Header levels matterEdit

Etymology headers are at level 3 and PoS headers at level 4 in entries with multiple etymologies, subordinate headers being at level 5. For a more complete explanation see WT:ELE. DCDuring TALK 14:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


Oddly enough, this word was independently invented (i) by my sister in the 1990s and (ii) by her friend a few years later. Escaping the plate seems to be a general habit of peas that causes comment. Equinox 14:55, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Nice to know I'm not the only one with a warped sense of humour! We can't make a Wiktionary entry out of it though... Donnanz 16:29, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


There's also {{da-noun-infl}}. Maybe that's why not all the forms are in the {{da-noun}} template. —CodeCat 21:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks. I'll see if it works when I make some new Danish entries. Donnanz (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Update: That template gives you a table. I won't use it; I have an aversion to tables. Donnanz (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


Would you add {{Babel}} to your user page? I'd appreciate it. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Alternative forms for NorwegianEdit

Hi. I disagree with e.g. putting Bokmål terms under the alternative forms header in Nynorsk entries. I think this header should be reserverd for real alternative forms; i.e. forms from the same writtend standard. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but as long as the alternative form is marked (Bokmål) it should be helpful to users, surely? I have done the same for akademiker, showing the alternative form of akademikar (Nynorsk). It does show that the spelling differs between languages, and explains why there is no equivalent Bokmål or Nynorsk entry for that spelling. Donnanz (talk) 12:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
It sure can be useful; I just don't think that it is "appropriate" to put it under the alternative forms header. Though, I guess not much point in debating this any further before the poll has ended. Just thought I'd mention it. --Njardarlogar (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Would the heading ====See also==== be more acceptable to you, using ((l-nb|xxxxx)) or ((l-nn|xxxxx)) as the case may be? (I had to use the wrong brackets).

  • As for the vote, I can't help noticing that those voting in support of the proposal for unified (!) Norwegian normally have absolutely nothing to do with Norwegian. It's really a case of meddling in something they know nothing about. In the meantime I am trying to split as many nouns as possible into Bokmål and Nynorsk where applicable, so if the vote goes against us someone will have an awful amount of unravelling to do. Next word on the agenda: toalettpapir....
  • Something that has been confusing me today - is vass in vassbøffel (also vannbøffel in Bokmål) derived from å vasse, which I guess means to wade? Donnanz (talk) 21:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
See also should be better, yes. Vassbøffel is derived from vass- (dictionary). --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Ah, vass-. Thanks a lot! Donnanz (talk) 22:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Category:Norwegian Bokmål terms derived from New LatinEdit

I fixed this for you, for future reference. —CodeCat 16:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Also fixed Category:nb:Cookware. It looks like other editors have had to fix several dozen categories that you created in the past. —CodeCat 16:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

  • OK, thanks; I'll have to see what I'm doing wrong. Donnanz (talk) 16:48, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


Is this also used for the pronunciation feature that is called stød in Danish? —CodeCat 18:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Yes, støt is the equivalent of stød in Danish. This often happens, where a "t" is used in Norwegian, a "d" is used in Danish (not always "t"; compare mann with mand). Donnanz (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Then it should probably be included in the definitions. —CodeCat 18:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Do you mean all the definitions listed under stød? I will when I confirm them, I'm not doing it willy-nilly. It's early days, the entry for støt didn't exist before today, and it doesn't even appear in the Norwegian Wiktionary. Donnanz (talk) 18:41, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Converting Norwegian entriesEdit

Do you find it fair to convert unified Norwegian entries to split entries, given the absence of consensus for this? (See e.g. diff). --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:04, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

  • As the vote for unified Norwegian failed, I feel that there is a consensus for both Bokmål and Nynorsk entries. In the case for "ball", which has obviously caught your attention and prompted your question, I was adding a 2nd definition that wasn't there before, so while adding it I also created an entry for Nynorsk. But generally I am leaving unified entries alone (some are quite old), except where there are good reasons for changing them. Donnanz (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Re: "I feel that there is a consensus for both Bokmål and Nynorsk entries": absolutely not; the vote made it absolutely clear there is no consensus for having the split into Bokmål and Nynorsk entries. The diff that I noted is not an isolated case; in the last weeks, I noticed a systematic pattern of your replacing unified Norwegian with Bokmål and Nynorsk, creating exactly the sort of duplication that was opposed in the vote by the supporters of the vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I couldn't help noticing that those who voted for unified Norwegian are not contributors to Norwegian. Almost all who voted against the proposal are contributors to Norwegian, so that fact speaks for itself. Yes, I have replaced some entries, but it's not systematic - often I have found inflection tables which are incomplete or inaccurate, in other cases inflections have been entered for Bokmål and not for Nynorsk. There have also been Nynorsk entries made without one for Bokmål (still are). There has also been a large number of Tbot entries - about 500, now reduced to 250, all have needed confirmation and inflections added. I am also adding new entries, and have four lined up at the moment. Or would you rather I stopped contributing altogether? Donnanz (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Do you admit that the vote (Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-03/Unified Norwegian) showed there is no consensus for keeping Bokmål and Nynorsk entries as separate languages? --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:06, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Try looking from a different angle. There is no consensus for unified Norwegian. The vote failed for that reason. They tried doing it in Norway too, but that failed. Donnanz (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Is your answer to my question "yes"? Or "no"? Or "I don't know"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
There is a consensus for keeping separate languages on the grounds that all those who voted for unified Norwegian do not contribute to it. The vote was flawed for that reason. I can't vote in the forthcoming Scottish referendum as I don't live in Scotland. Donnanz (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
My jar of mustard on looking for entries to convert is right here. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:16, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Ridiculous Norwegian repetitionEdit

The more of the ridiculously duplicate entries that you have created I have seen, the more supportive I am of keeping Norwegian as one language.


==Norwegian Bokmål==

{{head|nb|adjective form}}

# {{form of|definite singular|sørafrikansk|lang=nb}}
# {{plural of|sørafrikansk|lang=nb}}

==Norwegian Nynorsk==

{{head|nn|adjective form}}

# {{form of|definite singular|sørafrikansk|lang=nn}}
# {{plural of|sørafrikansk|lang=nn}}
==Norwegian Bokmål==

From {{term|Skandinavia||Scandinavia|lang=no}}

{{head|nb|noun|g=m|definite singular|skandinaven|indefinite plural|skandinaver|definite plural|skandinavene}}

# a [[Scandinavian]] (''person from Scandinavia'')

* {{R:The Bokmål Dictionary}}

==Norwegian Nynorsk==

From {{term|Skandinavia||Scandinavia|lang=no}}

{{head|nn|noun|g=m|definite singular|skandinaven|indefinite plural|skandinavar|definite plural|skandinavane}}

# a [[Scandinavian]] (''as above'')

* {{R:The Nynorsk Dictionary}}

The "as above" phrasing is especially troubling, since each entry in a language should be independent on entries for other languages. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:23, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

  • There was already separate Bokmål and Nynorsk entries for afrikansk, so to be consistent there should be separate entries for sørafrikansk and sørafrikanske. In addition sørafrikansk was on the Tbot list since 2009, so it was high time it was removed. There was already separate entries under South African.
  • As Norwegian Nynorsk is always going to follow Norwegian Bokmål, with no other language in between, I have always thought it logical to use "as above" in Nynorsk entries.
  • Are you always going to criticise everything I do? I think that's called victimisation. Donnanz (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Nynorsk and Bokmål etymologies are rarely 100% the same. The short form etymologies tend to be the same; but in the longer forms; I don't think that has to be the case (most Scandinavian etymologies tend to be the same in the short form, by the way; for anyone reading this). I think they should be duplicated even if they are 100% the same; that way, we don't have to make any assumptions (and it avoids the risk that a change made the to first etymology may not apply to the one below).
As for duplication, Dan Polansky is being ridiculously selective. Grammatical forms are shared between all the Scandivian languages. Random examples: rart, mørkt, billige, halve, lokale. --Njardarlogar (talk) 13:20, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Thankyou, Njardarlogar. A welcome (and unsolicited) comment. Donnanz (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Re: "Nynorsk and Bokmål etymologies are rarely 100% the same.": Do you have a source for the claim? Or do you have examples substantiating the claim for at least some Nynorsk and Bokmål etymologies? --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:38, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
For starters, Bokmål stems from Danish while Nynorsk stems from Landsmål, which in turn was based on Norwegian dialects; with the standardisation process relying heavily on Old Norse. Most of the vocabulary in Bokmål and Nynorsk should fall into this category. A few examples below:
  • brød ('bread'; Nynorsk): ON brauð > Landsmål/early Nynorsk braud > contemporary Nynorsk brød
  • brød ('bread'; Bokmål): ON brauð > Danish brød > contemporary Bokmål brød
  • brann ('fire'; Nynorsk): ON brandr > Landsmål/early Nynorsk brand > contemporary Nynorsk brann
  • brann ('fire'; Bokmål): ON brandr > Danish brand > contemporary Bokmål brann
  • to ('two'; Nynorsk): ON tvá > Landsmål/early Nynorsk tvo > contemporary Nynorsk to
  • to ('two'; Bokmål): ON tvá > Danish to > contemporary Bokmål to
  • takk ('thanks'; Nynorsk): ON þǫkk > Landsmål/early Nynorsk takk > contemporary Nynorsk takk
  • takk ('thanks'; Bokmål): ON þǫkk > Danish tak > contemporary Bokmål takk
  • skog ('forest'; Nynorsk): ON skógr > Landsmål/early Nynorsk skog > contemporary Nynorsk skog
  • skog ('forest'; Bokmål): ON skógr > Danish skov > contemporary Bokmål skog
As for references, that's easier said than done. I don't know of any relevant references in English, and they are hard to come by even in Norwegian; especially online. Ivar Aasen's Norsk Grammatik ('Norwegian Grammar') from 1864 is available in PDF format here. It played a crucial part in his creation of Landsmål. It's written in contemporary Danish (there might be smaller Norwegian influences present), which means that it allows for an easy comparison between his Landsmål and the origin of Bokmål.
It's not true that e.g. Bokmål skog comes from Danish skov, as my writing above could suggest; Norwegian skog comes from ON skógr. So some of the steps in the etymologies above are more "true" etymologies than others. At the same time, it would be incorrect to forget about Bokmål's past; Bokmål never had a clean break with Danish: Landsmål was created more or less from scratch, Bokmål was gradually and carefully created from Danish. In Bokmål, skog had to compete with/replace skov, in Landsmål/Nynorsk it was the sole alternative decades earlier. In other words: skog had a different path into Bokmål than it had into Nynorsk. As far as I can see, that concerns the etymology.
@Donnanz I have a habit of keeping talk pages where I once replied on my watchlist; and I kind of had to reply to this stuff once I saw it ;-) --Njardarlogar (talk) 22:03, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I see. You're far more methodical in that respect than I am! What you have listed proves that Norwegian etymology is not an easy subject. Donnanz (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
What is the source of the above eymologies? Where can I verify them using Wikipedia referencing standards? Or are they your invention? --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Is "Landsmål/early Nynorsk braud" attested as per WT:ATTEST? If so, what are the attesting quotations? --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Given that braud (or Braud) was in use almost exclusively during the first half of the 1900s and earlier, attesting it is not the easiest task. Here is some attestation of braud that I did via the Internet:
Ikkje braud dei bar meg,
og brygg ikkje;
ned eg nidstirde,
tok upp runer,
ropande tok dei,
ned att der frå eg fall.
Ein skulde hava Kaffi, ein annan Øl; og ein tok Braud til Ølet, daa han ikkje hadde fenget Middagsmat.
Many more examples can be found be in digitalised articles from the publication Fedraheimen (1877-1891) here. Here they (Ivar Aasen-tunet) have written about their digitalisation.
As for the sources of the rest of the etymologies; I don't think there is a single source that lists them all, so a lot of different sources would have to be compiled. Here is an example regarding to > tvo from the Norwegian Language Council. There are four sample texts (Tekstprøver; supposed to be identical apart from spelling) on the bottom of the page, and in the last one tvo has been replaced with to (in the first text, you can even find the form tvau, which is neuter of either tvo or tvei).
The frustrating thing here is that for anyone who has at least a basic knowledge about modern (1800-present) Norwegian lingual history, etymologies/steps like the ones I proved above are common knowledge. It's like someone with a very limited knowledge about the European languages asking for evidence that French and English are separate languages. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:02, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
The disanalogy to English vs. French could not be greater. It suffices to present two sound recodings of complete sentences, one in English and one in French, to show to anyone, with very little knowledge of the languages, that they are separate languages. What you seem to be saying is that the allegged etymologies are a common myth passed by verbal tradition. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:19, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
What I am saying is that if you had read books or texts on the subject, you would have become acquainted with these etymologies/steps; just like if you actually compared English with French rather than requiring sources for their differences. I just posted an example of such a text. Sourcing the rest of the etymologies would likely take many more links, unless I was lucky to stumble upon one that had gathered them all (my examples were random, after all). --Njardarlogar (talk) 12:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
If you ask me to provide sourcing for English etymologies, I point you to Century 1911 and multiple online dictionaries, including Merriam-Webster. If you ask me to provide sourcing for Czech etymologies (much fewer speakers), I point you to a published etymological dictionary. When I ask you to source the above claims that magnify trivial differences in etymology, you start speaking of common knowledge and the need of many links. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Some of the steps I've mentioned above are purely about spelling, and thus not necessarily considered relevant for quick etymologies. Those who do reflect differences in pronunciation do not necessarily reflect changes in the spoken language; i.e. the spoken equivalents of braud and brød coexisted, and probably still do. The Norwegian dictionaries that I have read do not focus on such details; they typically only focus on different languages or different phases of languages. I can source the bit where brauð > brød with the Nynorsk Dictionary, but for the intermediate step braud I will have to go to sources detailing the changes introduced with spelling reforms. Like here:
  • Ulempen var at disse bøkene ikke hadde noen ensartet skrivemåte, så det meldte seg snart behov for fastere regler. De kom i 1901, og innførte mange talespråkspregede former, f.eks. kasta (for kastade), fare (for faret, partisipp), anna (for annat), brød (for braud), dør (for dyre).
In sum: I do not know of any sources listing up the etymologies like I do above, but each step is taken directly from sources that do exist and that I have actually read. So to prove the etymologies above, I would have to list each individual source proving each step. --Njardarlogar (talk) 16:48, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Dan Polansky, the issue has long been discussed and the only reasonable way is to treat the two Norwegian languages as separate languages in the English Wiktionary. There will no doubt be some duplication between Swedish, Danish, Norwegian Bokmål and Norwegian Nynorsk. But now, finally, we are seeing real progress on the Norwegian entries. Both languages are now above 10,000 entries, which is still far behind Danish (26,000), Swedish (91,000), and Finnish (116,000). After Norwegian (unified approach) reached 6,000 entries in 2009, there hasn't been much progress until finally this year. --LA2 (talk) 01:19, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


Unrelated to your question, but it is my talk page: I came across the word "kenotaf" (cenotaph) yesterday; it's not in any online dictionary, but has an entry in Wikipedia. What is the etymology of that word, how common is it, and is it worth an entry? I did establish that it's a masculine noun. Donnanz (talk) 10:18, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to look: it's entered under cenotaph. Donnanz (talk) 10:31, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Your edit summaryEdit

"Please delete - replaced by fyrstedømme (correct spelling) Category:Candidates for speedy delection"

Candidates for fast food? :) —CodeCat 21:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Hmm, yes indeed. I hope I've corrected it. It's an entry with a spelling error I want deleted, and I create one myself. Donnanz (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)


Hi! I know that you also speak Danish, and speak Danish at a more fluent level than me, and are a more experienced editor here than me as well, so this is why I've come to you. For the entry bukser and some derived terms, the noun is plural only. I know we can just say { { head | da | noun }} for the header, and that is 100% okay. Well but for { { da-noun-infl | ------- } } it does not give a plural only table. I can make it so that it can give a singular only table, but the people who have worked on this template have not made a way to have a plural only table. Could you please, if I could ask a favor from you, help me resolve this problem so I can have this for our Danish definitions? Thank you very much. Regards, Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 04:14, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Let's get one thing straight - I study Danish, I don't speak it.
  • There are two ways bukser can be used, as listed by Den Dansk Ordbog - bukser / bukserne (the usual usage), and what is described as "fagligt" (used in the trade) - buks / buksen / bukser / bukserne.
  • Personally I avoid templates when they don't give the result I prefer, and many templates have shortcomings. I also avoid using tables as I dislike them. In this case you could try { { head | da | noun | g=p | definite plural | bukserne } }, or maybe { { head | da | noun | plural only | definite plural | bukserne } } if you want it listed as Danish pluralia tantum as at present. Donnanz (talk) 08:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I was mistaken. I too study Danish, which is one thing we have in common. As a matter of fact, it is my main language of study.

Well anyway, so how are we going to word this in our Danish definitions? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 21:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Just try one (or both) methods I suggested. Preview your changes before saving, to see how it looks. Donnanz (talk) 21:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Removing templateEdit

Why this edit? --Njardarlogar (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

That template wasn't working for two reasons, perhaps because it's an irregular noun. It wasn't registering as a lemma (Norwegian Nynorsk lemmas), and besides that clicking on an inflection didn't take you straight to the entry for the inflection. For those two reasons I rewrote it. The regular templates have been adapted for lemma purposes (nn-noun-n1 etc.), but not this one.

  • By the way, I have decided to leave Nynorsk verbs alone - too complex for me. Donnanz (talk) 15:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I've added that functionality to the template now. Using specific templates makes it easier to
a) keep track of different classes and groups of words
b) update inflections whenever there are changes to entire classes at a time
It can be tricky to make templates work with all possible exceptions; but for the most part, they are very simple to code.
By the way, what it is that you find complex about Nynorsk verbs? --Njardarlogar (talk) 20:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Rewriting templates is beyond me, I'm afraid. When I mentioned the lack of an ABC index for Bokmål and Nynorsk files, I was coerced into adapting the Danish template, which is exactly the same, to nb and nn. It's not something I want to do every day.
    • Nynorsk verbs - I'm confused by the two different forms; ending in -a and -e. I notice you prefer to enter the -a form as the main entry, with the -e form as a supplementary entry. Anyway, I am quite content to leave nn verbs to you to enter.
    • I have just done entries for torden and tordenvær, but I am confused about whether plural forms are actually used. There are no equivalent Nynorsk entries to look at for guidance.
    • I wonder whether you could have a look at skyi; I suspect it's a Nynorsk side form, but I'm not sure. Donnanz (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The -a vs. -e suffixes are comparable to the class of Bokmål verbs that may end in either -a or -et in past forms, only that in this case, it's the infinitive that has the variation. I chose -a for the main entries because that's the traditional ending (cf. Old Norse, Faroese and Icelandic (and Swedish as well)) and it's how my dialect is. I have never seen theses rule written anywhere, but I think it is correct to say that the following rules hold (you can always rely on the online dictionary in this case, I think):
  • All non-compound Nynorsk verbs with more than one syllable can end in both -a and -e in the infinitive.
  • No two-letter Nynorsk verb can end in both -a and -e
The countability of nouns is a bit tricky. I don't find that the online dictionary that I most commonly use is very trustworthy - it seems to have inflections included by default, and only some entries have had them removed where appropriate. Google searches usually provide some clues for whether they are countable or not. I'd say that tordenvær is countable, while torden is not. Yet you can probably find some instances where torden is used for individual instances of thunder and thus is countable (there are other words for that, though). --Njardarlogar (talk) 09:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for dealing with skyi. I'm trying to clear some entries out of "Norwegian noun forms" etc., moving them to Bokmål and/or Nynorsk.
    • torden / tordenvær - yes, that's the conclusion I reached. Torden is listed as a countable noun in Den Danske Ordbog, which didn't help. The Norwegian dictionary we use was better before they "improved" it. I also use Lexin Bokmålordbok and Nynorskordbok for guidance. But I still do my research on Norwegian Google. Donnanz (talk) 10:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

television showEdit

Pursuant to the RfD discussion, I have restored television show. As you supported this restoration, please improve this entry through the addition of citations supporting the definitions provided and any other materials that would demonstrate its value to the corpus. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I have moved away from the fruitless discussions which take place over terms which happen to have two words through no fault of their own. I'll have a look, but I can't promise anything. Donnanz (talk) 16:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Keep up the good workEdit

Great progress with the Norwegian entries! I keep some statistics at Wiktionary talk:About Swedish#Statistics. --LA2 (talk) 01:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou! It's been hard work. If Bokmål ranks 36th that's not bad. By the way, I do find quite a few Swedish entries where the plural exists but there's no main entry - kattungar for example is one I found yesterday. Donnanz (talk) 07:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As you say, it's hard work. Sometimes when I got bored, I just created some plural (or past tense) entries. In other cases, there are main entries but no entries for the deflected forms. LA2 (talk) 10:43, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I have seen some of the main entries you mention. I will leave the filling in of the gaps to you! I did some Swedish entries months ago, but not very many. Donnanz (talk) 12:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


Maybe you could check and improve gjev. I tried my best but I don't really know Norwegian. --LA2 (talk) 00:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  • I'm having a look at it. I found an obsolete form (gjæv) in Einar Haugen's Norwegian-English Dictionary, which is itself well and truly out of date; it was made obsolete in the 2005 spelling reform, but I think it's still worth recording as an obsolete spelling. Donnanz (talk) 09:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I think "best men" may be OK, I think "finest men" would be OK too. In some contexts "gjeveste" translates as "most prestigious". I haven't been able to find anything for the second example. I will rewrite the inflections for lemma purposes - unfortunately that template doesn't automatically record the lemma entry. Donnanz (talk) 00:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


I’m curious, are you aware of any synonyms for this term? --Romanophile (talk) 16:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I assume it's Norwegian you're referring to. Lawyer is the general term, but Haugen, which is biased towards American English, lists in addition attorney (at law), the British terms barrister and solicitor, as well as advocate (of a cause). The term advocate is also used in Scotland and South Africa for a barrister. Donnanz (talk) 16:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Erm… I meant Scandinavian synonyms, not English ones. --Romanophile (talk) 18:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh, right. I found sakfører (Bokmål) and sakførar (Nynorsk), but apparently these are no longer used officially (Wikipedia). In Danish sagfører, also replaced by advokat as an official decription. In Swedish sakförare (person som utför juridiska uppdrag utan att vara advokat). Donnanz (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)



Could you kindly add the Norwegian translation please and check Danish (gender), if you can? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:29, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for interrupting. The Danish translation is corrected to halvdel. --ContraVentum (talk) 22:39, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
No worries. I agree with halvdel (no Danish entry exists though), and Bokmål and Nynorsk use the same spelling. Donnanz (talk) 22:48, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you both. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:55, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Where do you get the etymology for the Norwegian terms from?Edit

You often place some Old Norse word on your entries under etymology, where do you get the information from?


Please read the intro of WT:RFV. It is for the verification of entries that may not exist. I would not like to see drafty deleted if there are no citations after 30 days, and I don't think you want it deleted either. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Header: "Overview: Requests for verification is a page for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion"
Please do not attempt to delete drafty; it definitely exists. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Don't jump to false conclusions. Donnanz (talk) 14:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Is there anything I can say that will convince you to read Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Header? Renard Migrant (talk) 14:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • NOTICE: Because of this and other unsavoury incidents, I will not be answering that user in future. Donnanz (talk) 07:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I thank Renard Migrant for raising the issue with Donnanz. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Labeling as AmericanEdit

Please stop labeling entries as American. You seem to be doing it wrong. See also Wiktionary:Tea room/2015/March#Concerned about Donnanz's misguided crusade against non-British spellings. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

jail cellEdit

Read your statement on the "nominated for deletion" page, if there was a friends list button I would add you! Well said -:) WritersCramp (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  • A friends list button, eh. What an idea! Thanks for the flowers, but I've probably stirred up a hornet's nest. Actually I'm surprised there is no translations section under either entry. Food for thought, if these entries survive. Donnanz (talk) 15:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)


This template is only for things that are obviously wrong. Tagging Danish inflected forms that were created by a native speaker of Danish is probably inappropriate; you should be using WT:RFV instead. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

  • I created RFCs for these back in February, nothing was done, and now you're saying I should use RFV. They may have been created by a native Dane, but they're still wrong and I have checked them thoroughly; in one case (maybe both) the wrong template was used. Thanks for undoing the deletions, it will all have to be done again, we don't need inaccurate entries. Donnanz (talk) 07:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    Sorry, RFC is notoriously bad for getting things done. I don't know Danish, but I think it's reasonable that when a da-1 editor says that entries created by da-N editors are wrong, there's room for doubt. Maybe they're dialectal, colloquial, or obsolete — who knows. But the real point is that {{delete}} should not be used in these circumstances; reserve it for mistakes of your own, obvious vandalism, promotional material and the like. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:38, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    I don't like making false claims, but maybe my knowledge is better than da-1. So what should happen now? My use of {{delete}} for other inaccurate entries has been accepted in the past. Donnanz (talk) 07:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    If I don't hear any more from you, I will revert your edits in the morning (British time). Donnanz (talk) 22:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    I wouldn't. DCDuring TALK 23:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    Not only were they created by people who know way more about Danish than you do, a cursory check of Google Books suggests that they are easily citeable. I made suggestions earlier, but since you were unreceptive, I will now say it more bluntly: Stop misusing {{delete}} as you have been doing. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:56, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
    Very well, I have moved them to RFV. Let's see how many months / years they remain there. Donnanz (talk) 09:09, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Help NeededEdit

Would you be so kind as to take a look at Category:Pages with module errors? Most of those are due to CodeCat's addition of parameter checking to Module:nn-verb-irreg, which causes module errors in all the entries with obsolete parameters. I'm sure it's a good idea to clean these up anyway, but I wish she hadn't broken so many entries to do it. Thanks!

  • I'll do my best, but it is a good idea to rope in User:Njardarlogar as well (if you haven't already), as he is the Nynorsk specialist. Donnanz (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
  • CodeCat contacted him a few days ago, and got a rather shirty answer. But I think he's the man for the job. Either that or revert the edit to the template made last year. Donnanz (talk) 17:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

"There are some Nynorsk entries that have invalid parameters on this template, and they are now showing up as module errors. Could you fix these please? —CodeCat 16:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Throwing errors for unused parameters seems rather draconian. Is this a new policy? --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)"

You seem to get plenty of criticism.Edit

In the RFD on "tennis player", you wrote, "I have reread what I have written, and I can't find one word which constitutes a personal attack. Yes, I have given criticism, but we all have to take that whether we like it or not, and I seem to get plenty." I would dispute your impression that you didn't make any personal attacks, merely criticism, because it's precisely the criticism you're giving that others consider personal attacks. But I can see that you get your fair share of unkind words, and that you find it as distressing as other people do when it happens to them. So I'm offering my point of view here as a kind of olive branch, rather than posting it in reply to your last comment, and I hope you'll take it as well-intentioned and not another assault on your opinions.

The problem is that the type of criticism you give is infused with insinuations that other people's opinions are bad, and that they are wrong to voice them. For instance: "The 'good of the project' is not being served by RFDs like this" says that even discussing whether this or similar terms should be deleted is harmful to Wiktionary, and necessarily implies that everybody in favour of deletion is working to harm Wiktionary, which is a very provocative thing to say. Mr. Migrant's comment, "Is it really all about you, Donnanz?" was rather rude and I can understand why it would offend you, but -sche called him out on it: "Let's not personalize the debate like that." It was not necessary to follow up with "RM needs to be reminded...", which was certain to produce a backlash, which asserted that you were voting based solely on your personal preferences, and so on. He says an unkind thing, someone points out that such comments aren't helpful, and you could have been done with it.

Our exchange started innocently enough: I gave an opinion, noting that other dictionaries didn't tend to include this sort of construction for obvious reasons, and two types of examples, incorporating as many tennis terms as possible in my reasoning (a joke which clearly fell flat). You replied by saying that a "dictionary" which does include such words "leaves Wiktionary in the shade", a statement implying that Wiktionary should emulate this particular example. My reply attempted to distinguish a wordbook from a dictionary, and asserted that by following your apparent reasoning, we would need to add entries for scores of similar terms, without achieving much for the effort. Did I go overboard in my examples? Perhaps, but my whole point was that it would be absurd to include all of the words in said lexicon as Wiktionary entries simply because they translated words or phrases from other languages. A very long list of not very useful potential entries seemed like a logical way to make that point. Your response was to imply that my post was a "waste of space" and "a silly question"; and as Mr. Migrant subsequently pointed out, the answer "NO" (which suggests shouting, also a bit provocative) doesn't make much sense given your suggestion that we look to the wordbook as justification for "tennis player". If you had simply said, "no, that's not what I meant, I just think that 'tennis player' should stay because it's a useful translation target for a fairly common word," then I wouldn't have had any reason to complain, even if I disagreed.

Since my point was called "silly" and a "waste of space" and you clearly thought I would understand your point better if you shouted at me than if you simply explained it, I replied, perhaps a bit sarcastically; but I think I at least refrained from attacking anything other than that characterization of my post. To which you replied, "I have noticed that you tend to waste a lot of space wherever you leave your four tildes", which cannot be described as anything but a personal attack: "your other arguments are wasteful and pointless, therefore this one should be ignored too." I shouldn't have to point out that "wherever you leave your four tildes" makes it sound rather like you're comparing me to a spaniel leaving "gifts" in your garden, instead of an editor signing a comment. How do you expect people to respond to comments in which they're described like something dirty and offensive? You then went on to characterize my comments as "venting my spleen" rather than arguing a legitimate point. But as the sarcasm in my words was a direct response to your personal attack, this could hardly be anything but the pot calling the kettle black.

All of which should serve to show that, with the exception of an uncharitable comment by RM, for which he was immediately poked by a third party, you could have avoided any personal criticism in this discussion simply by refraining from it yourself. None of your other comments were provocative, and none of the other replies personal attacks. If you can just make your point without suggesting that anybody else's points are silly, bad, harmful to Wiktionary or wasteful of your valuable time, then a great deal less invective will be hurled at you in return. I realize that it's natural to to think of criticizing the language of a comment or the person making it when you strongly disagree. But if you resist that temptation whenever possible, then you will find yourself facing much less of the type of personal criticism.

Again, I truly hope that we can simply bury the hatchet and move on. You don't like personal attacks any more than I do, so I very much hope you'll read this in the spirit in which it's offered, and not as an attempt to get under your skin. P Aculeius (talk) 15:28, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

  • First of all: yes, I'm prepared to bury the hatchet.   Done
Right, where do I start? OK, RM. I have quite often clashed with him, now and in his previous life as Mglovesfun. He can be rather condescending and tends to treat me as a lesser mortal, which is something that has to be dealt with firmly (sometimes I just ignore him rather than answer, as it always adds fuel to the fire) , he is a hardened deletionist (along with others) whereas I am anti-deletionist. I don't take part in debates that don't really concern me, but he is the opposite. That's enough about him.
My main concern was that what was said with umpteen examples could quite easily have been said just as forcefully with just a few (adding ad infinitum or something), and I felt it ended up being bumph. That was the main point of my criticism, and I hope you can take that on board.
"The good of the project is not being served by this RFV". Fair enough, it's good to have a debate about it, but if the term is deleted, which is possible, a term has been lost. My main concern is that it's a translation target, and I notice that otherwise it lacks substance - it could be built up with one or two quotations but no one has bothered, and that is something I don't specialise in - I am concentrating on Norwegian instead.
I'm sorry I clashed with you, and I hope you accept that. I can take criticism, it can be upsetting initially, but I get over it; I'm 68 now so I've experienced life. Donnanz (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate your willingness to put this behind us. I agree that Mr. Migrant can be very rude, although not on every occasion. His first reply to you was certainly rude, although on the later occasion he actually did something nice by supporting me, even though I understand if you wish he hadn't. Some people seem to have a very hard time dialing back their personal feelings; I try to respond as impersonally as I can, until someone starts poking me, and if I can shrug it off then, I do. Although as you can tell, that's easier said than done sometimes. I don't consider myself for or against deleting terms in general, and I'm willing to be persuaded that my initial view was wrong. I just want to feel confident that terms kept have a sufficient reason for being here. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking reason; I quite enjoy silly words, provided they don't feel too contrived and have some practical utility. I think translation targets can be considered good reasons to keep terms, although I don't think it's very useful in this case, since tennisspieler can simply be translated as two words in English, each of which is the direct equivalent of half the German word. Anyway, I don't like seeing anybody bullied, so I thought maybe it would be better to reach out to you than to keep fighting. I'm glad to see I was right! P Aculeius (talk) 22:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
No more bullying, we're mates. I can't help wondering why RM has picked on just tennis player, and none of the other derivatives listed at player (and I've just added another one, see if you can spot it). Is this just to test the water? Who can read that bloke's mind? Yes, a translation target is a jolly good reason and is probably the reason some entries survive. Tennisspieler (hmm, no entry) is a compound word in common with many German {and Norwegian) words, but non-compound foreign-language words can sometimes translate only to two-word terms in English, as English doesn't have a single-word equivalent. It's swings and roundabouts. Donnanz (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

your nameEdit

What’s your name from? Does it mean something? --Romanophile (contributions) 05:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

  • NZ means New Zealand. Donnanz (talk) 09:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
So Donna is your given name? --Romanophile (contributions) 09:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
No. Donnanz (talk) 09:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Norwegian "riste"Edit

I added an entry for Danish riste. It looks like the Norwegian section needs an update. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: It definitely needed doing, and it took quite a while to disentangle that lot, creating separate entries for Bokmål and Nynorsk. Anyway, I think it's OK now. Donnanz (talk) 23:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Installering and InstallasjonEdit

Hi Donnanz, I think that installasjon means something installed whereas installering means the act of installing. It's a bit confusing in Norwegian because sometimes the noun and the grundium of the verb are the same but sometimes they are not.
- Teodor (dc) 11:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Teodor605: OK, thanks, I wondered about that. I have changed the translations listed at installation. So they can still be treated as synonyms, as shown here? [1] Donnanz (talk) 12:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Donnanz Many people use these and similar pairs as synonyms. However, I don't think they really are. I am not a scholar in the matter, just an above average careful user of my own language :) I would treat them as "See also" or "Relaterte termer". Regards,
- Teodor (dc) 13:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@Teodor605: Fair enough; I have altered the synonyms to "Related terms" (beslektede termer). Donnanz (talk) 14:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@Donnanz What do you think of the changes I just made to the definitions?
- Teodor (dc) 14:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@Teodor605: I think installation is correct and should be reinstated, and "the act of installing" clarifies the meaning, so that can remain. See here also - [2]. Donnanz (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


I notice on your user page that you complain about "Wiktionary's spellcheck". Wiktionary does not have a spellcheck feature. Any red underlines that you may see when editing this site are provided by your Web browser, not by Wiktionary. If you use another browser to edit Wiktionary you will most likely find that different words are recognised as being right and wrong, and different suggestions are offered when you right-click on unrecognised words. This, that and the other (talk) 10:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

@This, that and the other: I haven't updated my user page for a while, and the situation seems to have improved dramatically since I wrote that, so I may remove that comment. But some sort of spelling "corrector" still kicks in, especially with i in Norwegian which gets changed to capital I, so I still have to be on my guard. DonnanZ (talk) 10:29, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


Your edit makes the page more difficult to read and less informative. The page should remain as it was. Rikskansler (talk) 21:08, 9 June 2016 (UTC).

  • I only went to the page to add the Norwegian word. With your revert you deleted the Norwegian entry, and that is what I objected to. What you're trying to say, and it's still not that obvious in the entry, is that Dutch and English are derived from the Swedish word, a fact I already knew with English. As long as the Norwegian entry is not removed again I will leave things as they are now. But you still need to double-check before reverting edits. DonnanZ (talk) 21:55, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I didn't notice you added Norwegian. I thought you only reformatted the text and removed the Swedish-English-Dutch relation in the process. Do you object to me restoring the old layout while retaining the Norwegian addition? Rikskansler (talk) 00:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Under the circumstances, no, I don't object. I have found and added the Nynorsk word though. DonnanZ (talk) 07:28, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Norwegian noun templatesEdit

I've made a change to the way Norwegian templates handle stems different from the indefinite singular, see e.g. here for more details. The previous template design wasn't particularly intutive, so I decided to change it. Basically, now the first argument is either both for the singular and plural, or it's only for the singular if the second argument is provided. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:32, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

  • @Njardarlogar: Oh thanks! That's very useful for strøm and its derivatives. I see you have modified both m1 templates to deal with -el endings too - all good stuff. DonnanZ (talk) 11:46, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
All templates allowing stems as argument and that use Module:nn-noun and Module:nb-noun are affected in the same way. I believe I have fixed all pages ending with -el, other types of nouns may still need tweaking. I'll add temporary maintenance categories to all pages using the two arguments to see if I can catch all other relevant nouns. --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@Njardarlogar: OK, I caught up with your changes, replacing |bok and |bot with ||bok and ||bot, and incorporated it in parkeringsbot. All right now, cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 17:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Those examples above didn't actually use templates for irregular nouns - I believe those templates aren't effected as they explicitly ask for the inflected forms rather than generating them from a pattern.
Here is the maintenance category for Bokmål. A lot of the pages in that category are from a time when the -e suffix was not automatically removed by the template and are thus not examples of pages with incorrect inflection. --Njardarlogar (talk) 18:04, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, all now-incorrect use of the templates has hopefully been fixed now. I used my bot to eliminate the pages where just the -e had been removed in the argument. --Njardarlogar (talk) 21:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@Njardarlogar: I see that category is now empty, and thanks for all the work you've done. If I come across any more problems I'll let you know. The verb and adjective templates for Bokmål need updating sometime (the old ones don't record lemmas), I'm writing entries out manually so I can control things properly (allowing for alternative forms), and in the order I like personally. I have started adding a few Nynorsk verbs where the spelling is the same as Bokmål, but I haven't added any inflections. They are not up to your standard, but it's a start. A dictionary is never finished. DonnanZ (talk) 22:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


Hi. How are you using this to make automated entries? I tried copying it into my JS in User:Philmonte101/newentrywiz.js but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. How does it work? What does it do? Sounds pretty handy. (I'm asking you because I can't seem to find documentation for it.) Philmonte101 (talk) 20:20, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

  • I haven't got a clue I'm afraid, I don't make automated entries. All my entries are manually generated. DonnanZ (talk) 20:26, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
    • It says on one entry (namely undergruppe) "(cur | prev) 20:12, 3 August 2016‎ Donnanz (talk | contribs)‎ . . (295 bytes) (+295)‎ . . ((NEC) +nb:noun:) (thank)" NEC linked to newentrywiz.js . Do you know why it did this if you weren't using that gadget? It seems odd. Philmonte101 (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
      • Oh, that's a template created by Yair rand. All you have to do is type in a search term. If there is no entry already you will get the message "You may create the page "xxxxxxx" on a blank page, "request its creation" or "create it" using the New Entry Creator!" Click on "create it" and there you go. But that's just a template, you still have to enter the contents of the entry. DonnanZ (talk) 20:47, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


I updated the Danish entry for spyd, and the Norwegian section needs an update. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 10:28, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

  • @Lo Ximiendo: Yes, it needed an update alright. It may need some fine tuning, but the basics are there. DonnanZ (talk) 12:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
The term gaupe needs an update as well. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:15, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo:   Done. I'm pleased to get a Tbot entry out of the way, only 26 left now. DonnanZ (talk) 18:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Now there's torp. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo:   Done, it wasn't even registering as a lemma before. I left the definitions alone. DonnanZ (talk) 11:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)


I have added a citation to the entry, but could you translate it (just add it on a line below the quote starting off with #*::)? Also feel free to ask me to look for citations in the future. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo, @Metaknowledge: What makes that a durable source and not the one I added? Anyway, I'll have a go at the translation later. There's an awful lot wrong with FWOTD, and I won't be making any more nominations. DonnanZ (talk) 10:25, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
This one came from a Nynorsk newspaper (or more precisely, its website), so it has been printed or at least digitally archived. The earlier citation came from Wikipedia, which could be removed by a contributor there. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:33, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: OK. It's very hard to find books written in Nynorsk - most Norwegian books featured on Google Books are written in Bokmål. I have added quite a few quotations to Bokmål entries, but I can't do the pronunciation. DonnanZ (talk) 10:44, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
That's what I expected, so I went and checked some newspapers instead. I have also added citations to sval (all senses) and nyår (one sense). Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Translation done - I had a little trouble with "heldt på med", and excursion could be substituted with walkabout. Thanks for the other quotations; I can't find anything meaningful for finnmarking on Google Books. DonnanZ (talk) 12:16, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
halda på (med) = do, perform an activity --Njardarlogar (talk) 18:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Ah, cheers! DonnanZ (talk) 18:50, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: As an aside to this, I don't see any harm in using Nynorsk Wikipedia for quotations when a word is not being nominated for FWOTD. If the Wikipedia text is later changed the quotation can be subsequently removed as redundant. DonnanZ (talk) 13:05, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

True, though it's better to use the template ux for such intents, so it becomes a usage example (which do not have to be sourced and all), not a quotation. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


I've added a provisional pronunciation, but I'd appreciate it if you could find somebody else to check it before updating it on FWOTDN. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:15, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I only transcribe r's broadly (/r/), so I can't comment on that sound; but the rest looks normal to the extent my knowledge of IPA goes. --Njardarlogar (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
@Njardarlogar, @Lingo Bingo Dingo: Many thanks, I'm pinging LBD. DonnanZ (talk) 18:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to both. I've changed the pronunciation parameter now. Could you remove the strikeout, Donnanz? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:46, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  Done DonnanZ (talk) 08:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Removing Tbot tagsEdit

Try not to do this except for languages you are familiar with. Wikipedias make up spellings all the time, so that's not a reliable source. You have to actually go and check that the spelling is attested with that sense, generally at Google Books — and if you can't do that for a language like Estonian, you shouldn't remove the tag. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:40, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

  • I also checked it in Estonian Wiktionary. DonnanZ (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
    I don't know whether their Wiktionary is any good; some are awful. And more to the point, that doesn't count for attestation. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Did you actually check the entry? Anyway, revert the edit if you're not satisfied, I don't care either way, I thought I was doing a favour. DonnanZ (talk) 07:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
  • For anyone else reading this, the entry was Usbekistan. DonnanZ (talk) 07:54, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Don't listen to MK. Keep on cleaning up and getting rid of Tbot tags. I hope that they'll all be removed by the end of the year. --G23r0f0i (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Norwegian NynorskEdit


I have stumbled into making some edits here, mainly on Norwegian Nynorsk words. You seem to be one of the main contributors in Norwegian Nynorsk, so I just thought I'd say hi. I've edited in Wikipedia before, but not in Wiktionary. I'm trying to follow conventions, but I'm sure I'll make some faux pas or other, and maybe already have. If so, please feel free to let me know, and be assured all my edits are done in good faith. I have a few questions, which I will ask on my own discussion page, so others can also weigh in. Hope you will take the time to reply! --Barend (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

@Barend: Any Nynorsk contributions are welcome. I normally enter words which are the same as Bokmål, but I do some Nynorsk-only entries as well. User:Njardarlogar is responsible for most older Nynorsk entries, but is not so active any more. I will make changes if necessary (hopefully none), but if you notice any errors that I have made, feel free to change them. It can work both ways! DonnanZ (talk) 14:37, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

@Barend: I'm stuck on this one - utgjeve - I think it's the same as utgi in Bokmål, but is it derived from gje or gjeve, or both? e.g. "Andre norske aviser som no utgjeve i tabloidformat, ..." Maybe you can make an entry. DonnanZ (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

utgjeve would be participle of gi ut. Equivalent to utgitt in bokmål. So the entry would be gi ut. I haven't worked out yet - do we make entries for terms with more than one word, like gi ut?--Barend (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Barend: Ah, OK. Yes, an entry for gi ut is perfectly OK, it can also be shown as a derivative of gi. I think there are a number of Nynorsk verbs that differ from Bokmål in this respect. DonnanZ (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Regions of EnglandEdit

Re: this, how is Category:Regions of England distinct from Category:Counties and regions of England? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Clarification: Are there objective criteria for a "region" or is just a kind of squishy historical use for anything that isn't a particular county or municipality? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)


You say that this was used for a reason. What reason is this exactly? (Not that I really understand why the regular templates sort, in the first place) —CodeCat 19:00, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

{{der3-u}} was created because the characters æ, ø, and å couldn't be made to sort correctly with {{der3}}. It relies on manual sorting, not automatic as occurs with {{der3}}. For this reason it can also be used for Danish, Swedish and Faroese, and possibly Icelandic too. DonnanZ (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Ah ok, that makes sense, thank you. As I said, I'm not really sure why there is a need for sorting with these templates anyway. Is it so hard to insert new terms in the appropriate place? —CodeCat 19:20, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it's not hard to sort manually anyway, but the real beauty of {{der3}} etc. is that they are self-balancing, so it's a good reason to use them, as well as being able to dispense with brackets around entries. There was a problem very recently with strict alphabetical sorting when someone was mucking around with the modules (see the Grease Pit), but that was quickly rectified. DonnanZ (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Self-balancing can be done without automatic sorting. In fact it can be done without modules entirely. --WikiTiki89 20:02, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, {{der-top3}} and the like can be made autobalanced very easily. —CodeCat 20:03, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
In fact, I did so right now. —CodeCat 20:22, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Are you able to dispense with brackets around entries, using lang=en, lang=nb or whatever? DonnanZ (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
No, that's what the {{der3}} etc templates are meant for. If you need the full features of {{l}}, or add qualifiers or the like, then you'd use {{der-top3}}. —CodeCat 20:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, yes, there can be a problem dealing with qualifiers with {{der3}}. OK, that's useful to know, thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


Should we start including full township names as well? For instance, Sandusky Township? PseudoSkull (talk) 01:52, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

  • I don't really know. I'm not familiar with the American definition of a township, which seems to be a subdivision of a county. That's why I have omitted them, they're not towns as such. DonnanZ (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


I'm starting to become interested in this myself. What I'm going to do I think is I'm just going to go through each state that has counties and add entries for all of them. I'm starting with List of counties in Alabama, then going to List of counties in Arizona, so on so forth until it's finished. We could split it up if you want; for instance, I do Alabama and you do Arizona, or vice versa? This dictionary lacks severely in proper nouns right now, so us doing this (and mass creations of surnames, etc.) is actually a really great contribution that will make this dictionary much more complete! PseudoSkull (talk) 01:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

  • OK, fine, I see you have entered some already. I want to finish entering those remaining on my list and move on. The problem is that I keep finding more and adding them to the list. I think most of the more popular county names have been done already, and the three counties in Delaware are all entered. DonnanZ (talk) 09:35, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Counties in the United StatesEdit

Why would you want to have one category with over 3,000 members rather than a logical subset of 50 separate counties-by-state? Also, there are other counties subdivisions by country--are you suggesting that those be deleted and upmerged as well? How is this in any way superior? —Justin (koavf)TCM 09:50, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

A compromise would be to have categories for both country and states. But don't expect me to create the categories. At the moment I am concentrating on creating the county entries, you can't recategorise a non-existent entry. DonnanZ (talk) 10:00, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

A non-existent entry? —Justin (koavf)TCM 10:06, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I have over 50 counties on my to-do list that have no entries yet, and I'm finding more almost daily. I will run out of counties eventually. DonnanZ (talk) 10:11, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, that's a good thing. I don't understand where you are going with this. What non-existent entries? —Justin (koavf)TCM 10:13, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
An entry that hasn't been created yet doesn't exist, right? It's non-existent. DonnanZ (talk) 10:19, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Which entry is non-existent...? Category:Counties of Indiana definitely exists and is complete. Counties for other states is exactly what I suggested in my edit summary and which you call a compromise above but it's not really a compromise--it's just doing what I would prefer. —Justin (koavf)TCM 10:43, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm talking about entries for actual counties that don't exist yet, not for categories for counties. What you prefer and what I prefer appear to be two different things, hence the need for compromise. DonnanZ (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I don't understand the problem but there's no reason to have something in a child and parent category simultaneously--that never makes sense. The counties for Indiana are all made and complete; over time, so will the other 49 states. —Justin (koavf)TCM 11:11, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
In this case "child and parent" categories seem to make sense. There may be 3000 counties in all, but not 3000 county entries ultimately as a lot of county names are used by many states, I think the record is 25 out of 48 states for one county name. I don't think there are any counties in Alaska, but apparently they exist in Hawaii (no entries yet). DonnanZ (talk) 11:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Alaska has boroughs (as does New York, but they're also counties) and Louisiana has parishes. And yes, Hawaii has counties. I have to agree, though, that it's better not to categorize everything into the parent category- anything over 200 members in topical categories should be avoided if there's a logical way to do it. Chuck Entz (talk)
With an index at the top of the category (which is automatically added when it reaches 200 entries) I don't see any problem with the number of entries in each category. All noted about Alaska, Hawaii and New York, I think the New York boroughs are already recorded as boroughs and not treated as counties. London boroughs are recorded in Category:en:London at present. I live in one of them. DonnanZ (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
New York' five boroughs are coterminous with, but not identical to its five counties. The District attorneys ("DAs") and courts are entities of the counties, not the boroughs, thus making the boroughs and countries lexically distinct in some contexts. The DAs are referred to in most contexts as Manhattan/Brooklyn/Staten Island DA. Three of the counties have names differing from those of the coterminous counties, Kings (Brooklyn), Richmond (Staten Island), and New York (Manhattan). DCDuring (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I see. Is there any need to record them as counties as well? They appear in Category:en:Boroughs in New York City at present. DonnanZ (talk) 16:40, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
As pointed out above, Alaska has special census-designated regions which function like counties and Louisiana's parishes are identical to counties in every meaningful way (except of course that they are named "[X] Parish" rather than "[X] County", which is actually an important distinction at an encyclopedia). Note also that there are former counties in the United States or counties which were formerly in some states which are now in others--specifically Virginia which used to be mammoth and included the entirety of Kentucky and West Virginia. So correct me if I'm wrong but there is a decent consensus for counties by state. I just made the one because I'm from Indiana, care about Indiana stuff, and I just happened to know the counties of Indiana fairly well. —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:34, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
At the moment there is only one subcategory, one for Indiana and none for other states. I have no objection to the creation of other subcategories, but there is still the need for a master category. This is where you have gone wrong, removing the master category from counties in multiple states where no subcategories exist for states other than Indiana. So the master category will have to be restored in such cases. Yes, I am aware of the Louisiana parishes, those done so far have been categorised as counties. DonnanZ (talk) 18:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
No, you are mistaken--the parent cat doesn't need to be restored because it's still in a child category. And, as you can see, the child categories are all created and mostly populated but you are still adding the parent category for no reason. I did the work for you, so please stop doing this. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
That's your opinion, not mine. No thanks are due to you for undoing all my hard work. DonnanZ (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Not just mine--I confirmed that before I got AWB access. An entry should not be in both a parent and child category. Why would that be preferable?
What about CAT:en:Cities? Shouldn't these be categorized in CAT:en:Cities in India etc. instead? Our categories get too narrow sometimes, it really isn't necessary to have such fine detail. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 20:51, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm surprised there's not a Category:en:Cities in Mongolia. That should give Koavf something better to do. DonnanZ (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
There are only 24 hours in a day. But yes, that should exist for Ulaanbaatar. Having intersecting categories solves the problem of diffusing both (e.g. this example) Category:Mongolia and Category:Cities. Are you suggesting that a few hundred thousand entries in cat:cities, several dozen in cat:Mongolia, and a few in cat:Cities in Mongolia simultaneously is somehow better? Why would we even make subcategories at all in this case? —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
You seem to please yourself anyway, so why ask me? DonnanZ (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I already confirmed that this is how categories are to be structured (which is also common sense and how they are used in sister projects) but soliciting your feedback helps me understand why you are doing what you are doing. If you have an argument in favor of having an entry in both a parent and child category, I'm interested in knowing why. I've been using Wikipedia since before categories existed and I've never seen a compelling reason for this but you seem to have strong feelings on it, so please explain. Your complaint earlier was that there weren't proximate categories for the other 49 states, so I made them. Now it seems that you are upset that I have somehow undone your hard work when all I did was diffuse the categories how you suggested that I would do it above. I'm struggling to understand what you want done: what is your ideal state for these categories and its scheme? —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:06, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Don't blame me for your "bright" ideas. All you have succeeded in doing is taking the pleasure out of the job, so I may move on to other topics. We'll see. DonnanZ (talk) 22:51, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Donna, there is no reason at all to act this way. I'm trying to ask what you want and you're being petulant. What is the goal here? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:10, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Redundant categoriesEdit

Donna, we have discussed this: why are you putting entries into a category and its subcategory? —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:24, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Per Wiktionary:Categorization: "it may be wise not to put a page in a category and also in a more general category." (Note that I have amended this to be more explicit and also solicited feedback on the wording). How is this justified? —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:31, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It shouldn't be regarded as redundant, but as a master category. A user can see whether there is a county with a certain name, such as Brown, Smith or Jones, without ploughing through all the subcategories. Its also useful for trivia, such as county names that begin with Mc, Q or Z for example. Without a master category this can't be done. I find it is generally useful and will give the complete picture (when it's complete) which can't be achieved with subcategories alone, and you are the only one who was voiced objections to it. DonnanZ (talk) 16:44, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

So I think you should revert all the deletions you have made, I have received several notifications. DonnanZ (talk) 16:51, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't delete anything. Also, as I pointed out above, do you think that Category:Cities should have 200,000 entries for trivial reasons? Why not upmerge all the counties to the parent Category:United States of America as well? You're not answering these questions or giving any coherent vision of why you are including something in a parent and a child category other than "I like it" and "it's useful for trivia". If you want, you can create Appendix:Counties in the United States for a listing or use w:en:AWB to generate a list. Your behavior is out of line. —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2017/May#Categorization_and_use_of_subcategories. —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
"I didn't delete anything". You deleted categories from at least 16 entries. DonnanZ (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't delete anything. Removing something from a category does not delete the category: in point of fact, I populated that category with a full set of subcategories which is exactly what you asked for above. —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:39, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't ask for subcategories. I said "At the moment there is only one subcategory, one for Indiana and none for other states. I have no objection to the creation of other subcategories, but there is still the need for a master category." That's not asking for them, but you went ahead and created them. DonnanZ (talk) 17:45, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Entry removalEdit

Can you please explain this edit? White County, New South Wales exists--why wouldn't it be listed here? —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:48, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

As I have already explained NSW counties are for cadastral purposes relating to land ownership, and are not local government administrative areas, which are known as shires etc. I suggest you do your homework first. DonnanZ (talk) 03:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Doing my homework before what exactly? I was asking you in order to learn--is that a problem? I have no idea what "cadastral purposes" are so I'm trying to figure out why you are removing them. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:50, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The entry for cadastral is rather minimal, so I have added a reference. You can also look here:
"Counties in Australia have no administrative or political function, unlike those in England, the United States or Canada. Australia instead uses local government areas, including shires, districts, councils and municipalities according to the state, as the second level subdivision."
DonnanZ (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
There used to be "proper" counties in New Zealand, but they were abolished in 1989 and replaced by larger regions. DonnanZ (talk) 10:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, that helps--we don't have any consensus on third- or fourth-level administrative divisions, so that makes more sense. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:32, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


I'd like to nominate you for adminship. You've been editing for 3 years, have been working very hard, and are a trustworthy editor. Do you accept this nomination? PseudoSkull (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2017 (UTC).

  • @PseudoSkull: I don't think I am cut out for adminship. There are others who are better at the job than I would ever be. So no, I won't accept the nomination. Sorry about that, but thanks for the thought. DonnanZ (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)


You might want to check the etymology you gave at forening. The other two Scandinavian languages (Danish and Swedish) both have etymologies from forene+-ing or förena+ing. Where did you get ening? PseudoSkull (talk) 19:59, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

  • @PseudoSkull: Bokmål Wiktionary has it as for- ening, but they could be wrong. There is a word ening, but apparently only used in "i eninga" and "i eningen", so you could be right. I will have a further look at it. DDO doesn't help either, but The Bokmål Dictionary has the word break as for/ening, which can be misleading: forene -ing does make sense though. DonnanZ (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2017 (UTC)


"A Native American nation or tribe." Isn't this a common noun, plural in construction, like "French" in "the French eat snails"? Equinox 18:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

@Equinox: You can move it to the noun section below if you want, I won't argue about that but it was pointless having two separate sections for common nouns. You could also argue that languages (dead or alive) aren't proper nouns either - I don't think they are. DonnanZ (talk) 18:54, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Please stop adding Category:Counties of the United States of AmericaEdit

Unless I have misread that discussion, there is consensus that entries in the topical category scheme should not be in a parent and child category simultaneously. Please stop making entries that are in the parent category and a child, by-state category. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:03, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

@Koavf: As I read it there is no real opposition to putting entries in two categories in this case, apart from you yourself. In fact there does seem to be some support for two categories. I find a master list is quite useful and valuable (otherwise I wouldn't be adding to it), and I am sure other users must do also. I have also found that the appendix is much more difficult to edit and not a viable option, and I have stopped adding entries to it. I notice you have removed the parent category from newer entries beginning with "A" which haven't been added to the appendix, so they will have to be restored when I find them again. I would like you to stop frustrating my efforts, and give me a chance to prove the master category's usefulness by refraining from removing categories from any more entries. DonnanZ (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
You've been told this several times by several admins. Please stop. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:54, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: I don't think so, only by you. Where? DonnanZ (talk) 22:58, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
User:Chuck Entz, 2017-05-15T10:08:39: "I have to agree, though, that it's better not to categorize everything into the parent category- anything over 200 members in topical categories should be avoided if there's a logical way to do it.". User:Angr, 2017-05-19T13:03:54: "For the topical categories, you're probably right that we should avoid duplication and only put things in the most specific category available". User:DTLHS, 2017-05-19T14:50:08: "I believe categorizing only in the most specific category is reasonable." User:Erutuon on 2017-05-19T14:46:51 "I agree that entries should not be put in both the parent and child topic category. There are other ways to generate the list of US county names that you desire." and 2017-05-19T15:14:14: "add only the "county in a given state" category." Shall I go on? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:17, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Those are general recommendations that apply to all categories, there seems to be room for exceptions. No one, apart from yourself, has actually asked me to stop. If I am asked to stop by admin, I will stop creating county entries altogether. DonnanZ (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Then you should stop. Per the above, there is very explicit instruction and no one thought this is somehow exempt. It's really sad that you want to just take your ball and go home but if you're not willing to abide by what the community decides, then you won't be able to participate. —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:17, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
I won't be able to participate in what? I can make contributions elsewhere where you never go. Stop playing silly buggers. DonnanZ (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
I hoped the input of other editors would guide the two of you towards an amicable resolution of this disagreement, but it appears not to have done so (possibly because the BP thread became long and full of tangents/bickering and thus not so easy to follow). I believe there is consensus that entries should not be in both a parent category and a subcategory (and that any single category with 200+ entries is a candidate for being split up into subcategories), and I agree with that consensus. I note that Wikipedia also categorizes counties only by state, and explicitly names and labels w:Category:Counties of the United States by state a "container category [...that] should contain only subcategories". Please only add counties to "state" categories and do not add counties to Category:Counties of the United States of America (or its language-specific subcategories like Category:en:Counties of the United States of America). - -sche (discuss) 00:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
@-sche: You seem to have overlooked Category:United States county disambiguation pages. But if that is what you want, I will scrap my to-do list and move on. I am not giving in to Koavf. No way. DonnanZ (talk) 01:10, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
@-sche: I don't think you found Index of U.S. counties either. DonnanZ (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Wikipedia but you linked to a disambiguation category used for tracking (which does not contain every U.S. county) and an article (which is not a category at all). —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:36, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Don't split hairs, it doesn't matter whether the latter is called an index or a category, it is still a complete list in Wikipedia and is what I would like to achieve. DonnanZ (talk) 08:18, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
That is precisely what Appendix:Counties of the United States of America is... That is not splitting hairs. Both of them would be manually-made lists in a non-category namespace. —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:25, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

So are you making entries like Stanton County in categories like Category:en:Nebraska rather than Category:en:Counties of Nebraska just to be spiteful? —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:50, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@-sche: Koavf has completely emptied the parent category, which wasn't meant to happen. He should be satisfied with that, but oh no, he is monitoring every entry I make and altering them to meet his ideal. I did make a few more county entries today without entering the parent category, and he still altered all of them, as I am not using his "precious" subcategories on principle. This amounts to harassment and victimisation, a situation which cannot be tolerated. So I have probably made my last county entry, as I need that geezer off my back. Sadly, the community will be the loser with a job not even half done, and Koavf has absolutely nothing to be proud of. DonnanZ (talk) 22:12, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

:You may have missed this edit which actually said explicitly that. This is entirely consistent with what User:-sche said above: "Please only add counties to "state" categories and do not add counties to Category:Counties of the United States of America (or its language-specific subcategories like Category:en:Counties of the United States of America)." I fail to see how this is harassment or victimization... You are a victim of what exactly? —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:10, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

If you have nothing useful to say stay off my talk page. DonnanZ (talk) 08:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

How did you understand the outcome of that discussion and the instructions above, then? What did you think was supposed to happen differently? —Justin (koavf)TCM 15:48, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
That's water that's gone under the bridge. As the appendix is unsuitable and, lets face it, NBG, I would like to set up a module for a new master list which works in the same way as a category - I am thinking of an appropriate title at the moment. If I can do that I will start contributing again, providing it can be added to entries without objection. DonnanZ (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: I favour "United States county/County index/Index" as a title, which is as short as possible without being ambiguous, but rather unconventional, there doesn't seem to be any Category:en:Index of ... anywhere. It's a question of which module to use, probably Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Earth, unless there's a more appropriate one. Would there be any objection to that?
BTW, shouldn't there be a category for French Guiana? I can't find one, and it's not in the Earth module. DonnanZ (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't know where you want to have this listing that you are proposing and as for French Guiana, it's a part of France, so we could/should have one under that in the hierarchy. —Justin (koavf)TCM 15:19, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: OK, French Guiana can have two parents, like any child should have, France and South America. The listing needs more thought. DonnanZ (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

@Koavf: I have set up a module in Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Places (below Counties of Wyoming), but haven't created a category yet as the title could be revised. I'm not sure what to include in "parents" though. DonnanZ (talk) 08:35, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know how to help here. —Justin (koavf)TCM 14:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I have deleted Category:en:United States county index, which is an obvious and malformed end-run around the consensus that counties should be in the "leaf" (state-level) categories and not all lumped into one category. Category:en:United States county index would need broader discussion and consensus, because it is just a parallel / pseudo-duplicate of Category:en:Counties of the United States of America but that doesn't fit the naming scheme for list categories. There is in fact a namespace for indexes, and it's not the category namespace: it's "Index:", although for a list like this, "Appendix:" would normally be used. - -sche (discuss) 16:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@-sche: I'm not sure what the fuss is about when Category:English surnames has over 19,500 entries. Koavf did set up an appendix which I tried editing, but gave up on it as I could see that it would become more difficult to edit the longer it became. I set up the county index as a category as it had definite advantages, such as automatic sorting and self-management, which appendixes don't have. If appendixes could be improved I would use them, otherwise no. I am aware there is no other category called an index, I did think about that before creating the category. So what am I meant to do now? Give up entirely? I'm fed up with being thwarted with every step I make. DonnanZ (talk) 17:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Norwegian mura/mureEdit

Hello there,

In "Geografisk dialektfordeling og lydforandringer i grønlandsk", Jørgen Rischel suggests that Greenlandic musaq may be borrowed from an (Old, presumably) Norse word cognate to Norwegian mura. According to Bokmåls/Nynorskordboka, this word is from a like-spelled Old Norse word, but refers to a different plant; but if the Old Norse word is cognate to German Möhre, it might in fact mean "carrot". Can you shed some light on this?__Gamren (talk) 07:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Gamren: The Norwegian word for carrot is gulrot, AFAIK nothing to do with "mure", which can also be a verb related to mur. I did find articles in Wikipedia, Mureslekta and Mure. According to Einar Haugen's Norwegian-English Dictionary "mure" (Potentilla) is tormentil or "blood root" (apparently not the species listed at bloodroot).
The Bokmålordboka and Nynorskordboka aren't positive anyway, using words like "trolig beslektet med" and "truleg samanheng med tysk Möhre". DonnanZ (talk) 10:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Norwegian taskEdit

If you're interested, User:DTLHS/cleanup/lemma_bad_categorization#Norwegian_Bokm.C3.A5l (and Nynorsk below it). These are entries that are in Category:Norwegian Bokmål lemmas or Category:Norwegian Bokmål non-lemma forms but have no Bokmål section on the page. DTLHS (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

@DTLHS: I will have a go at this when I finish the Bokmål / Nynorsk etyl cleanup, which is taking much longer than expected. DonnanZ (talk) 09:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: I think I have cleared up the Norwegian list at long last, if you can check when you rerun it. I notice the earlier ones I did have been removed already. DonnanZ (talk) 23:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, another page to check is User:DTLHS/cleanup/lemma_categorization#Norwegian. DTLHS (talk) 23:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: regne kattunger? Haha, I will start working on them shortly. DonnanZ (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Module additionEdit

Re: this, did you see that Category:Toiletry already exists? —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:39, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

@Koavf: See the discussion here. The intention is to remove Category:Toiletry later. DonnanZ (talk) 22:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. So it should all be ported over to the new name? —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: Yes, I haven't done anything yet, I see you created the English subcategory. I will get going on it shortly, probably tomorrow. I'll probably do Norwegian first. DonnanZ (talk) 23:04, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Score. I'll help you unless you say to not. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:09, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: By all means, carry on. Fortunately there's not too many entries, even in English. Thanks in advance for the help. DonnanZ (talk) 23:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Should be done. Let me know if I can help any other way. The cosmetics subcats. will still appear until (I think) the come up in the job queue. The relevant module listing can be deleted now with no harm. If you want me to propose the old categories for speedy deletion, let me know. —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:29, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: I have dealt with the RFD, but I will leave the removal of the module to you.
I just noticed you said speedy deletion, I guess that can be changed.
There is one other thing. Category:no:Municipalities in Norway was created as long ago as 2005, but it doesn't appear in Category:Municipalities in Norway, created only this year. The two need to be linked somehow. DonnanZ (talk) 10:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Good eye. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:26, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: Ah, {{auto cat}}. I changed the Bokmål and Nynorsk categories as well. Thanks for that. DonnanZ (talk) 17:45, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Does my voice make your ears bleed?Edit

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/special:Contributions/Romanophile — (((Romanophile))) (contributions) 20:55, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@Romanophile: I guess you saw my comment about Dvortygirl. No, you haven't made my ears bleed, in fact I had to turn my audio up as your voice is a wee bit soft (and I notice the drawl!). I certainly welcome more audio recordings, and I wonder whether you are targeting {{rfap}} requests, I think I added a couple of those. There's also some broken recordings which need replacing sometime if you want to do that. Keep up the good work. DonnanZ (talk) 21:58, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
I’m not sure where the drawl comes from other than maybe Nebraska. I was raised in Texas for most of my life but I never considered myself as having a Southern drawl (though one individual said so). And yeah, I need to turn up the volume when I save files.
I actually haven’t looked at {{rfap}} all that much, but I should sometime. What are the broken recordings? — (((Romanophile))) (contributions) 01:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
@Romanophile: I don't think anyone recognises their own drawl. I am still occasionally told I have a Kiwi accent, although I think it should be more British by now. I haven't actually made a note of the broken recordings, but I can let you know when I find any. DonnanZ (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


Hey. If you're able to, can you please check the entries using no-verb? It should probably be renamed to no-conj, or split into the two forms of Norwegian. There are a small number to do, and the template has been at WT:RFC for 6 years. Thanks --Pas un coiffeur (talk) 09:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

It appears to be used in old conjugation templates, which need to be replaced. I will do that in the next few days. DonnanZ (talk) 09:21, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, you're the best guy for the job! --Pas un coiffeur (talk) 09:32, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
@Pas un coiffeur: I think I have done all the entries, leaving the other stuff. So if no entries are using that template now, I think it can go to RFD for deletion. DonnanZ (talk) 23:57, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks. I've replaced RFC with RFD. It'll be good to see this crappy template destroyed. --Pas un coiffeur (talk) 10:05, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

County indexEdit

These are a lot of categories to add now, but they're good categories. Once all US county entries have entries, there may be need for a bot to check all the entries with category en:Counties of X, etc. to make sure all have en:United States county index... PseudoSkull (talk) 00:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: When I created the US county index I deliberately omitted entries created by Koavf. It's a long story, a row which blew up when he created categories for each state and wanted the parent category empty. DonnanZ (talk) 10:05, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: Following Koavf's deletion of the category I have decided to add the county index on my user page. Hopefully it will stay there. It's more or less complete with behavioural problems sorted out, and as it's so large I split it into eight sections. Anyway I would like your opinion, whaddya reckon? I have yet to add Alaskan boroughs (still incomplete), all counties are done now. DonnanZ (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I have little else to say other than that I am very happy that all these are done now! It took me and especially you a lot of work to fill up all these red links. But having space for further work gives me a different question; now that our work in this area is complete, what do we do about entries for townships? Townships don't exist in every state (in South Carolina for instance there aren't townships, but in Ohio there are townships). When I'm in Ohio what I gather about the townships is that they identify specific areas of counties, they exist in every county in the state (usually containing like 6 at least), and they may or may not include towns or cities (they could just be some area of country). So the hierarchy is sort of like (State of Ohio {County [Township <Town>]}). Examples of township names include York Township, Sandusky Township, Green Creek Township, etc., and they're usually referred to by the name "township" (I haven't heard them referred to otherwise, i.e. no one ever says "I live in Green Creek" because that's not a city name there.) Just saying though, these are probably set phrases, and they're attestable by our standards. The only thing that strikes me odd about the whole thing is that townships don't seem to be given much importance by the general people. I rarely ever hear anyone casually talking about townships there. It's not something I hear people talk about often (now counties, those would be mentioned, definitely, but not individual townships). Upon asking someone about it, that person (who was not from Ohio) speculated that townships were there for taxing purposes. Idk what do you think about this township stuff? PseudoSkull (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that, perhaps you can put a question in the Beer Parlour. I did find usage notes at township, and a Wikipedia article which gives more insight (Township (United States)). I think townships created purely for survey purposes can be ignored, but then some of them become administrative townships. It can be quite complex. If a householder pays property tax to a township (instead of to a county or city) I guess it would be includable. I don't know whether boundaries of townships are signposted in the same way as counties, see image at Gove County for instance. Perhaps you can answer that point. DonnanZ (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)


Greetings, I propose you remove lowpriced from WT:RFVE: the attesting qutoations are already in the entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:25, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Their validity needs checking. DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't understand. What validity? The spelling of the term? The meaning of term? The quotations being genuine? --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)


Hey, since you were the last one to edit the "pupper" page on wiktionary, I figured you'd probably be the best person to talk to about this. I notice that on this website (and on most sites), pupper is often claimed to be a word that has its origins in the internet. This is simply not true. The word has existed in the USA since the 1980s (at the latest). Where/how would I be able to point this out on the 'pupper' page? Thank you. NewEnglandVermonter (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@NewEnglandVermonter: I'm afraid I can't help you there. The last edit I did was to remove vandalism, the English entry was created by someone else. I originally created the Bokmål plural entry (meaning breasts). Perhaps you can put a question in the Tea Room, or ask User:Mnemosientje who created the English entry. DonnanZ (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. NewEnglandVermonter (talk) 21:23, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

US (or other) countiesEdit

Hi dude. Your (IMO a bit ill-advised) RFD reminded me: a lot of these counties are named from the surnames of individuals. In that case it's nice to put [[Category:English eponyms]] on there. You don't have to. But I think it's nice to have this kind of information that can be automatically processed, where human-written etymologies cannot. Thanks for considering! Equinox 02:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: Yes, I have noticed that you have been adding eponyms, but I'm not interested in them to the same extent as yourself, so I don't think of it. I will bear it in mind if I create any more, things have come to a halt at present. As for the RFD, I am taking a gamble here, and (so far) I can withdraw it. DonnanZ (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: I have been thinking of removing county categories from all entries I created, but that may punish too many users. I'm holding fire on that. DonnanZ (talk) 09:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Why? Is this politics? Categories are supposed to create semantics (terrier is a type of dog, Hawaii is an instance of states, etc.). Add 'em if they make semantic sense; remove 'em if they are wrong. Equinox 10:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: Well yes, I guess it can be called politics. Koavf removed the category United States county index from every county entry using AWB, which I don't have the power to do anything about (he made reinstatement of the category admin only) so I was thinking of retaliation. But I have had second thoughts about that. And there are times when I wish I was admin, but I don't really want that. DonnanZ (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Yeah. I don't have skin in the game but ultimately we are trying to create a resource that will be useful for people who want to know about words (or counties! or whatever). I totally understand the status inequality (earlier tonight I bitched at someone on WP for using his automatic revert button without even reading the change: it was a grammar fix: I bet the guy is about 16) but as part of the community you have to let the community deal with it. Don't hurt the readers! Here endeth the rant. Equinox 11:22, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: You can rant as much as you like, I don't mind. But getting back to counties, there was only a hundred or so more to be done when disaster struck. I have suspended work for now, but I may finish the job off without adding categories. We'll see. I think I'm the only one who knows which ones are missing. DonnanZ (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

French etyl cleanupEdit

Hello. Please don't convert {{etyl}} to {{der}} in French entries when the source language is Latin; the distinction between {{bor}} and {{inh}} matters in that case. Thanks! --Per utramque cavernam 11:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

My objective is to get them off the etyl cleanup list using {{der}}, leaving the finer details to other editors. I rarely do the French ones, only if they are on the same page as another language. Currently, 5580 French entries still need cleaning up. DonnanZ (talk) 12:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Afrikaans etyl cleanupEdit

Hi, generally {{inh}} is used for Afrikaans terms derived from Dutch ({{bor}} is used for recent borrowings). So if it seems like an old word, {{inh}} is usually a safe bet. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: As a matter of policy I never use {{bor}} or {{inh}}, I never voted in favour of them. It is worth pointing out that quite a few Afrikaans words are spelt differently from Dutch, so I would say they are derived, not directly inherited. DonnanZ (talk) 07:47, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, most of the time that's because of regular sound laws (lucht > lug), arbitrary spelling conventions (e.g. Afrikaans retained y while Dutch moved to ij during the 18th and 19th centuries) or because the Afrikaans derives from an older or dialectal variant. But any, could you ping me when you've removed {{etyl}} from an Afrikaans entry, so I can expand the etymology? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Ping you how? On the discussion page? DonnanZ (talk) 08:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, if it's not too big a bother. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: OK. In any case, you can clean some up yourself if you like (Category:etyl cleanup/af). DonnanZ (talk) 08:23, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm on it. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:49, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
And   done. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Brilliant. We need an admin to remove empty categories in Category:etyl cleanup (and thus disable the use of {{etyl}} in those languages). User:Mahagaja was doing it but he's not very active at present. DonnanZ (talk) 09:09, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: I think you may have removed the empty pages, but this should have been done by editing {{etyl}}, after clicking on "view source". I know what to do, but I'm not allowed to do it. DonnanZ (talk) 08:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
They recently added the ability to ping in an edit summary, though I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
You just have to use a plain link: [[User:Chuck Entz]] (don't use {{ping}}). Per utramque cavernam 08:39, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The ping came through by the way. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:49, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
From whom? DonnanZ (talk) 09:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
From Chuck Entz; he tried out a ping in the edit summary of his comment. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I have tried it on someone else, I hope it worked. DonnanZ (talk) 19:03, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Which norwegian dictionaries do you use to check words?Edit

Since you're the one doing practically all my requested entries, can I make your life easier by for example linking dictionary results from the sites you use? C0rn3j (talk) 22:55, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@C0rn3j: I'm the only one actively concentrating on Norwegian. I use all sorts of sources - Google, Einar Haugen's Norwegian-English Dictionary (my own copy), Bokmålsordboka, NAOB, LEXIN, Wikipedia. I would check these sources anyway, I usually have one window open for each of the dictionaries. Of course I am also adding words that I find when reading Norwegian (which may come in useful for you eventually). DonnanZ (talk) 23:19, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Rail stuffEdit

Nice. It's not my specific thing but I have long been aware of "railfanning" as an area that has its own jargon that is not well documented (another one is CB/ham radio). Equinox 21:28, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: Yeah, it's the subject of the moment, and I have found some interesting stuff, many American terms differ from BrE. As for CB, yes, I had a go at that in the eighties, and that led to me getting an amateur radio licence. I was QRT for years, renewed my licence and bought a new transceiver, but I'm not using it. Things aren't the same as when I had a 5-element beam and worked DX as far as NZ. Those were the days. I did add the CB sense to eyeball recently. DonnanZ (talk) 21:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Some years back a guy I know started messing about with retro radio equipment out of _____ [what's the word for having nostalgia for things before your own time period], and eventually set up an analogue-to-online stream of his local ambulance service. It was fascinating listening on a Friday night: reports of idiots fighting, "Mrs Goggins has fallen down the stairs again", etc. Then he got scared of legal repercussions and killed it. My own first awareness of CB radio as a "thing" was being taken, as a small kid, to some house party (the owner was an heiress to the Currys electronics stores apparently) and seeing her spoiled son messing about with it. His call sign was either Creme Egg or Chuckie Egg, perhaps we'll never know. Equinox 22:01, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: I don't know, maybe it is nostalgia. But funny you should say that about listening in (or earwigging), I watched an interesting video earlier called "Coal trains and time freights" on Norfolk Southern in West Virginia, and a funny one, set in Florida, the other day where maintenance vehicles running on rails, but not long enough to be called a train, were playing havoc with the level crossing barriers as they were going through one after another (apparently they had a washout to deal with). In both cases the railfans shooting the videos listened into conversations on radios, obviously on railroad frequencies. And the accents were quite interesting. DonnanZ (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
I was watching good old ponderous minor poet John Betjeman waxing lyrical about the old Great Western, on YouTube. Adorable. He was standing at an obviously new and expensive station (filmed in black and white of course) and I googled it afterwards and it has been shut down for ages. Okay sorry I'll let you get on :D Equinox 22:38, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: Can you remember the name of the station? Anyway, it's bedtime for me, time can fly when you're having fun. DonnanZ (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
I can't find it now but if you spend a while "YouTubing" around Betjeman and trains then you will find it. (The first suggestion is Kings Lynn which definitely isn't right.) Sweet dreams :D Equinox 23:01, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
P.S. Did you know there is a station called "IBM" (because there used to be a big IBM plant there): it is still there, not sure if IBM is still there though! Yeah I'm sure you knew. Equinox 23:13, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: Now you've got me, I've got two things to check in the morning. G'night. DonnanZ (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Lympstone Commando railway station is also pretty hilarious, try getting off the train there with an iPhone and a burqa. IF YOU'RE READING THIS YOU SHOULD TURN OFF YOUR PHONE. SLEEPY TIME. Equinox 23:25, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: I don't have a mobile anyway, so I am spared from that modern addiction. John Betjeman: I'm still stuck on that one, he did one film on the Kings Lynn to Hunstanton line, which I watched. That line closed years ago, but Kings Lynn is still open. How things have changed, you can't lean out of windows any more, and can't smoke on trains let alone platforms. Grr. IBM railway station is in Scotland, didn't appear in timetables to begin with as it was only supposed to serve IBM, it's still there but not as busy as it used to be. It isn't shown on a 1984 OS map I have (Landranger 63). Lympstone Commando is a bit like Longcross railway station, built in WWII to serve an MoD facility. It's still open, but hardly any trains stop there now, and it's nowhere near any housing. I went there on a bike ride once, when I was much younger (and more athletic).
BTW, I need to archive some of this stuff, but what's the procedure? DonnanZ (talk) 10:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
In that Hunstanton film I caught a glimpse of a loading gauge, which were used in goods yards to check the height of wagon loads. I would add that to the entry if I could find a decent image on Commons. DonnanZ (talk) 11:38, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I can't say I miss the slam-door stock (they confused me a bit as a kid) but maybe some day I will. To archive: you can just create a subpage of your choice, like User talk:Donnanz/2018, and shift stuff over there. I don't know if there's any automated way. I just delete mine but some people get a bit upset about that. Equinox 22:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
BTW that Longcross station is very near me! Nobody ever goes there unless they are working at the film studio. I don't know how many trains stop there but I frequently ride that line and I can almost never remember seeing it. Equinox 22:41, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: In fact I think the 125s still have the door handles on the outside. I travelled on one on the way home after meeting you in Oxford last summer (maybe we should do another one of those sometime), and I'm sure I had to reach out of the window at Reading. I'll look at the archiving tomorrow, cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 23:10, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Ah yeah I've also been re-watching David Suchet's Poirot and you realise how much harder it would be to do a good murder on a train if there was only a door for every 40 seats. LOL. Yeah we should meet next summer, perhaps at Blotto's house while he is out. Equinox 23:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Equinox: Ah yes, compartments and no corridors. And footwarmers. I kid you not, overnight country trains in NSW still had them in 1970-71 when I was there. It can get quite cold there inland in the winter, with frost on the ground and at that time coal fires in the waiting rooms of country stations. And Semper would love that (where does he live again?). DonnanZ (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I remember Longcross used to have a military guard on the gate to the platform in MoD days. DonnanZ (talk) 10:39, 10 September 2018 (UTC)


diff: I don't know what rules you're talking about. I didn't remove your nomination, I moved it to the place where it belongs: it lacks a quote, so it's not ready, simple as that. What exactly are you complaining about? Per utramque cavernam 23:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: You didn't move it, I did. I was unaware of the changes that had been made since my last visit. Goodnight. DonnanZ (talk) 23:31, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Please do let me know if I missed something. Goodnight. Per utramque cavernam 00:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
And I wonder who introduced this confoundedly complicated new system? You can't blame me for that. Rectified. DonnanZ (talk) 08:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Yep, unnecessarily complicated. --WF110 (talk) 09:41, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


It looks like your edits to albino made it disappear from the Nynorsk nouns page, but it is still marked as a noun on albino. Am I looking in the wrong place or misunderstanding something?

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Norwegian_Nynorsk_nouns C0rn3j (talk) 09:05, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

@C0rn3j: Fixed, a mistake I made here diff. Sorry about that. DonnanZ (talk) 09:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
No problem, thanks for a quick fix C0rn3j (talk) 10:22, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


It looks like even the translator was having a bad day understanding some of the words in my book since they're made up, so sorry in advance if I accidentally post some of those in the requests page.

Post from 2014 and the book is still not released in English :D

C0rn3j (talk) 16:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

  • @C0rn3j: I'm not a registered user on Facebook, and they are so mean now, I am not allowed to look even. I will have a look at the word, but I can't promise anything. DonnanZ (talk) 16:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Am not logged in either, and on Firefox(Windows UA) there's a "Not Now" button on the bottom of the popup for me. That said here's a screencap.
Also question, is there any point for me to provide the meaning I was able to find into the request form(besides asking a question about it?)? I know the form says yes, but since you're the only one who is doing the entries at the moment I figured I might as well ask. You said you look it up in your sources anyway C0rn3j (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@C0rn3j: I had a look on Google; the occurrences of this word all seem to go back to your book, so it is possibly a fictive word. But you can still include what you think the translation is. DonnanZ (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Weird format of some entriesEdit

Finally got rid of the last big remaining problem in my script so focusing on smaller things again.

  • høyt, feid - I'd expect those to end a line entry at "neuter singular of WORD", instead, they continue and have more info after that.

Is this fine formatting or is it based on an older template?

  • botn - I'd expect the "Bottom, alternative of X" line to not be there and instead another noun definition be there that just says "Alternative of X"

Thanks a lot for your time.

C0rn3j (talk) 22:47, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

@C0rn3j: All revised. I kept a note using {{q}} at feid as the infinitive feide is not entered yet. Qualifiers don't seem to ring your alarm bells. DonnanZ (talk) 11:57, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Become an admin alreadyEdit

Hey. Serisouly, it's time for you to take on the awesome responsibility of adminship. --XY3999 (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

@XY3999: I turned it down once before, but there are times when it would be useful. DonnanZ (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I think you've turned it down at least twice, actually. C'mon, get on board. What's the worst that could happen? --XY3999 (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@XY3999: No, only the once, Pseudoskull wanted to nominate me, here. I wasn't ready for it then, but I wouldn't mind now. I still have some life left in me. DonnanZ (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
This is where to accept --XY3999 (talk) 23:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@XY3999:. OK, accepted. I have suggested delaying the vote until after December 5, when the vote for Mnemosientje finishes. BTW, does this mean I have to be nice to you? DonnanZ (talk) 23:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Meh, it doesn't matter if there are 2 votes at once. It's just a wiki vote, not a general election. --XY3999 (talk) 00:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
And I just read the Wiktionary guide to being an admin and yes, it does state that you have to be nice to me. --XY3999 (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, D, you nearly got it! Perhaps I could have waited a while to get you enough votes to get adminship. --Love Young (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
@Love Young: Why do you keep changing your user name? I plan to keep mine until I drop dead. Yes, Metaknowledge was the fly in the ointment. I am not happy with the "fail" decision, that should be changed to "no consensus". DonnanZ (talk) 12:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
That description of me is not exactly an encouragement to support you in a future admin vote... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:03, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I change username because I keep getting blocked! And possibly for nonstandard indentations in Talk pages. --Love Young (talk) 10:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Love Young: You will have to look into the reasons why you get blocked, and try to prevent it happening (some admins may do it for fun). DonnanZ (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: OK, sorry, I have struck removed the potentially offensive part. DonnanZ (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not offended; I just think it's a poor move if you want to turn opposers into supporters. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Oh, that's a relief. It was really meant for emphasis anyway, not offence. It will stay deleted. DonnanZ (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

hot upEdit

Can you please add transitive/intransitive tags to this, please Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not absolutely sure, it's not my speciality. DonnanZ (talk) 10:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)


Hi Donnanz ! I see that you have converted gainchare to Middle English...yet, there is no Middle English attestation of gainchare. Gainchare is EME (16th c). (cf. Scots gane-char). Should we move it to one of the ME spellings ? What should become of gainchare ? Oblivion ? Leasnam (talk) 03:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Not guilty m'lord, it was already done here. I merely changed {{etyl}} to {{der}}. DonnanZ (talk) 07:59, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh my bad sir...my apologies Leasnam (talk) 19:21, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


Why'd you undo my edit on Carrollton? Julia 14:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@Julia: Your edit removed all useful information, making the entry virtually useless. DonnanZ (talk) 14:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

cutting, cutEdit

This Google NGrams frequency comparison suggests that cut may be more common, though other collocations and other corpora may yield different results. DCDuring (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

@DCDuring: In my experience cutting is used in this sense in BrE, and cut in AmE. DonnanZ (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: The image I added to cutting was taken at my local railway station. DonnanZ (talk) 20:07, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I'd say that labels should show this. When I was a child I had an inordinate interest in railroads (NOT 'railways'!), the vestiges of which remain. I used to read Trains, Model Railroader, and Railroad Model Craftsman every month, because my grandparents had a magazine rack at their candy store/ice-cream parlor/luncheonette. DCDuring (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: OK, I added a label to cutting, Oxford confirms this sense is British. It will be WOTD at some stage, hopefully later this year. I too grew up as a railfan, watching steam trains in my home town, and I also loved Trains magazine, which was available in NZ. I have travelled by train in NZ, Australia, Hong Kong, India, Greece, Turkey, Belgium, as well as England, Scotland and Wales. Trains and railways still have a fascination for me, and I have quite a few books and old magazines. DonnanZ (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


There is a use of oversightly in a passage taken from Usenet by a Norwegian discussant. Could it be a calque or a false friend of some kind? DCDuring (talk) 13:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@DCDuring: I'm afraid I have no idea, oversightly is not a term I'm familiar with anyway. I assume you are referring to the last one (Terje J. Hanssen) but I don't see any Norwegian text. Is there any? DonnanZ (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I just thought he might have made up an English word based on a Norwegian word, in which case the citation should be removed as it is of an error. DCDuring (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: OK, fair enough. If in doubt, leave out. DonnanZ (talk) 14:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


Could you check that entry in the English Wiktionary? Seems you are the one who made the translation «put on». You are the native speaker among the two of us, however I am not certain this one is correct. «Påtatt» in Norwegian means feigned, ingeniune etc. The origin of the word is probably the past participle of påta. That means rather something like assume or take on («påta» seg et ansvar). «Ta på» is easily confused with påta but means something else. See also påtagelig, which means something entirely different altogether :) Confusing, isn't it ;)
- Teodor (dc) 21:46, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Teodor605: It looks like I got it from Einar Haugen's Norwegian-English Dictionary published by the University of Wisconsin where Haugen was employed. It could be an Americanism, but I think I know what is meant, something like a put on (or put-on) act. The entry for put in Lexico doesn't help much, the closest I could find is "put someone on", but looking at the references at put on in OneLook Dictionary Search, Merriam Webster has something that seems to agree. Or I can remove it (from påtatt) if you prefer. DonnanZ (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
@Donnanz: Okay. In that case I don't know exactly what to do. My English is quite good but I'm not totally fluent. I think Einar Haugen was, though. Personally, I would remove it if there was any doubt.
- Teodor (dc) 20:51, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
@Teodor605: OK, I removed it. I think Haugen's dictionary is a bit out of date now, but it's still useful all the same. DonnanZ (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


Where are the previous WoTDs listed?

@Alfredo Valente: Look in the top right-hand corner of the entries for sanguine and gallivant and you will find a small WOTD note. If you click on the note the WOTD history will be shown. If you can check in future before making nominations that would be great. DonnanZ (talk) 08:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


What have you been snapping, out of curiosity? I don't have a good camera, or much interest in the subject, but I do sometimes go walking and think "wow that would make an amazing free picture for toadstool" or something :) Equinox 15:05, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: Well, I'm particularly interested in transport subjects, such as buses and trains, but other things get in the way of my camera too. Now that I have mastered the art of uploading onto my computer, and from there onto Wikimedia Commons, I have added a few to Wiktionary. I will let you be the judge, one or two aren't that brilliant, I can be self-critical. You can find a couple on my user page, also at cutting, footbridge, turning circle, suburbia, manhole, blind, fork, level crossing, bus stand, ferryboat, day tripper, rowing boat, ice cream van, single-decker, and alight, the last two today. In some cases nominations for WOTD have been the motive. Please be critical! DonnanZ (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Wow, these are genuinely great! -- and helpful to readers. (I'm annoyed at seeing some irrelevant pics added in some places: a fruit and stethoscope will not help readers to understand "an apple a day keeps the doctor away".) Nice work. Now you should go through the railways category and do some of the nerdier things that are not easily understood from reading a line of text. But be careful 'cause they will try to fine you £1K if you go strolling on the railway line. Equinox 16:58, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Equinox: Someone else has been reading this, the image at day tripper has been moved to day-tripper. Grrr. Many entries are probably difficult to illustrate, maybe a light-bulb moment is needed. No, I don't wander on railway lines here, back home in my youth it was a lot easier. I was told off for sitting on a handy buffer beam at Hampton Court, no seats on the platform, only on the forecourt. I have a lot of old B/W photos that have managed to survive, but getting them onto Commons is a challenge - one of a no parking sign "No parking - except railway wagons" in my home town, another of racing pigeons being released from a cage or basket on the station platform at Palmerston in NZ - something you don't see any more like many old railway things. Maybe a visit to a heritage railway should be on my agenda - Alresford, Didcot? There may be some suitable images on Commons already. DonnanZ (talk) 17:49, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Don't panic: a day tripper is a day-tripper. lol. About once a year I see an ancient steam locomotive chug through my local station. I think it's a Harry Potter tourist thing...? Gawd knows. Also about once a year I get an actual seat on the Reading to Redhill train after work, which is three carriages (thanks!) filled with sweaty businessmen. It's better to wait ten minutes and do the crappy Metro crossword and head to Waterloo. Equinox 17:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Equinox: I don't know which should be the main form, day tripper, day-tripper or daytripper - probably not the latter. I don't think I have ever travelled on the Reading-Redhill line, something I should do. It was built before the Waterloo line I think. I think it appears in the 1850 Bradshaw but I can't find it at the moment. Anyway, thanks for the support! DonnanZ (talk) 18:20, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Could you get an image of someone tapping in to or out of the Metro? I heard the terms recently after many years without riding the Tube. y first response, naturally, was "does WT have an entry for these?" I was not surprised to find out that we did not. --Mélange a trois (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
@Mélange a trois: I have never heard the term, I'm not sure what you mean by by tapping in or out. Are you referring to scanning Oyster Cards, Freedom Passes and the like at the ticket barriers? I live near the London Underground and stations on the Waterloo lines, nowhere near a metro. DonnanZ (talk) 21:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
It's an Oystercard thing --Mélange a trois (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh, and ticket barrier could do with an image (and an entry, CTMI) --Mélange a trois (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
@Mélange a trois: OK, I'm getting the picture (not a pun). I know I don't have any images of people scanning tickets when passing through ticket barriers, so I would have to take some on my next day out, probably this month. Or if you can't wait you can search on Wikimedia Commons using keywords. DonnanZ (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
I took a photo today of an old Bradshaw that I have. It looks good, so I probably will be able to add it to that entry. DonnanZ (talk) 22:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
An entry for ticket barrier   done. Now I will have to find or create an image. DonnanZ (talk) 09:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Using your own template for derived termsEdit

Hi :)

I just saw that you added a personal template in mainspace here. Could you explain why? I suggest you change it to der-top or der-top3 instead.--So9q (talk) 06:58, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

A lot of templates which used to work perfectly well have been butchered. Template {{der3-u}} has been replaced by {{col3-u}}, {{der3}} still exists. These templates were altered so part of the contents is shown instead of all being hidden, something I have never liked. In addition they don't automatically balance properly. This template was created for me so I use it for Norwegian entries only, it gives the appearance I desire. I also use der-top or der-top3 in English entries. DonnanZ (talk) 07:42, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi. It's a bad idea to use a private template in mainspace. I'm going to bot-replace all of these with {{col3-u}}. If you don't like the way that {{col3-u}} works, you should bring it up in the WT:Beer Parlour instead of creating a privately forked template. The issue of showing part of the contents is a matter of taste for certain, but Wiktionary should be consistent about it rather than reflecting personal preferences of individual editors. As for not automatically balancing properly, I'm not sure what this refers to, can you explain? Benwing2 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2: You don't need to look very far for examples, try bus#Derived terms and many others. I objected strongly to partially hidden sections when they were first introduced, and I still dislike them and their appearance, {{der3-u}} worked beautifully until Erutuon started tampering with it, far better than the present {{col3-u}}. I also object to bot replacement, in this case misuse of a bot, if you do that I will be forced to reconvert them to {{der-top3}}. A lot of hard work but that's how I feel. I would prefer that {{col3-u}} was reverted back to {{der3-u}}'s original state. What worked perfectly in the first place shouldn't have been buggered around with. I used to be quite keen on converting English derived terms sections to {{der3}} etc. until the presentation was ruined, now I prefer using or keeping {{der-top3}} and others. The private template was created for my user page, so leave that alone, OK? DonnanZ (talk) 10:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2: I see completely collapsible lists was discussed, I think that such a list could be able to be closed after opening at the bottom as well as the top, that would possibly resolve issues about scrolling up a long way to close the list. DonnanZ (talk) 10:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Hi. I won't make any bot substitutions of this template for now, but we should figure out a solution, because having user-space templates in mainspace entries is wrong. User templates are meant for private use only, and as User:Erutuon mentioned in Module talk:columns/old, he created the template for use on your user page and didn't expect you to start putting them in mainspace entries. As I mentioned on that same talk page, we could potentially add a |collapse=1 flag to {{col3}} etc. to implement a list that is completely collapsed by default, although someone like User:Erutuon or User:Rua might object; I don't know. I still fail to see what's wrong with bus#Derived terms; I see three lines and a "See more" link, is the partial term display the only thing you're objecting to or is there something else? Benwing2 (talk) 16:43, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2: At bus#Derived terms clicking on "show more" shows columns containing 5/5/3 entries, I don't call that balanced, 5/4/4 would be more appropriate and is what used to happen pre-Erutuon. I will consider your other comments later. DonnanZ (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out. I think this should be fixable. User:Erutuon, could you look into this? I don't really know very well how this module works or where, for example, the specification that 3 lines are displayed by default is found. Is this in CSS somewhere? Benwing2 (talk) 17:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2: That's a consequence of the column-count CSS property. The browser divides up the columns, and it does it in this way. If the list items don't divide evenly by the number of columns, the last column is the one that loses out on list items. The previous version of {{der3}} used a module function and losses were distributed among all columns except the leftmost (I guess). I haven't seen anything on changing the way that CSS columns behave when apportioning content, and didn't find anything, though I'm not sure what search query to use. The CSS behavior seems like the way that content would be apportioned in a newspaper or magazine. — Eru·tuon 17:41, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Hmm, as was remarked on before somewhere, the CSS column balancing doesn't mesh well with hiding part of the list. If, say, the columns are four lines high, two items are missing from the third column (column_number - list_items % column_number = 2), and the gadget hides all but three lines of each column, then there will be a gap in the third column in the collapsed state. The collapsed state should always have equal columns. — Eru·tuon 18:12, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@Erutuon: I came across an odd example at stock#Hyponyms showing 4 uncollapsed lines, with three entries in the 4th column, clicking on "show more" reveals a lot more entries. This is hardly satisfactory, I am more convinced than ever that this system should be scrapped if no solution can be found. DonnanZ (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Mind you, this display is affected by some entries being forced to use two lines. There are still four entries in the 3rd column though, perhaps because of this. Maybe it should be reduced to 3 columns. DonnanZ (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Template for literal description of phrases and idiomsEdit

See få fingeren ud af røven for its name and use.--So9q (talk) 16:13, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

@So9q: That sounds like pull one's finger out. DonnanZ (talk) 16:24, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, its probably borrowed from English! Thanks a lot :)--So9q (talk) 18:56, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you'll appreciate this and haven't heard iitEdit

In the US Southeast a once-common expression was: "I don't know whether when I die I will go to Heaven or Hell, but I do know I will have to change trains in Atlanta." DCDuring (talk) 10:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

@DCDuring: No, I hadn't heard it, it sounds ironic. If I want to get from my side of London to the other I have to change trains somewhere, often twice. But what prompted this? DonnanZ (talk) 11:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Your interest in railways; my random firing of neurons. DCDuring (talk) 12:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Ah. You may like the images I added to canopy, signal bridge, semaphore signal, and at cutting which shows a two-aspect signal. Oh, Bradshaw too. DonnanZ (talk) 12:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I haven't seen such signals in the US in quite a while, not that I would even know where to look. My commuter railroad and the Amtrak lines have long tunnels in which they would be no more useful in a power outage than a lights-only signal. DCDuring (talk) 13:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: If it's semaphore signals you're referring to, they have probably all gone, except on heritage railroads maybe. There are pockets of semaphore signalling remaining in the UK which will gradually be replaced by colour lights - there haven't been any semaphores around my area for decades. DonnanZ (talk) 13:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Precise originEdit

Hi. I have seen that you have been wholesale replacing {{etyl}} with {{der}}, irrespective of whether most of the terms concerned are actually inherited or borrowed. While it is good that you are removing that deprecated template, I earnestly beg you to forbear doing so, for it will generate wrong categories and thereby make wrong etymological implications. So when unsure whether a word is inherited ({{inh}}) or borrowed ({{bor}}), I suggest you look up the Wikipedia article on the history (internal or external) of the language concerned; otherwise you may even ping me in the comment section for help. Thanks. —Lbdñk (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

The way etymologies are categorised is not carved in stone, so you can always change them. There is often excessive use of {{inh}} anyway. DonnanZ (talk) 19:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Well, "excessive use" of {{inh}}? I have, on t'other hand, seen you using {{der}} even, for example, for English words inherited from Middle and Old English; and for words of sundry Romance languages inherited from Vulgar Latin. —Lbdñk (talk) 20:15, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
As I said, you can change them, and do outstanding cleanups yourself to ensure they are done to your satisfaction. I change excessive use of {{inh}}, words derived from gem-pro or ine-pro are usually too far back to be inherited. DonnanZ (talk) 20:59, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

the full quidEdit

Hi. "Uncountable" means it isn't used with "a" or "the": some rice, little flour, much sugar. "Countable" means it is used with "a" or "the": an apple, many cats. That's not the same as "no plural found in usage" so I have changed this to {{en-noun|!}}. Equinox 20:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: Well, I won't argue the toss, apparently this is the antipodean version. I do think it is usually in the negative as a phrase, "not the full quid" as in the reference, so it wouldn't be a noun anyway. It sprang into my mind when I reverted the inept edit of another user. DonnanZ (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Norwegian translationsEdit

Hi. Do you still work with Norwegian? If I regularly added requests for translations into Norwegian, would you take care of them? PUC – 16:16, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@PUC: You can add them by all means - I have had a few months' break from Norwegian. I hadn't looked in that file, and I'm wondering why island is in there - it shouldn't be - see there and øy. I will get back to Norwegian sometime, I'm not quite sure when. DonnanZ (talk) 16:45, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! As for island being in that list, it's because someone has requested a translation of the verb to island. PUC – 10:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
@PUC: Yes, I discovered that this morning. I did one for adult education (voksenopplæring) yesterday - adult education probably has no chance of getting an entry, sadly. DonnanZ (talk) 10:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
You know I tend to disagree with you on that point (although I've relaxed a bit about it) - for me, it's good that we don't allow too many SOP terms. But let's not argue about that!
Anyway, I've added a few requests: war leader, spike strip, put on a pedestal, change hands. You'll notice that I very much like working with idioms. PUC – 13:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
@PUC: Hmm, OK, they will have to wait until I get back into the swing of things. Even war leader is not as simple as I thought, which was krigsleder. I prefer to work from Norwegian text that I read, not the other way round. DonnanZ (talk) 13:56, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


Hi Don, I have edited your entry (thanks) using {{uxi}} for the examples. I don't think it's a noun but a pronoun , which is what "everthing" is. It isn't in any of my dictionaries or Βικιλεξικό, so I'll copy this in to one of our Greek speakers @Sarri.greek and hope that she can help. — Saltmarsh. 11:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: It wasn't my entry, so do what you like. I was merely replacing {{etyl}} with {{der}}. DonnanZ (talk) 11:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello @Donnanz, Saltmarsh, yes, Salt you are right, this adjective may also play the role of an indefinite pronoun (I didn't know it! It is a subtle syntax). As for the substitution of 'etyl', it may by either inherited or a learned internal borrowing from more ancient phases. {{R:DSMG}} uses the indicator 'λόγ. < αρχ.' (learned < ancient) for the second, and no indicator for direct inheritance: [< αρχ.] ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 12:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: As long as {{etyl}} is replaced, you can change it. I am not going to indulge in debating what it should be. DonnanZ (talk) 12:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

etyl cleanupEdit

Hi. What you are doing about etyl/der/inh templates can most certainly be done using a bot. Another benefit of it is that it won't mess up my watchlist every day as well. Seriously, direct your energy for better causes. Dixtosa (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Dixtosa: Well, I have had my watch list messed up many a time by various bots, but there's nothing I can do about it. I assume you are referring to Category:etyl cleanup/ka, where your name features quite prominently. This has to be cleaned up sooner or later, so you can do the job yourself, or failing that I will carry on cleaning it up at my current rate (one or two a day). Etyl cleanups take up a small amount of my time, by the way - usually about twenty a day. DonnanZ (talk) 18:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
It's hard for me to be sure, since admins see different options for some menus, but there should be a checkbox in the watchlist page for hiding bot edits. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:48, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Yes, I had forgotten about that, but hadn't wanted to use it in the past. I now find a box on the right-hand side of my watchlist: "Edit your list of watched pages"; clicking on that brings up, after a wait, a message "Internal error" "WMF Timeout Exception". So it's not working for me now, not to worry.
Every page has a "Watch this page" box - this can be ticked when editing it. This box is added automatically to pages you create, already ticked, which is useful as it is added to the number of pages an editor has created (over 63,000 in my case). If I really wanted to I could "unwatch" them by "unticking" this box. But with 63,000 pages involved, it would be a long job to "unwatch" them all! DonnanZ (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
So basically your response was "I do not care" ?
I will clean up etyl cleanup/ka category sooner or later and it will be a quick sweep through. Also I have found at least one sloppy diff of yours - why would this not be an inheritance? Dixtosa (talk) 13:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: I will take ka/Georgian off my list, as you prefer to be critical. You only have 2,731 more to clean up. Have fun. DonnanZ (talk) 13:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Splitting Template:no-noun-inflEdit

Hi, what do you think of splitting Template:no-noun-infl (currently includes inflections both Bokmål and Nynorsk) into separate nb- and nn- inflection Templates? (Metaknowledge suggested that I check with you before going ahead with splitting it, in the Wiktionary Discord chat.) – Kritixilithos (talk) 08:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Kritixilithos: Maybe you can try contacting the template's creator, User:Njardarlogar, a native Norwegian Nynorsk speaker. He is relatively inactive now, but is apparently still around. I can see some value in it for comparisons at a glance, but I can also see Bokmål omissions like masculine bruen (from bru). Nouns that are feminine in Nynorsk are both masculine and feminine in Bokmål. DonnanZ (talk) 10:33, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Kåre-Olav created that template. I stopped using that template in favour of the family of templates for the headword line that {{nn-noun-n1}} belongs to. These template use Lua and are more intelligent. Unless you think putting the inflections in a table is important, I would recommend using the templates for the headword line. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Njardarlogar: Oh, sorry, I didn't realise there is another page of template history. So what should happen to this template? Just ignore it? DonnanZ (talk) 10:58, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
I added a notice to the template documentation. This template still sees some use (like at buddhist), and it should work well enough (the text Nynorsk in the table is of course redundant in a section dedicated to Nynorsk); but it should be updated or split. Some contributors prefer tables over putting the inflected forms in the headword line, so there is also that. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Alright, I'll go ahead with splitting it. From Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2020/July#Verb_and_Noun_templates_for_the_Norwegian_language, User:Supevan suggested adding the genitive case for nouns, so there's another reason to prefer a table. Thank you for your input, @Njardarlogar:. – Kritixilithos (talk) 11:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Kritixilithos: Genitive forms just add an "s" so there's no point in recording them. I would never make entries for them. I prefer the templates currently in use, I find tables to be a nuisance and have replaced them in the past. DonnanZ (talk) 12:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
There is a good case for recording passive forms of verbs, however, e.g. gis. DonnanZ (talk) 12:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your opinion, I'll stick with User:Njardarlogar's headword template for nouns, so I'll start to clean existing entries by replacing tables with the appropriate headline templates. So for verbs, would you agree to having verb inflections as a table? User:Supevan mentioned several cases which don't seem to be in the existing verb headline inflection templates. Kritixilithos (talk) 12:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Kritixilithos: No, I think the current presentation of verb inflections is clear enough. Some verbs are irregular, by the way. DonnanZ (talk) 13:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
By "current presentation of verb inflections" are you only referring to its format or do you also mean there is no need to add additional verb cases? Kritixilithos (talk) 13:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


Hey. How's your gateleg table going? --Java Beauty (talk) 16:09, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

@Java Beauty: Yeah, I'm quite pleased with it. I bought it second-hand from a furniture place in my own street. It's oval when opened out and quite ornate, with a carved pattern all round the edge. I bought it for spreading maps out on - I'm a map collector too. I will take some photos of it when I'm in the mood, and add one to gateleg, per your request. I will have to tidy up the room first! DonnanZ (talk) 16:40, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
I look forward to the pic. I have this mental image of you, as a well-built, stubbled Scandinavian in corduroys looking over your gateleg table draped in an ancient map, with a magnifying glass, cross-referencing it with WT and adding any entries missing for boring places like Acton Pigott. Java Beauty (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
@Java Beauty: Your mental image is all wrong I'm afraid; I did discover Four Shire Stone though, an interesting name. DonnanZ (talk) 22:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Hindi etyl cleanupEdit

Could you please not go through that category? Adding {{der}} is not useful as a change. I'm going through them when I can, ideally it should be {{inh}} or {{bor}} being used. Thanks. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 04:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Don't leave it too long, or it will be cleaned up by default. DonnanZ (talk) 08:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


Would be a typical entry for Donnanz to make. --Java Beauty (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

@Java Beauty: Was there any particular place you had in mind? I had a job and a half confirming the UK places as they are rather "map-shy", particularly in Cumbernauld; Ipswich is new so there's an excuse in that case. There's still red links in Wikipedia for places in the Scottish Borders and West Sussex, but I might be able to find them later. DonnanZ (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Good job! I was working through an old word-frequency list, which has got a few useful red links amongst the crap. --Java Beauty (talk) 11:43, 22 September 2020 (UTC)


...would be a typical Donnanz entry to make. It's a homophone Darren X. Thorsson (talk) 23:32, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Darren X. Thorsson:   Done. There is only one place with that name and spelling as far as I can tell. DonnanZ (talk) 00:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Bringing back ƿynn entriesEdit

Dear Donnanz, hello, I'm sorry for bothering you, the thing is there was a vote to remove all ƿynn entries and it was successful. - Wiktionary:Votes/2020-09/Removing_Old_English_entries_with_wynns.

I know that you are most likely not involved in this subject and I feel really uncomfortable to disturb you, but I was told you might be inclined to assist if I make a convincing argument.

There is a discussion about it on the Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2020/November page - [[3]]. I hope the arguments you find there can be convincing. If there were a vote to bring these entries back, would you support it? Sorry for taking your time. Birdofadozentides (talk) 23:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

County AntrimEdit

...would be an obvious Donnanz entry to make (really surprised we didn't have it yet! And the other Northern Irish counties) Returning2stadia (talk) 20:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, come on! We don't have Lough Neagh or even Neagh. Returning2stadia (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
That "oh, come on" was a general comment about Wiktionary, not aimed at you in the slightest Returning2stadia (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@Returning2stadia: This hasn't been done for any Irish county, north or south. As far as I can make out "County" is an optional affix, the Official Road Atlas Ireland published by Ordnance Survey Ireland, which covers all of Ireland, doesn't show "County" on the maps, but "Co Roscommon" etc. appears in the index. I will have to think about this as each county is listed in Wiktionary without the County affix, but Wikipedia has County entries. Maybe "alternative form" or "synonym" entries for each one is the way out. County Durham has a entry though.
As for Lough Neagh, I think that's definitely worth an entry, like Loch Ness. Maybe an entry for Neagh is not the right way to go. DonnanZ (talk) 21:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Neagh is definitely worth adding. It's a homophone, for a start, something for which I've acquired a certain fetish over the last few years. Returning2stadia (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@Returning2stadia: The IPA is /neɪ/, according to Lexico. You can look at Category:en:Places in Northern Ireland, where Benwing2/Wingerbot created county categories with the affix "County" - hmm... DonnanZ (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
  • So, I got uncharacteristically impatient and made a sub-standard entry. Returning2stadia (talk) 22:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@Returning2stadia: Lough Neagh   Done, but I have no plans at the moment to add an entry for Neagh. I will tidy up County Antrim later. DonnanZ (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Your comment about ghosts towns and suchEdit

You have said the following in a comment at the RFD for Moscow: "Even if a place becomes a ghost town or loses its population and buildings, the location can still be known by the name it had in the past. For that reason, I find it better to include all places with the name, regardless of population or the lack of it." That is a great point. We in fact have a few Dutch proper-noun entries for former settlements (e.g. West-Vlieland) and also for former geographical features (notable ones are Zuiderzee and Schokland). I am sure there are examples in other languages as well. By the way, do you know some good Norwegian FWOTD candidates? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Yes, I remember reading the name Zuiderzee in particular. Then there are other names which have been changed, e.g. Van Diemen's Land. In England I come across references to names of medieval villages which have disappeared, but still lend their name to the local area, the sites of the villages can be marked on large-scale Ordnance Survey maps. I believe some villages in East Yorkshire have disappeared over the years, due to coastal erosion eating away the cliffs they stood on.
Regarding FWOTD, I got fed up with it and stopped making nominations. I haven't done much Norwegian stuff this year, but if I come across something interesting I will consider nominating it. I prefer to not nominate entries I have created though, and there's plenty of those. DonnanZ (talk) 11:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)


Hey, how are you doing? I was looking at how you placed Template:place on that page, and saw that it was giving the category Category:en:Counties of England to the page; but it is a body of water, not a county. I can't figure out why the template is doing is. Do you have any idea? PseudoSkull (talk) 20:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: Yeah, I really messed it up, and had to resort to an alternative method without altering your wording too much. I hope it is OK now, I wanted to add it to both Places in Cornwall and Places in Devon as well as England, as it's between the two (like Solway Firth between England and Scotland). DonnanZ (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)


Hi. Lorca needs a bit of Donnanz template magic Kilo Lima Mike (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Kilo Lima Mike: I've   done the city in Murcia, but there's another village or something called Lorca in Navarra. What do you think? DonnanZ (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I personally don't care about settlements with 131 inhabitants. Do as you wish. BTW, thanks, and I love you. Kilo Lima Mike (talk) 22:33, 30 December 2020 (UTC)


...would be a typical... Kilo Lima Mike (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge has quite annoyingly pulled his usual stunt, blocking you. I will create an entry later. DonnanZ (talk) 10:46, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
With no thanks to @Metaknowledge, I was unable to ask whether a French or English entry was wanted. I decided to create one in English; there are two places with the same name in the same region. BTW, I liked the KLM user name. DonnanZ (talk) 13:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Blocking a permanently banned user is a stunt? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:35, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: It would appear that you tolerate WF, and turn a blind eye, as long as he doesn't vote [4] or do anything admin-like, including nominating someone for admin, as I found out to my cost. Personally my dealings with him have usually been friendly. Is there any way you can give him limited user status, with short bans (not permanent ones) if he oversteps the line? That would be preferable (for everybody) to his having to invent a new user name all the time. DonnanZ (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
He seems to like switching accounts, based on his requests for blocks. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:44, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I was unaware of that, can you provide an example? DonnanZ (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Vitoscots (talkcontribs): diff, diff; Stubborn Pen (talkcontribs): diff. See WT:WF. PUC – 20:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
In this case, his last edit summary offers a hint: diff, and the intent of 3 of his previous account's last 4 edits is pretty obvious in an indirect sort of way: diff, diff, and diff. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:22, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm not even going to try analysing that sort of behaviour. So my idea won't work. A shame. DonnanZ (talk) 22:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Nominated you to become an adminEdit

Hi DonnanZ. I nominated you to become an admin: Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2021-01/User:Donnanz for admin I hope you'll accept. You'd be great in the role. — Dentonius 21:55, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

  • I really do understand how you feel. Nobody likes being bashed. If the roles were reversed, I'd be hesitant. But I would do it, because despite what I know about how people here feel about me, I still can't read the future. Opportunity knocks only once. In your case, twice. There may never be another chance ... It's not just about you; it's about the ideas you represent and what they would mean for the community. — Dentonius 00:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@Dentonius: @Metaknowledge @Imetsia: Thank you for the kind words. As I knew what happened before, I was hesitant to accept the nomination, and by the time I arrived on the scene voting had started already (without my acceptance) and things were going badly. So for the sake of my pride, I had to pull the plug. As for Imetsia not liking the way I vote in RFD, the feeling is mutual. Tough. So if there are no more objections to my contributions over the years, can I carry on until I drop dead? I hope so, these lockdowns we're having are terribly boring. DonnanZ (talk) 05:53, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I also think you vote in RFD without following policy as a guide, but you're a diligent editor. I do hope you keep contributing entries here, ill-considered votes notwithstanding. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I am not going to rubber-stamp every RFD by voting delete, good entries can be lost that way. And I don't vote in every one. DonnanZ (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
  • DonnanZ, I'm sorry. It was wrong of me to nominate you without waiting to find out how you'd feel about it. I also forgot the most important thing: happy New Year. Everything I said about you was true, by the way. You're one of the people here who makes me feel as if we're really contributing and not just building on a foundation of sand. What you do is important. Keep on doing what you do. — Dentonius 08:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
As I wrote elsewhere, a happier new year to you all, and good riddance to 2020. DonnanZ (talk) 10:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Just keep up the good work - I've never had an issue with your contributions, neither to the project nor how you vote. Happy New Year and let's hope these lockdowns end soon (or you can always move to Sweden ;-) --Robbie SWE (talk) 11:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Sweden?, New Zealand? The misguided Brexiteers have scuppered a move to Sweden, and I would need a container ship to move all my stuff. Twickenham is not so bad, it has one of the lowest COVID rates in London. DonnanZ (talk) 11:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Let's hope Twickenham stays that way throughout this pandemic. Yeah, my second home London has broken my heart, but we'll meet again, somewhere, someday...--Robbie SWE (talk) 11:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

{{inh}} vs. {{der}}Edit

Hey, just something I noticed -- you've converted some cases of {{etyl}} to {{der}} when they should use {{inh}}, e.g. on Enterich, Enzian, Epitheton. Benwing2 (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2: That's the automaton in me eliminating {{etyl}} which is the primary objective - they can always be altered to {{inh}} or whatever. I note that that you have made a big impact on the outstanding etyl cleanups for German, now around 350 - well done.
Anyway, I needed to contact you on matters re Places in Wales. There is Category:en:Places in Cardiff, which is useful; the same is needed for Category:en:Places in Newport and Category:en:Places in Swansea - Newport and Swansea are both principal areas of Wales like Cardiff is (Local government in Wales in Wikipedia). In addition to that, civil parishes in Wales are confusingly called communities, which can have community councils or town councils, or in many cases no council at all (Community (Wales) in Wikipedia). So it may be a good idea to create a Category:en:Communities of Wales similar to Category:en:Civil parishes of England. DonnanZ (talk) 10:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Another thought: Provinces in South Africa don't seem to have categories either. DonnanZ (talk) 10:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Apologies, I'll look into this over the weekend. As for German, I have another round of changes coming to eliminate the remaining uses of {{etyl}}, almost all of which are now in verbs. Benwing2 (talk) 03:38, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
@Benwing2: I hadn't been enabling "community" in Welsh place names as "community" is usually interpreted as a village, but I have "enabled" it in Resolven after the civil parish fashion, should you decide to create a category for communities. If it's created I will have to go back and amend some entries. DonnanZ (talk) 22:59, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I have tried to fix the issues with Swansea/Newport and Welsh communities. The way I set it up, you have to use "Welsh community" or its alias "wcomm" as the place type for Welsh communities rather than just "community". This displays as "a community of", with the preposition "of" and a link to the appropriate Welsh-specific page, and categorizes into e.g. CAT:en:Communities of Wales. I added "Welsh community" to Barry as an example. Benwing2 (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Some of the changes I made to support CAT:en:Communities of Wales interfere with non-Welsh communities, so I reverted them. The only practical effect of this reversion is that Category:en:Communities of Wales now displays an error message instead of what it should. The place type "Welsh community" or "wcomm" still works and correctly categorizes into Category:en:Communities of Wales; I'll look into what needs to be done to make the text of this category display correctly over the next few days. In the mean time, feel free to use place type "Welsh community"/"wcomm" for any of the Welsh communities. Benwing2 (talk) 04:27, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@Benwing2: It's looking good. Apart from the error message you're working on, the only gripe I have is, when working back from the category, you land at the top of the page instead of on the entry itself. As I discovered a Welsh entry (Welsh Llansamlet), and there may be more, it is probably necessary to fix this. Anyway, I have added some entries to the category successfully using both "wcomm" and "Welsh community". It looks as though Category:en:Places in Swansea and Category:en:Places in Newport have been activated, but await creation. Many thanks for all the work you have done.
Regarding the German etyl cleanup, I think I have eliminated most of the more obscure ones you may not pick up, one was actually a mislabelled miscoded Yiddish entry. DonnanZ (talk) 15:24, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Can you explain what you mean by "working back from the category"? Benwing2 (talk) 05:50, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
I think he's referring to the links in Category:en:Communities of Wales. The problem is that {{catfix}}, which adds the language-section links, is normally added by the module and the module stops with the module error before it gets that far. A workaround (which I've now implemented in that category) would be to temporarily add {{catfix|en}} to the category page (or with the language code of whatever other language the category is for). It does no harm to have it provided both by the module and by the standalone template once the module is fixed, but it's also easily removed when it becomes redundant. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
@Benwing2, Chuck Entz: Yes, that's what I meant. I should have said "when clicking on links in the category". Thanks for the (temporary) fix. DonnanZ (talk) 10:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
  • @Benwing2: It would be a nice touch if "community" is added to the wording when |wcomm/ is used, as in the entry for Hengoed for Gelligaer and Gladestry communities. Some rural communities can be quite large, as illustrated by this map of Gladestry community, much larger than the place the community is named after. DonnanZ (talk) 10:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hey sorry to bother you again, but I still notice you mechanically converting {{etyl}} to {{der}}. This is definitely wrong, and could be done by bot if it were correct. Please leave them alone if you're not willing to figure out whether to use {{bor}} or {{inh}}. User:Mahagaja is trying hard to correctly clean up {{etyl}}, and mechanical conversion like this interferes with this process. Benwing2 (talk) 01:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
@Benwing2: I'm looking at Category:etyl cleanup no target/language at present, which shouldn't arouse any controversy.
Just a question about lagoons, should they be redirected to lakes? Creating Ellesmere, I included Lake Ellesmere, which is actually a lagoon. DonnanZ (talk) 15:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Probably not. Lakes are normally freshwater, inland bodies of water and lagoons are normally salt water that's just barely separate from the ocean itself. Of course, there are freshwater lagoons and coastal lakes, so the two overlap- but they're mostly not the same thing. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz, Benwing2: OK, no category for now. We will have to consider whether a category for lagoons is worthwhile (none at present), there's no category for estuaries either. Estuaries are similar to lagoons in some respects, but still quite different from them. DonnanZ (talk) 14:00, 24 February 2021 (UTC)


Hi place guy, can you make Lac-St-Jean, please? Indian subcontinent (talk) 19:22, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Indian subcontinent: Is it an entry for the lake (Lac Saint-Jean) that you want? DonnanZ (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

In case you're wondering...Edit

Some random individual signed his name on your user page and left a meaningless sentence that I hid because it included apparently real names of private individuals. And I do mean random: a rather poor signal-to-noise ratio on the processor connections, if you catch my drift... Chuck Entz (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: It was the same inane user, Bubbabray33, who sent me an email saying "Remove me from group". Thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 08:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Place guyEdit

Hi, place-guy. Could you make an entry for Briançon? Queenofnortheast (talk) 13:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  Done, see English Briançon. DonnanZ (talk) 12:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)