyzeuss 15:41, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I was in a hurry when I saw your message. Thanks for sharing the information. I had actually heard about it but had sort of forgotten it. --Hekaheka (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Dates

Dates are sometimes written differently than the way that they are spoken. Like "From April tenth through twelfth," but it's written "April 10-12." Likewise, in Finnish, it might be written one way, "10-12 huhtikuulla," but it is spoken, "kymmenennestä kahdenteentoista huhtikuulla." Or is it really spoken that way? Often Finnish people just give up even trying to say it long form, and they say instead, "huhtikuulla kymmentenä viiva kahtenatoista." Or something like that. People do similar things in English. How is it "properly" spoken in Finnish? ~ heyzeuss 17:46, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Found some answers again at uusikielemme.fi. First of all, the month is partitive. It looks like if you want to say "viiva," then it's "kymmenes viiva kahdestoista huhtikuuta." Or a little bit more naturally, "kymmenen ja kahdentoista huhtikuuta välisen ajan." ~ heyzeuss 18:47, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

There are several alternatives for 10-12.4. Viiva is regarded as colloquial, but it is nonetheless commonly used in speech.

huhtikuun kymmenennestä kahdenteentoista

kymmenennestä kahdenteentoista huhtikuuta

kymmenes viiva kahdestoista huhtikuuta

huhtikuun kymmenes viiva kahdestoista

Your source seems to add päivään to all. I don't think it is necessary. Everybody understands that huhtikuun viides and huhtikuun viides päivä are same thing. --Hekaheka (talk) 01:36, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. ~ heyzeuss 09:10, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Surjection/fiindexredlinks

I noticed you use this list. I thought about removing all the entries that have been created since (i.e. are now in Category:Finnish lemmas). Is this OK or would this mess with any plans you have? — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 13:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

No, that's ok. I'm slo-o-o-wly creating the missing entries. Thus I only need the redlinks. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

hämymyyrikkö

Did you make a copy-paste error here or something? You've defined it as a synonym of itself and included the declension for the other term which you said is a dated synonym of this. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 10:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll fix it. Thanks for the heads up. I'm in the process of adding zillions of rodents. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:46, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I see, nice. Always cool to see more entries being added, especially in Finnish. Keep up the good work. :) Acolyte of Ice (talk) 12:19, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

quickie / pikainen

Many years ago, it seems like you added pikainen as a translation for quickie. Is this really correct, can pikainen be used as a noun? Skalman (talk) 23:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

It might, colloquially in limited context (such as having a quick beer), but it seems to be chiefly used in the plural for brief sexual act. It's probably safer to write:

• Finnish: pika-, pikainen (added in front of whatever is done quickly) --Hekaheka (talk) 07:04, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Skalman (talk) 08:42, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

kangaspäällyksinen

It looks like you made a mistake in the declension table here; the table seems to list forms not for this term but rather the term that you've said it's a synonym of. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 12:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for heads-up, fixed. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:27, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

mala

You mentioned this in the jäniskenguru entry, but it doesn't have a Finnish section yet. Could you add it please? :) Acolyte of Ice (talk) 12:10, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Done--Hekaheka (talk) 12:11, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

kyykkyineen

Is this definition really correct? The lemma entry lists this as the comitative plural in the declension table which, to me at least, seems to suggest it is the normal comitative meaning, without the addition of a possessive suffix as the definition you added suggests. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 13:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

It is correct. Comitative is the only case that always requires a possessive suffix for nouns. That's why we show it with a possessive suffix in the table. For simplicity we only show the 3rd person form which happens to be the same in singular and plural. The other forms are:

sg_1st kyykkyineni

sg_2nd kyykkyinesi

pl_1st kyykkyinemme

pl_2nd kyykkyinenne

Hekaheka (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I see, interesting. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Apostrophes

For your information, we decided to recently change the representation of apostrophes - all entry titles now use the "straight" ASCII apostrophe, but the proper Finnish apostrophe will be displayed in the page whenever possible and can still be used in e.g. links (provided the correct templates are used). This is for normalization reasons. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 14:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

kaunokainen

The last definition was "plant of genus Bellis". I generalized it, assuming that Finnish speakers would not be so botanically discriminating as to excluded Bellis-like plants, just as English speakers call plants of many genera daisies. Feel free to revert. DCDuring (talk) 12:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

kilogram-forces

You are the only human to have edited this, defining it as plural of kilogram-force. I believe it is incorrect -- the standard plural is kilograms-force. Nothing links to it. Are you happy to speedy-delete it? --Enginear 23:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I believe you, if you say so. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)