Talk:тӏархьун

RFV discussion: December 2018–January 2019

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тIархьун

Which of these Lezgi spellings are actually attested, and which are made up? @Vahagn Petrosyan, Atitarev —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I have moved it to тӏархьун (ṭarxun). Lezgi is poorly documented, so they shouldn't follow the same verification rules. The lower case palochka ӏ is rarely used in print. The form тӏархьун (ṭarxun) with the upper case Latin "I" instead of the palochka can be found in "Русско-лезгинский словарь" (Russian-Lezgi dictionary) here. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I can attest the modern Cyrillic and the older Cyrillic spellings, but I do not have resources on the other periods of Lezgi. --Vahag (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. Anatoli, I agree that we can use a different character for the palochka and still consider that attested, but I don't think we should keep an Arabic-script entry if it isn't in a dictionary somewhere or otherwise attested. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:12, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

I believe that тӏархьун (ṭarxun) is incorrect, and it should be moved back to тӏархьун (ṭarxun). The "lowercase palochka" was invented by Unicode, because they didn't like the idea of having an "uppercase" character with no corresponding lowercase. Really the "uppercase" palochka is caseless, and the "lowercase" is not actually used in the orthography of any language. --Lvovmauro (talk) 00:28, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

@Lvovmauro: So, you're suggesting moving back to тӏархьун (ṭarxun) with the Latin letter I ("i") because you don't like the use of the lower case palochka? It doesn't even transliterate correctly because it's the wrong alphabet. The upper case palochka is Ӏ. You must mean moving to тӏархьун (ṭarxun). --02:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

ϕ ... ɸ ... φ ... Φ ... ϕ ... ᵠ ... ᵩ ... ᶲ ... Ⲫ ... ⲫ ... ⱷ ... oops! I mean fie on all these confusing Unicode variants! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I thought I checked that, but yes, I meant тӏархьун (ṭarxun). --Lvovmauro (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

It has been generally agreed on, in my observation, to use the standard spellings - i.e. using lower and upper case palochkas based on capitalisation rules, even if that's not widely used and spellings can't be verified using these glyphs. E.g. if a Chechen sentence starts with ӏаса (ˀasa, “stick”) (lower case ӏ), then it should spell with a capital palochka: ӏаса (ˀasa, “stick”) (upper case Ӏ). It applies not only to the lower case but to the upper case palochka (formerly generic and the only oen available). The problem with the languages using palochka is that it's hard to verify anything. They don't have very high level of digitisation and Internet penetration. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:35, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Lezgi is not Chechen, so they may have different orthographic rules. Can a Lezgi word even start with Ӏ?  --Lambiam 09:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Sorry to take a long time to get back. The distinction between capital and lower case various uses. It doesn't matter if words don't start with some letters in some languages. E.g. Russian words never start with "Ь" or "Ъ" but these capital letters exist and have their usage. Try copying ӏаса (lower case palochka) and Ӏаса (upper case palochka) into a Word document, select a large font and select a serif font, e.g. Times New Roman, you will see that letters even look different. I insist we should normalise the spellings. Languages using palochka can now be seen mostly in wikiprojects, anyway, especially Wikipedia and we should show them the right way. We can have a vote on this. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I do not believe we (the English Wiktionary) have a mission to show the Lezgin Wikipedia the right way. I do not think we are qualified to determine what is the right way for Lezgi.  --Lambiam 13:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I may add that the Lezgi Gazet uses the word чӀал in their masthead, spelled with a long palochka. Apparently they haven’t seen the light either yet. I see a long road of missionary labour ahead for you!  --Lambiam 14:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Chuvash and Ossetian people substitute their Cyrillic letters with Roman lookalikes and North Caucasians use wrong palochkas or Roman letters. The entire Chuvash Wikipedia uses Roman "ă" and "ĕ" instead of their correct Cyrillic forms. There are many reasons for that (lack of proper computer support, lack of knowledge or education, habits, etc.). It's a common problem with some minority languages, even bigger than we have at hand but dictionaries shouldn't necessary use incorrect spellings. We can use redirects from other spellings to standard spellings. No need for your sarcasm, BTW. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 14:33, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

What source or authority says that using lower case palochka is part of the standard spelling? --Lvovmauro (talk) 07:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

The Unicode has created and it's used. I can see that lower case palochka is actually used кицӏ (kic̣, “dog”) has an article in Lezgi Wikipedia. There are many hits but not very consistent and Roman substitutes and upper case palochka still very common. We had numerous discussions on the topic and it's a general agreement with some weak opposition every now and again. One of the latest discussion with a some decisions made was Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2018/December#Any_use_for_a_"rare_character"_index?. Just search for "palochka" in the "Wiktionary" name space. Perhaps the glyph usage should be outside the RFV discussions. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:57, 3 January 2019 (UTC)