Vahagn Petrosyan

Your favourite Wiktionarians

Who are your favourite Wiktionarians? I mean the ones whose work you admire the most (in quality, quantity, etc.). PUC – 16:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I won't name names, but these are the people working on languages of Oikumene (Western Asia, Europe, North Africa), preferably from the historical perspective. I especially appreciate colleagues with common sense, good faith and sense of humor. Vahag (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Your favourite scholars

Who's your favourite Western Armenian scholar (meaning scholar who studies Armenian and comes from the West, not scholar who studies Western Armenian)? Hübschmann?

And who are the scholars whom you most admire in general? PUC – 10:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It's Hübschmann. Honestly, not much progress has been made since his {{R:xcl:AG}}. Something happened after World War I: people are getting dumber and smaller everywhere. A footnote by a Hübschmann, Brockelmann or Nöldeke contains more scholarship than a whole book by a modern.

The scholar I admire most is of course Acharyan. His high-quality and vast output is equivalent to a century's work of several universities combined. I don't know how it is humanly possible to do what he did. No race has an etymological dictionary comparable to {{R:xcl:HAB}}. Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

ձի

I wanted to let the readers know, that the references are real. Could they go under the header "Further reading" instead? -- Apisite (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean "the references are real"? Vahag (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The reference templates look more fitting for the header "Further reading" than the "References" one in the context of the entry; if any reader were to enter any of the links, then he (or she) may figure out where the word is on the page. --Apisite (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't want you to add references to Armenian entries which you have not personally read and understood. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to say, that I saw the links in the three references. --Apisite (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Armeno-Turkish

Thanks for contributing by adding Armeno-Turkish spellings and even quotes, sources about it are almost nonexistent online. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I do it to reveal forms which are not attested by the defective Arabic script. It is often these forms that explain the shape of the borrowings in other languages. Vahag (talk) 08:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply, but could you give me some examples? Rodrigo5260 (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I have given some examples at Wiktionary_talk:About_Ottoman_Turkish#Other_scripts, երնջնակ (ernǰnak) and Talk:արտալայ. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you 👍. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Tsolak

Hi Vahagn. Unfortunately there is no way to distinguish between the Armenian name and the Turkish surname in Greek script. Τhe transcription to Greek is the same word, "Τσολάκ" (I was about to create the Greek Wikt article, pointing the two different etymologies.) So, in Greek, Ցոլակյան (Tsolakian, Цолакян) and Չոլաքյան (Cholakian, Чолакян) is the same word, "Τσολακιάν". So, please, revert your revertion to my edit. Regards, —— Chalk19 (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Chalk19: we don't allow theoretical transliterations. A name must be attested. Do you have attestations for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) referring to an Armenian person Ցոլակ (Cʻolak)? My search finds only people with nine-eleveny names like Μουσταφά, Εμρέ, Ορχάν who can't be Armenian. Note that Ցոլակ (Cʻolak) is not a very popular name in Armenian to begin with, and that among Greece and Cyprus Armenians it would mostly be pronounced as /t͡sʰɔˈlɑɡ/ = Τσολάγκ, not Τσολάκ. Vahag (talk) 07:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Tsolakian / Цолакян and Cholakian / Чолакян are "attested" forms. Both in Greek are transl. as "Τσολακιάν" (Tsolakian). It's not a matter of pronounciation (even in this case there is not way in Greek script to note the difference between Ts-Ц and Ch-Ч) but of transliteration. Like with Russian names and surnames, for example. —— Chalk19 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

You don't understand. See WT:CFI and give me three cites in Greek for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) and Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián) where it refers to Armenian persons named Ցոլակ (Cʻolak) and Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan). Vahag (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

"Τσoλακιάν" is a Greek surname (an example from armenianportal.gr [1], ref. to Παύλος Τσολακιάν as president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece) from Armenians who found refuge in Grecce after fleeing the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, because of the Genocide and the persecusion by the Turks. There is no way to know, or tell who of those "Τσολακιάν"s were Tsolakian / Цолакян or Cholakian / Чолакян. BUT even this were possible, there is NO WAY to transliterate these names to Greek, to the Greek alphabet, showing the diff. bt. Ts/Ц and Ch/Ч. —— Chalk19 (talk) 09:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

PS. So, we have Παύλος Τσολακιάν (= Pavlos Tsolakian); and Τσολακιάν is Τσολάκ (Tsolak) + the suffix -ιάν (-ian) (-յան). ——Chalk19

There is a way to know that. We know from Armenian-script sources that the president's name is Պօղոս Չոլաքեան (Pōġos Čʻolakʻean). We also know that Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan) is an Eastern Armenian surname, so unlikely to be found in Greece which is populated by Western Armenians, among whom Չոլաքյան (Čʻolakʻyan) is very common. Therefore, you can create Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián), but you should not mention it in unrelated Ցոլակ (Cʻolak), Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan). --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind. Btw, since we had the above talk, let me take advantage of knowledge in Armenian. Can you please tell me if the Armenian male given names Avet, Avetik, Avetis, and Avedis are related to each other? And if so, do their meaning is similar to the Greek name Ευάγγελος (der. from ευαγγέλιο = gospel), the one that brings good news? Thanks in advance. —— Chalk19 (talk) 12:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

See Ավետիս (Avetis), Ավետիք (Avetikʻ), Ավետ (Avet). Means "good news". Vahag (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Help needed

Hi Vahag ! I wonder if you can help me with the following matter that troubles me. In Greek, besides the Armenian-Greek name "Σιμονιάν" (Սիմոնյան) there is also the similar (?) "Σιμονακιάν" (Simonakyan), for which I cannot find any info, neither on Tigran Avetisyan's book (not listed there), nor on the internet. Have you any suggestions ? Might be "Simonak" another form or a dimunitive of Սիմոն ? I see on the net that there is a surmane "Simonak", but it's just a "simplified" form in latin script for the Slovakian "Šimoňák" -no relation to anything Armenian. Thanks in andvance for your time and trouble. Regards. Chalk19 (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @Chalk19. Neither a surname *Սիմոնակյան (*Simonakyan) nor a diminutive given name *Սիմոնակ (*Simonak) exist in Armenian. It looks like someone artificially Armenized Greek Σιμωνάκης (Simonákis) or Σιμονάκης (Simonákis), which are formed with -άκης (-ákis). Vahag (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the suggestion. It's possible, I will search it further in that direction. If so, then it is a "reborrowed" surname, following the pattern: original Greek family name > "armenised" Greek > "back" as a Greek version of the "armenised". In Greek we have no few cases of "reborrowed" surnames from Russian, from Greeks who moved from the Ottoman Empire to the Russian Empire (for the most part during the 19th cent. as merchants, esp. in places like Odessa, Crimea and Saint Petersburg), had their names "russianised", and when they came back to Greece (most of them after the October Revolution) they had their Russian family names transcribed in Greek. Thanks again ! Chalk19 (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Surnames are difficult. Some go through several languages, being adapted and reshaped along the way. Look at Hewsen, a nice Westoid surname at first sight, but in reality an Anglicization of Հյուսնյան (Hyusnyan). Vahag (talk) 11:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I know, it can be tricky sometimes. It is true with placenames, too; "re-borrowing" was a common practice in multi-national states as the Ottoman and the Russian Empires were. Chalk19 (talk) 12:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Аладжов

Hello Vahag ! I came across this Bulgarian family name while dealing with the Russian-Armenian surname Аладжян at el/Wikt. Is it possibly of Armenian origin, a "Bulgarianised" form of the Armenian Հալաջյան or Ալաջյան ? Chalk19 (talk) 15:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It is a Bulgarian surname from an appellative of Turkish origin. The same appellative underlies the Armenian surnames you mentioned. There are many common Ottoman Turkish borrowings in Bulgarian and Armenian.

The best way to find out if a surname is Armenian is searching it on Google Images. You should find beautiful big-nosed creatures with intelligent eyes. Look at these mugs, they are obviously not Armenian. Vahag (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 ! Chalk19 (talk) 19:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Հայրապետյան

Hello Vahag ! Does the form Խայրապետյա actually exist in Armenian as a variant, or it's a transliteration to Armenian from a Latin transliteration (like "Khayraretyan") of the Armenian "Հայրապետյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course not. Those are inorganic search results from automatically generated websites, machine-translated from Russian. You can use www.anun.am to find real Armenian surnames. It is based on the voters register of Armenia. Vahag (talk) 10:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Европа, Kumyk

Thanks for adding the exact pages of the definition in References, as I do not have access to the physical copy of the dictionary. Could you do the same with «европеец» and европалы? Thanks in advance. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 23:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but know that you can find the scanned pdfs of these dictionaries in shadow libraries yourself. Vahag (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

North Kurdish (deletion of silav)

Hello there. I am adding it to another page called سڵاو, which has other dialects of the Kurdish language, this word is co-rooted with them. Why are you deleting without reading the reason! Amiersoi (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I left a message on your talk page. Vahag (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Byzantine Greek as Ancient Greek

Sorry about that edit. I guess it's always a bit tricky sorting Byzantine Greek into either ancient or modern, or its own separate category, especially since it spanned such a long time, and was rather different phonetically in the end period than the beginning a millennium earlier. For example the way β and ύ are pronounced in words coming from Latin can be a bit problematic. But I'm not here to contest the official Wiktionary policy on it. I guess they are all going to be part of the "Ancient Greek" language, along with Koine. Thanks. Word dewd544 (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not your fault No one knows how to handle Middle periods of languages properly. Vahag (talk) 18:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Altiparmak

Hi again. Is it possible this surname, besides deriving from the Turkish "Altıparmak" that is also a shortened form of the (Turkish-)Armenian "Altiparmakian" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chalk19: that is theoretically possible. In the diaspora, -yan is often dropped to blend in and for euphony. Vaghinak Aznavuryan may become Charles Aznavour, Andranik Sargysan may become Andy Serkis. In Turkey -yan is dropped, not to be identified as an Armenian and be beheaded. You have to check the history of each person. To distinguish a Turk Altıparmak from a shortened Armenian Altiparmakian check the first name, the face and especially the profession. Vahag (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Btw, is the trad. orthography spelling of Aliparmakyan Ալթըփարմաքեան ? Does the "reformed" version Ալթիպարմակյան listed by Avetisian (p. 8a) really exist ? And what about Ալտիբարմակյան ? Is that one related to the Russian Алтыбармакян ? Chalk19 (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I have collected all the real forms at Ալթըփարմաքյան (Altʻəpʻarmakʻyan). *Ալթիպարմակյան and *Ալտիբարմակյան are ghost forms, created by retranscribing foreign spellings into Armenian. Vahag (talk) 13:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Nice work, Vahag ! If you don't mind take a look of my editing @ el:Αλτιπαρμακιάν and el:Αλτιπαρμάκ. Τhe latter was found to both Muslim (people of Turkish origin) and Christians living in Greece, so there are two etymology sections in the article. Can "Αλτιπαρμάκ" be added as der. of the Greek "Αλτιπαρμακιάν" in the Ալթըփարմաքյան article with noting that it may be from Turkish, as well ? Chalk19 (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The first one looks good. The second one: being Christian is not sufficient for assuming Armenian origin. Could be an Anatolian Greek or a Turk who found the light. What are some of the first names of Christian Altiparmaks? Vahag (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Α Turk who found the light ! Ha, ha, very good, indeed ! Well, the Christian names I have seen are Tatiana (Russian  ?) and Pavlos (Paul). Cannot tell for sure if these people are of Armenian origin, even partly. Many Greek-Armenians of the younger generations have "Greek" names, like Pavlos Tsolakian, who was (probably still is) president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece. That's why in the article is stated Armenian origin as a possibility, not a fact. Chalk19 (talk) 13:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Pavlos Tsolakian is attested in Armenian sources. These people are not. There is no reason to assume Armenian origin for any Greek Αλτιπαρμάκ's. Until there is definite proof, I see no benefit in saying "possibly of Armenian origin". Vahag (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Researching further the subject I found that this was a surname among the Greeks of Constantinople (at least). Chalk19 (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Also among Skopje Slavs Vahag (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, again. One more thing. In USA there is a surname "Vetsmatyan" (Վեցմատյան ?). Is it a "real" Armenian surname, or just a translation to Armenian of "Ալթըփարմաքյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly a translation (a calque) of Ալթըփարմաքյան. Vahag (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Etymology for Western Armenian -կոր

What possible sources could be consulted to understand the etymology, the historical cause for adoption and usage of -կոր in W.Armenian 185.217.185.10 20:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

See կոր (kor) with references and also this article. I haven't evaluated the evidence myself, so all of this is provisional. Vahag (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Armeno-Turkish as a side project?

what would you think of adding armenian-alphabet forms for ottoman turkish lemmata? asking you because you seem to be rather active in the o.t. sphere here. how would this be gone about? presumably a separate-language entry for each letter would need to be added, like ե being /j/ etc., but would these essentially be like վէճհ - alternative spelling of وجه? RagingPichu (talk) 19:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You can look at how I handled the entries in Category:Ottoman Turkish terms in Armenian script. մէրսի (mersi) got a full entry in Armenian script because the Arabic spelling is not attested. Vahag (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Boring words

See for example French chaume, which originated as a wanderword pre-Latin and subsequently lost all the technical meanings (originally “reed or quill for writing”, etc.) that caused it to spread horizontally in the first place. Other cases like Albanian kallam retain some of the technical meanings but have shifted to prioritizing the more mundane ones. Granted, a shared family of substrata is more likely, but frowned upon to suggest. — 69.120.69.23 20:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that French chaume and Albanian kallam are wanderwords. Those are normal borrowings into Latin and Albanian from the neighboring Greek. As for substrate, the Leidenite "Mediterranean-Pontic" substratum is a myth, at least for the Armenian. Vahag (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Persian قارچ

Hi, take a look at Asatrian, G. (2020). Classical New Persian samārō/ūγ ‘mushroom.’ Iran & the Caucasus, 24(4), 419–422. It gives a n etymology for the word قارچ (mushroom) and probably for کپک (mold). What do you think? Kamran.nef (talk) 00:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I have no opinion. Persian etymologies are not my specialty. Vahag (talk) 10:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kamran.nef: It looks specific enough that some of it must be true. Look, you are also a Wiktionary editor now. You could try copying over the code of one of the reference templates Vahagn or I have made to make a reference template from this Garnik Asatrian piece and augment قارچ yourself. Since we don’t have an opinion, there can’t be much wrong content-wise. I’ll tell you next why I am not going to do it myself. Fay Freak (talk) 16:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to both of you. I'll try it then. Kamran.nef (talk) 18:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

j / z

Do you know any (Old) Armenian example with dz/z(before vowels/between vowels) < PIE g'h alteration? ПростаРечь (talk) 23:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰ gives Old Armenian ձ (j), as in ձեռն (jeṙn), ձիւն (jiwn), մերձ (merj). But between vowels it gives Old Armenian զ (z), as in եզն (ezn), ոզնի (ozni). Vahag (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, does (Old) Armenian have such alteration within one lemma / in compounds? ПростаРечь ПростаРечь (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I can't think of any such cases. Vahag (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Partially unknown vs. entirely unknown

Fair enough since you edited the etymology yourself but, if you don't want to follow behind other users 'tidying up' all the time, it's better that you post the specific policy that actually agrees with you instead of your personal feelings about what you'd like to see in particular categories. The template itself doesn't provide any such guidance and there's nothing immediately obvious at WT:..., Wiktionary:..., WT:Etymology, etc. That said, people frequently get an informal consensus going in a discussion somewhere and then forget to post it as a general rule. Just link to it when you find it. — LlywelynII 20:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no policy, there is common sense. Why do we have Category:Ottoman Turkish terms with unknown etymologies? To gather words which the etymologysts of that language could not solve. It is a beckoning mystery, a titillating challenge. I have added the category to my watchlist and try to solve the etymologies myself. Then you add لیزبون (Lizbon) to it. People working on Turkish don't care that Olisipo's pre-Roman etymology happens to be uknown. Vahag (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Etymology of mıcır

Hi Vahag, could I ask for some help with the etymology of mıcır? TDK and Vikisözlük only give that the origin is Armenian, and you were the foremost specialist who'd be able to assist that came to my mind. Thank you in advance, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@A. T. Galenitis: I have added the relevant etymon. Vahag (talk) 17:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated, thank you for this! —A. T. Galenitis (talk) 02:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the misreading of Acharian on մոծիր, mea culpa! If it is of any help for when you have the time to look further into this, the DSMG entry for the related μούντζα gives a transcription of a supposed Persian etymon "muzh" (for which I could not find anything further). —A. T. Galenitis (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for adding μουντζούρα (mountzoúra) to the comparison. Armenology was not aware of it. A Persian origin for a word with the very un-Persian phoneme ծ = [t͡s] is unlikely. I think մոծիր (mocir) is somehow related to Old Armenian մոխիր (moxir). Their barbaric shapes point to Kartvelian languages. I will be able to review the literature in about two months. Vahag (talk) 17:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Ծօլա

Ամոթից չէր, ասի ծօլա էջում կգրեմ փոխառություն ա ։D Revolution Saga (talk) 17:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Դե գրի, թող խեղճ վրացիքի սիրտը մի քիչ հովանա։ Թե չէ ինչ ունեն-չունեն, ասում ենք հայերենից ա փոխառված։ Vahag (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Հա, ճիշտ ես։ Իմիջիայլոց, էն օրը գրաբարի դասախոսս ասում էր ծոն "մարդ աստծո"-ի կրճատումից ա առաջացել :D Revolution Saga (talk) 17:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Հա դե ժողովրդական ստուգաբանությունը նիկտո նե ատմենյալ։ Հրաչը փորձում ա դրա դեմ պայքարել, բայց ես հո գիտեմ որ մարդկանց մեծ մասը հավատալու ա նրան, ինչին հակված ա․ փաստերով չես կարա համոզես։ Vahag (talk) 17:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

partēz and Armenian consonant shift

Hello Vahagn, would the existence of պարտէզ (partēz) in Classical Armenian not imply that the Armenian consonant shift, in which anlaut *t > d, occured within a more recent time frame than that Beekes presupposes? According to him, voicing of stops after resonants (compare Arm. mard < *mr̥tós) were anterior to the lenition of PIE stops (*p, *t, *k > *ɸ, *θ, *χ) that took place during stage 10, also characteristic of this internal shift. In this case, how would you substantiate the chronology of phonological changes in the face of the etymology that is clearly derived from a much earlier stage of Iranian? Do you agree that the dating during which պարտէզ was borrowed into Armenian corresponds impeccably with Beekes' relative chronology where lenition followed consonant voicing. Or would you beg to differ? What do you think? Thank you in advance, Newroderick895 (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe in the existence of Old Iranian or Mitanni Aryan borrowings in Armenian. պարտէզ (partēz) should be from Middle Iranian *pardēz or similar, and its տ (t) should be explained by some process in the Middle Iranian donor or by analogical influence of some other word (perhaps of պարտ (part)?). So I would not look at պարտէզ (partēz) for establishing pre-historic Armenian sound laws. Vahag (talk) 10:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni? 😂 First time I heard about the extent of this topic and found this article, which was locked in 2008 for pointy editing. Per my findings for the city مرند (marand) northeast of Lake Urmia in Middle Iranian times however we had Indo-Aryans. Karabakh is India, so to speak 🇮🇳✊🏼💪🏾. Fay Freak (talk) 14:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Mitanni Aryan is invoked when the correspondence with the usual Middle Iranian loaner (Parthian, Middle Persian) is not quite regular. The other way to cheat is invoking the Eastern Iranian language of the Parni, supposedly brough to Armenia by the Arsacids, the ruling class of the Parthians (e.g. in Շաւասպ (Šawasp)). Vahag (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

خواجه

You had just rollbacked at Special:Diff/78829501 my reversion of a potentially hoax etymology which is also unsourced. This etymology was added at Special:Diff/62922826 in 2021. I had mentioned it well in the edit summary. I have also noticed that the same was challenged at least thrice before, each time being reverted without any discussion on the contestation. Thank you. (Ping on reply) CX Zoom (talk) 21:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: Vahagn didn’t need to write out any reasoning because you aren’t attentive enough to read, anyhow, and push preconceived value judgements. You mentioned nothing, just slandered a referenced derivation a hoax. Just read what’s actually written and then expand upon the why. Fay Freak (talk) 21:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: The source is of course there (Asatrian). Asatrian's etymology was enriched with Middle Indic data by Samapriya Basu, whom I know as a user competent in Indo-Iranian matters. See his tweet about this word. Vahag (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: "possibly" and "not sourced" call for {{rfv-etym}} and (preferably) posting at the Etymology scriptorium, not amputation of possibly valid and useful content. While there are some cases where something is categorically impossible, such as Ancient Egyptian derivation from an American Indian language, or depends on theories that no one in the mainstream academic community takes seriously, such as Altaic- if you don't know it's wrong, challenge it, don't remove it. That way, if you're right it gets marked as questionable and eventually removed, and if you're mistaken you aren't responsible for removing valid information that might not be added back. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you everyone who replied to my concern. I will take care about such matters in the future, and sorry for unilaterally removing the content. (Ping on reply) CX Zoom (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Greek repatriated loanwords

Thank you for your attention to the Greek αντιδάνειο (antidáneio), here at your αντζούγια note. I am marking these with the Greek term, in anticipation and awaiting for a translation of the term and a Category-support from en.wikt. A proposed translation is repatriated loanword, literally 'counter-loan' that is: borrow BACK from a previous phase of grk.
At one time they were marked {der|el|el}, (at the moment, I am cleaning up the red Category:Greek_twice-borrowed_terms). Other times, they were called reborrowings, but this is αναδανεισμός m (anadaneismós, “= borrow AGAIN”) (like the doublets). The so-called at Greek bibliography αντιδάνεια, do not have a description at en.wikt, because they borrow-BACK from a different period of Greek, and not from el|el.
Note: pre-2000, the term was used very loosely in some dictionaries, for combigning forms of classic compounds. For example, the markings αντιδ. of {{R:Babiniotis 2002}}, also his etymologies at {{R:el:Papyros}} are totally revised at his {{R:Babiniotis 2010}}, and applied in the strict sense of αντιδάνειο. They are applied correctly at {{R:DSMG}}. Ref: this PhD +abstract is nice, but in Greek, discusses also they hybridic and the debated ones.
If you can help out, and create a special Cat. for this Greek 'borrow-back' thing, it would be great! Because i have no idea how to describe it and how to ask for it. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I have made a meme to describe what is going on in this and other cases. Please, don't force-feed everything you see in Greek dictionaries to English Wiktionary. Most of the custom features you request already exist on English Wiktionary. If they don't, then they are probably not interesting. Please work with the infrastructure we already have here. Vahag (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Template:desc tag= and <tag:...>

Hi, I notice you've been using the |tag= param in {{desc}} and maybe also the <tag:...> inline modifier in {{syn}} and {{ant}}. Both of these are changing to be |lb= and <lb:...> now that dialect tags have been unified with labels; the values of these parameters are handled just like labels in the {{lb}} template. Note that all the Armenian dialect tags have been moved to the Armenian label data module Module:labels/data/lang/hy and unified with what was there before, so they should all continue working. Benwing2 (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for letting me know. That is a useful development. Vahag (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Armenian left half ring

Hi.

What it looks like in any particular document isn't particularly relevant, since manuscripts and typesetting vary. Unicode defines this as a left half ring. If that's not appropriate, we should probably petition Unicode to correct it. I can do that if you provide the evidence.

This character was adopted in the oldest layers of Unicode, so we're probably not going to be able to find the evidence they used for it, to see if a mistake was made there. It was likely imported from some older encoding system without any additional evidence. If the Unicode character name is bad, we'll need to request an alias, as Unicode names can't be changed. But we can change the representative glyph we see on the Armenian character chart, so that it no longer looks like a ring. Meanwhile, I reverted your changes as they messed up the redirects and would leave our readers even more confused.

kwami (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

When you're reverted, especially with an edit that breaks Wiktionary, you need to discuss the issue, not just edit-war over it. kwami (talk) 06:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? The issue is whether we write Ottoman ayn and hamza in Armeno-Turkish as <ՙ> or <՚>? @RagingPichu picked the first one, I am moving to the second one as the printed sources clearly use the Armenian apostrophe. For example here, Ottoman Turkish ս՚ալէպ (sʼaleb, “fox”) has the same symbol as the Armenian phrase ՚ի պարծ շրջիլ (’i parc šrǰil) which uses the Armenian apostrophy. Vahag (talk) 10:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Then what does that have to do with <ՙ>? What is <ՙ> used for, if not for ayn and hamza?

To be clear, I don't object to you making whatever corrections you need to to the Armenian apostrophe entry. Where I have concerns is claiming that <ՙ> is the same as <՚>. The half ring needs a definition. I don't know what the proper definition is, and we need better sources than Unicode, but even if the character <ՙ> is completely spurious, we should provide that information to our readers. kwami (talk) 10:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what <ՙ> is used for. I invented its usage for dialectal aspiration at Talk:ՙ. It was certainly not created for writing Armeno-Turkish ayn and hamza, because I invented writing Armeno-Turkish on the Internet for the first time in humanity's history only in 2023. Vahag (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You invented a script that was used by Pôzačean (1841) and others?

From this, it looks like it might be the Latin turned apostrophe adopted to Armenian script, but I'm just guessing. If that's the case, perhaps it should be redirected to that character rather than to the Semiticist half ring. kwami (talk) 11:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

There was no Unicode in Bozadjian's time. This is the first time we are writing Armeno-Turkish on a computer, and we need to choose wich Unicode character to use. Vahag (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

And to choose where we provide the statement about this ARMENIAN MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING being a ghost character. Fay Freak (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Not at all in Armenian script, only in transcription. I understand they could have tried to make a distinction from the Semitist half ring in that the Semitist one represents a whole letter while the Armenian has the property of a modifier letter. But this gainsays the situation Character.UnicodeBlock ARMENIAN of U+0559. From what Vahagn shows you about the apostrophe ՚, the encoding of an alleged Armenian half ring ՙ is a mistake, as the shape is generally closer to the former, so even if there are half rings with the same signification in Armenian script somewhere then they would have to be mere font variants. Accordingly, I find bold Do NOT use. You have more experience to find the official documents about it. Fay Freak (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, that clarifies things. I think we should probably redirect it per that document then. kwami (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Vahagn found and referenced on our Wiktionary page the Unicode document admitting its non-use, a conclusion found by me a priori, while I was writing. Technically it should not have an Armenian, nor Ottoman, entry section. The question remains how we categorize the (demonstrated) encoding artifacts, which @-sche might answer. I thought only about analogy to Category:Translingual ghost words, but surely editors of CJK designed something about it. Because as Kwamikagami says, we should provide that information to our readers orderly. Fay Freak (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Since Unicode says it should be replaced with U+02BB, I think that's where we should rd the character to. We can explain it there in a user note. I'll remove the glyph from our Unicode charts so it doesn't display as anything on that page. kwami (talk) 11:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not without reason, but at the same time the intention of the encoding was aligned with that of Armenian apostrophe. Well it’s nonsense on the end and we redirect to one arbitrarily. Fay Freak (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I figured I just open the Wikipedia page on Japanese ghost characters and look up two, 墸 and 挧, and it looks like they are not handled well, being currently in RFV. There would have to be an analogy to {{no entry}}, by which we sometimes link e.g. Appendix:English dictionary-only terms, however not specific to the Armenian language section, as the information could as well be on the Ottoman side: Unicode has encoded characters for scripts and not languages, so the character is language-section-neutral, not being seriously claimed or considered for any language—even Translingual, so I reckon we should put such a template in front of any L2 such as we do with {{also}}, highlighting also a character’s technical garbage character. Fay Freak (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

We also need to replace <ՙ> with <ʻ> in the automated references. It looks like our automatic transliteration needs to be corrected. I'll leave that to someone who is familiar with it. I've moved the articles on the aspirated dialect consonants, and hopefully fixed Template:Armn-script.

At first I thought that a ghost-character article wasn't the best the to go, and that we should direct the reader to the character that they should be using instead. But maybe a ghost article would be clearer, as you say. It's not a big deal either way, as long as we make the correction available, but we should probably try to be consistent across WK on how we handle things like this. kwami (talk) 11:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: why did you move բՙ (bʻ) and the other aspirated dialectal letters? The latest version of Unicode does not say U+0559 is deprecated. It says it is not used, and that in Armenian transliteration U+02BB should be used instead of U+0559. We are not using U+0559 for Armenian transliteration. We are using it for dialectological notation, a usage unknown to Unicode. Vahag (talk) 12:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Huh? See the paragraphs above. Including your own claims, such as "I don't know what <ՙ> is used for. I invented its usage for dialectal aspiration at Talk:ՙ."

If you invented it, then we shouldn't claim that it's Armenian usage. Also, there are sources provided in the links above that the turned apostrophe is used for that function. kwami (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

BTW, in Unicode parlance, the word "deprecated" is used on the code charts to mean that there's something wrong with the character itself, e.g. that they have architectural or implementation problems. kwami (talk) 20:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I still don't see a problem in adopting an orphan symbol for something we need. It's not like Unicode recommends U+02BB for indicating aspiration in the dialects. Unicode is simply unaware of the Armenian dialectal aspirated letters. Vahag (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I don't understand the need. If we're using printed sources for these forms, why not use their orthography? kwami (talk) 15:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Because I don't like script-mixing. All Armenian letters and almost all Armenian punctuation are unique. But I guess if we can use goyish symbols on ա̈ (ä) and ա̊ (å), we can also use one on բʻ (bʻ). Let me get accustomed to the idea of using symbols from non-Armenian Unicode blocks. Vahag (talk) 16:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay. kwami (talk) 22:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Replying to where I was pinged about the general question of how to handle Unicode characters that aren't used for anything, and not commenting on these specific Armenian characters: here's a mockup of a "ghost character" template and here's a mockup of including it into the existing "no entry" template, but it seems like if a character is in Unicode but isn't used for anything at all, we would usually just delete it...? (If it's used for something but not what Unicode included it for, maybe Usage notes is the place to mention that, or maybe that too is just not includable?) Ghost kanji seem unusual in that they provide a lot of information, even readings (which are pulled from who knows where) - -sche (discuss) 21:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem as I see it is that these are in the Unicode charts, and if deleted would become red links in our lists at e.g. Appendix:Unicode/Armenian, so it's likely that people will repeatedly create them if we don't provide any info, even if they have no info themselves -- just as people repeatedly create pages on emojis without providing any content. If nothing else, people will come here to find what they're used for (that's something I commonly do), and will be left with no answers if we don't cover them.

A dedicated page with a ghost-character template (and also the Unicode character box IMO) might be the best way to go, as far as clarity to the reader. IMO we should also include info on substitute characters in cases like these. The deprecated CJK angle brackets are another case where we might want separate pages with the ghost template, rather than redirecting them to the pages for the functional angle brackets and covering them with a usage note. If you want to use angle brackets, and they all look the same in your font, that info is very handy to have available on WK because it's so easy to search by specific code point here. kwami (talk) 21:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)