User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan
Your favourite Wiktionarians edit
Who are your favourite Wiktionarians? I mean the ones whose work you admire the most (in quality, quantity, etc.). PUC – 16:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- I won't name names, but these are the people working on languages of Oikumene (Western Asia, Europe, North Africa), preferably from the historical perspective. I especially appreciate colleagues with common sense, good faith and sense of humor. Vahag (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Your favourite scholars edit
Who's your favourite Western Armenian scholar (meaning scholar who studies Armenian and comes from the West, not scholar who studies Western Armenian)? Hübschmann?
And who are the scholars whom you most admire in general? PUC – 10:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- It's Hübschmann. Honestly, not much progress has been made since his
{{R:xcl:AG}}
. Something happened after World War I: people are getting dumber and smaller everywhere. A footnote by a Hübschmann, Brockelmann or Nöldeke contains more scholarship than a whole book by a modern. - The scholar I admire most is of course Acharyan. His high-quality and vast output is equivalent to a century's work of several universities combined. I don't know how it is humanly possible to do what he did. No race has an etymological dictionary comparable to
{{R:xcl:HAB}}
. Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
ձի edit
I wanted to let the readers know, that the references are real. Could they go under the header "Further reading" instead? -- Apisite (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- What do you mean "the references are real"? Vahag (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- The reference templates look more fitting for the header "Further reading" than the "References" one in the context of the entry; if any reader were to enter any of the links, then he (or she) may figure out where the word is on the page. --Apisite (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't want you to add references to Armenian entries which you have not personally read and understood. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I forgot to say, that I saw the links in the three references. --Apisite (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Armeno-Turkish edit
Thanks for contributing by adding Armeno-Turkish spellings and even quotes, sources about it are almost nonexistent online. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- I do it to reveal forms which are not attested by the defective Arabic script. It is often these forms that explain the shape of the borrowings in other languages. Vahag (talk) 08:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delayed reply, but could you give me some examples? Rodrigo5260 (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I have given some examples at Wiktionary_talk:About_Ottoman_Turkish#Other_scripts, երնջնակ (ernǰnak) and Talk:արտալայ. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you 👍. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I have given some examples at Wiktionary_talk:About_Ottoman_Turkish#Other_scripts, երնջնակ (ernǰnak) and Talk:արտալայ. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delayed reply, but could you give me some examples? Rodrigo5260 (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn. Unfortunately there is no way to distinguish between the Armenian name and the Turkish surname in Greek script. Τhe transcription to Greek is the same word, "Τσολάκ" (I was about to create the Greek Wikt article, pointing the two different etymologies.) So, in Greek, Ցոլակյան (Tsolakian, Цолакян) and Չոլաքյան (Cholakian, Чолакян) is the same word, "Τσολακιάν". So, please, revert your revertion to my edit. Regards, —— Chalk19 (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Chalk19: we don't allow theoretical transliterations. A name must be attested. Do you have attestations for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) referring to an Armenian person Ցոլակ (Cʿolak)? My search finds only people with nine-eleveny names like Μουσταφά, Εμρέ, Ορχάν who can't be Armenian. Note that Ցոլակ (Cʿolak) is not a very popular name in Armenian to begin with, and that among Greece and Cyprus Armenians it would mostly be pronounced as /t͡sʰɔˈlɑɡ/ = Τσολάγκ, not Τσολάκ. Vahag (talk) 07:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Tsolakian / Цолакян and Cholakian / Чолакян are "attested" forms. Both in Greek are transl. as "Τσολακιάν" (Tsolakian). It's not a matter of pronounciation (even in this case there is not way in Greek script to note the difference between Ts-Ц and Ch-Ч) but of transliteration. Like with Russian names and surnames, for example. —— Chalk19 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- You don't understand. See WT:CFI and give me three cites in Greek for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) and Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián) where it refers to Armenian persons named Ցոլակ (Cʿolak) and Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan). Vahag (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Τσoλακιάν" is a Greek surname (an example from armenianportal.gr [1], ref. to Παύλος Τσολακιάν as president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece) from Armenians who found refuge in Grecce after fleeing the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, because of the Genocide and the persecusion by the Turks. There is no way to know, or tell who of those "Τσολακιάν"s were Tsolakian / Цолакян or Cholakian / Чолакян. BUT even this were possible, there is NO WAY to transliterate these names to Greek, to the Greek alphabet, showing the diff. bt. Ts/Ц and Ch/Ч. —— Chalk19 (talk) 09:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- PS. So, we have Παύλος Τσολακιάν (= Pavlos Tsolakian); and Τσολακιάν is Τσολάκ (Tsolak) + the suffix -ιάν (-ian) (-յան). ——Chalk19
- There is a way to know that. We know from Armenian-script sources that the president's name is Պօղոս Չոլաքեան (Pōġos Čʿolakʿean). We also know that Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan) is an Eastern Armenian surname, so unlikely to be found in Greece which is populated by Western Armenians, among whom Չոլաքյան (Čʿolakʿyan) is very common. Therefore, you can create Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián), but you should not mention it in unrelated Ցոլակ (Cʿolak), Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan). --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Nevermind. Btw, since we had the above talk, let me take advantage of knowledge in Armenian. Can you please tell me if the Armenian male given names Avet, Avetik, Avetis, and Avedis are related to each other? And if so, do their meaning is similar to the Greek name Ευάγγελος (der. from ευαγγέλιο = gospel), the one that brings good news? Thanks in advance. —— Chalk19 (talk) 12:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- There is a way to know that. We know from Armenian-script sources that the president's name is Պօղոս Չոլաքեան (Pōġos Čʿolakʿean). We also know that Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan) is an Eastern Armenian surname, so unlikely to be found in Greece which is populated by Western Armenians, among whom Չոլաքյան (Čʿolakʿyan) is very common. Therefore, you can create Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián), but you should not mention it in unrelated Ցոլակ (Cʿolak), Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan). --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- You don't understand. See WT:CFI and give me three cites in Greek for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) and Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián) where it refers to Armenian persons named Ցոլակ (Cʿolak) and Ցոլակյան (Cʿolakyan). Vahag (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Tsolakian / Цолакян and Cholakian / Чолакян are "attested" forms. Both in Greek are transl. as "Τσολακιάν" (Tsolakian). It's not a matter of pronounciation (even in this case there is not way in Greek script to note the difference between Ts-Ц and Ch-Ч) but of transliteration. Like with Russian names and surnames, for example. —— Chalk19 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Help needed edit
Hi Vahag ! I wonder if you can help me with the following matter that troubles me. In Greek, besides the Armenian-Greek name "Σιμονιάν" (Սիմոնյան) there is also the similar (?) "Σιμονακιάν" (Simonakyan), for which I cannot find any info, neither on Tigran Avetisyan's book (not listed there), nor on the internet. Have you any suggestions ? Might be "Simonak" another form or a dimunitive of Սիմոն ? I see on the net that there is a surmane "Simonak", but it's just a "simplified" form in latin script for the Slovakian "Šimoňák" -no relation to anything Armenian. Thanks in andvance for your time and trouble. Regards. Chalk19 (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, @Chalk19. Neither a surname *Սիմոնակյան (*Simonakyan) nor a diminutive given name *Սիմոնակ (*Simonak) exist in Armenian. It looks like someone artificially Armenized Greek Σιμωνάκης (Simonákis) or Σιμονάκης (Simonákis), which are formed with -άκης (-ákis). Vahag (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for the suggestion. It's possible, I will search it further in that direction. If so, then it is a "reborrowed" surname, following the pattern: original Greek family name > "armenised" Greek > "back" as a Greek version of the "armenised". In Greek we have no few cases of "reborrowed" surnames from Russian, from Greeks who moved from the Ottoman Empire to the Russian Empire (for the most part during the 19th cent. as merchants, esp. in places like Odessa, Crimea and Saint Petersburg), had their names "russianised", and when they came back to Greece (most of them after the October Revolution) they had their Russian family names transcribed in Greek. Thanks again ! Chalk19 (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Surnames are difficult. Some go through several languages, being adapted and reshaped along the way. Look at Hewsen, a nice Westoid surname at first sight, but in reality an Anglicization of Հյուսնյան (Hyusnyan). Vahag (talk) 11:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I know, it can be tricky sometimes. It is true with placenames, too; "re-borrowing" was a common practice in multi-national states as the Ottoman and the Russian Empires were. Chalk19 (talk) 12:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Surnames are difficult. Some go through several languages, being adapted and reshaped along the way. Look at Hewsen, a nice Westoid surname at first sight, but in reality an Anglicization of Հյուսնյան (Hyusnyan). Vahag (talk) 11:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for the suggestion. It's possible, I will search it further in that direction. If so, then it is a "reborrowed" surname, following the pattern: original Greek family name > "armenised" Greek > "back" as a Greek version of the "armenised". In Greek we have no few cases of "reborrowed" surnames from Russian, from Greeks who moved from the Ottoman Empire to the Russian Empire (for the most part during the 19th cent. as merchants, esp. in places like Odessa, Crimea and Saint Petersburg), had their names "russianised", and when they came back to Greece (most of them after the October Revolution) they had their Russian family names transcribed in Greek. Thanks again ! Chalk19 (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Hello Vahag ! I came across this Bulgarian family name while dealing with the Russian-Armenian surname Аладжян at el/Wikt. Is it possibly of Armenian origin, a "Bulgarianised" form of the Armenian Հալաջյան or Ալաջյան ? Chalk19 (talk) 15:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is a Bulgarian surname from an appellative of Turkish origin. The same appellative underlies the Armenian surnames you mentioned. There are many common Ottoman Turkish borrowings in Bulgarian and Armenian.
- The best way to find out if a surname is Armenian is searching it on Google Images. You should find beautiful big-nosed creatures with intelligent eyes. Look at these mugs, they are obviously not Armenian. Vahag (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello Vahag ! Does the form Խայրապետյա actually exist in Armenian as a variant, or it's a transliteration to Armenian from a Latin transliteration (like "Khayraretyan") of the Armenian "Հայրապետյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Of course not. Those are inorganic search results from automatically generated websites, machine-translated from Russian. You can use www.anun.am to find real Armenian surnames. It is based on the voters register of Armenia. Vahag (talk) 10:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the exact pages of the definition in References, as I do not have access to the physical copy of the dictionary. Could you do the same with «европеец» and европалы? Thanks in advance. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 23:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, but know that you can find the scanned pdfs of these dictionaries in shadow libraries yourself. Vahag (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
North Kurdish (deletion of silav) edit
Hello there. I am adding it to another page called سڵاو, which has other dialects of the Kurdish language, this word is co-rooted with them. Why are you deleting without reading the reason! Amiersoi (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I left a message on your talk page. Vahag (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Byzantine Greek as Ancient Greek edit
Sorry about that edit. I guess it's always a bit tricky sorting Byzantine Greek into either ancient or modern, or its own separate category, especially since it spanned such a long time, and was rather different phonetically in the end period than the beginning a millennium earlier. For example the way β and ύ are pronounced in words coming from Latin can be a bit problematic. But I'm not here to contest the official Wiktionary policy on it. I guess they are all going to be part of the "Ancient Greek" language, along with Koine. Thanks. Word dewd544 (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's not your fault No one knows how to handle Middle periods of languages properly. Vahag (talk) 18:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Altiparmak edit
Hi again. Is it possible this surname, besides deriving from the Turkish "Altıparmak" that is also a shortened form of the (Turkish-)Armenian "Altiparmakian" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Chalk19: that is theoretically possible. In the diaspora, -yan is often dropped to blend in and for euphony. Vaghinak Aznavuryan may become Charles Aznavour, Andranik Sargysan may become Andy Serkis. In Turkey -yan is dropped, not to be identified as an Armenian and be beheaded. You have to check the history of each person. To distinguish a Turk Altıparmak from a shortened Armenian Altiparmakian check the first name, the face and especially the profession. Vahag (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Btw, is the trad. orthography spelling of Aliparmakyan Ալթըփարմաքեան ? Does the "reformed" version Ալթիպարմակյան listed by Avetisian (p. 8a) really exist ? And what about Ալտիբարմակյան ? Is that one related to the Russian Алтыбармакян ? Chalk19 (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have collected all the real forms at Ալթըփարմաքյան (Altʿəpʿarmakʿyan). *Ալթիպարմակյան and *Ալտիբարմակյան are ghost forms, created by retranscribing foreign spellings into Armenian. Vahag (talk) 13:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
- Nice work, Vahag ! If you don't mind take a look of my editing @ el:Αλτιπαρμακιάν and el:Αλτιπαρμάκ. Τhe latter was found to both Muslim (people of Turkish origin) and Christians living in Greece, so there are two etymology sections in the article. Can "Αλτιπαρμάκ" be added as der. of the Greek "Αλτιπαρμακιάν" in the Ալթըփարմաքյան article with noting that it may be from Turkish, as well ? Chalk19 (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first one looks good. The second one: being Christian is not sufficient for assuming Armenian origin. Could be an Anatolian Greek or a Turk who found the light. What are some of the first names of Christian Altiparmaks? Vahag (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Α Turk who found the light ! Ha, ha, very good, indeed ! Well, the Christian names I have seen are Tatiana (Russian ?) and Pavlos (Paul). Cannot tell for sure if these people are of Armenian origin, even partly. Many Greek-Armenians of the younger generations have "Greek" names, like Pavlos Tsolakian, who was (probably still is) president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece. That's why in the article is stated Armenian origin as a possibility, not a fact. Chalk19 (talk) 13:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Pavlos Tsolakian is attested in Armenian sources. These people are not. There is no reason to assume Armenian origin for any Greek Αλτιπαρμάκ's. Until there is definite proof, I see no benefit in saying "possibly of Armenian origin". Vahag (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Researching further the subject I found that this was a surname among the Greeks of Constantinople (at least). Chalk19 (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also among Skopje Slavs Vahag (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, again. One more thing. In USA there is a surname "Vetsmatyan" (Վեցմատյան ?). Is it a "real" Armenian surname, or just a translation to Armenian of "Ալթըփարմաքյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- It is certainly a translation (a calque) of Ալթըփարմաքյան. Vahag (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, again. One more thing. In USA there is a surname "Vetsmatyan" (Վեցմատյան ?). Is it a "real" Armenian surname, or just a translation to Armenian of "Ալթըփարմաքյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also among Skopje Slavs Vahag (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Researching further the subject I found that this was a surname among the Greeks of Constantinople (at least). Chalk19 (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Pavlos Tsolakian is attested in Armenian sources. These people are not. There is no reason to assume Armenian origin for any Greek Αλτιπαρμάκ's. Until there is definite proof, I see no benefit in saying "possibly of Armenian origin". Vahag (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Α Turk who found the light ! Ha, ha, very good, indeed ! Well, the Christian names I have seen are Tatiana (Russian ?) and Pavlos (Paul). Cannot tell for sure if these people are of Armenian origin, even partly. Many Greek-Armenians of the younger generations have "Greek" names, like Pavlos Tsolakian, who was (probably still is) president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece. That's why in the article is stated Armenian origin as a possibility, not a fact. Chalk19 (talk) 13:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first one looks good. The second one: being Christian is not sufficient for assuming Armenian origin. Could be an Anatolian Greek or a Turk who found the light. What are some of the first names of Christian Altiparmaks? Vahag (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Nice work, Vahag ! If you don't mind take a look of my editing @ el:Αλτιπαρμακιάν and el:Αλτιπαρμάκ. Τhe latter was found to both Muslim (people of Turkish origin) and Christians living in Greece, so there are two etymology sections in the article. Can "Αλτιπαρμάκ" be added as der. of the Greek "Αλτιπαρμακιάν" in the Ալթըփարմաքյան article with noting that it may be from Turkish, as well ? Chalk19 (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have collected all the real forms at Ալթըփարմաքյան (Altʿəpʿarmakʿyan). *Ալթիպարմակյան and *Ալտիբարմակյան are ghost forms, created by retranscribing foreign spellings into Armenian. Vahag (talk) 13:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Btw, is the trad. orthography spelling of Aliparmakyan Ալթըփարմաքեան ? Does the "reformed" version Ալթիպարմակյան listed by Avetisian (p. 8a) really exist ? And what about Ալտիբարմակյան ? Is that one related to the Russian Алтыбармакян ? Chalk19 (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Etymology for Western Armenian -կոր edit
What possible sources could be consulted to understand the etymology, the historical cause for adoption and usage of -կոր in W.Armenian 185.217.185.10 20:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
- See կոր (kor) with references and also this article. I haven't evaluated the evidence myself, so all of this is provisional. Vahag (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Armeno-Turkish as a side project? edit
what would you think of adding armenian-alphabet forms for ottoman turkish lemmata? asking you because you seem to be rather active in the o.t. sphere here. how would this be gone about? presumably a separate-language entry for each letter would need to be added, like ե being /j/ etc., but would these essentially be like վէճհ - alternative spelling of وجه? RagingPichu (talk) 19:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
- You can look at how I handled the entries in Category:Ottoman Turkish terms in Armenian script. մէրսի (mersi) got a full entry in Armenian script because the Arabic spelling is not attested. Vahag (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Boring words edit
See for example French chaume, which originated as a wanderword pre-Latin and subsequently lost all the technical meanings (originally “reed or quill for writing”, etc.) that caused it to spread horizontally in the first place. Other cases like Albanian kallam retain some of the technical meanings but have shifted to prioritizing the more mundane ones. Granted, a shared family of substrata is more likely, but frowned upon to suggest. — 69.120.69.23 20:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree that French chaume and Albanian kallam are wanderwords. Those are normal borrowings into Latin and Albanian from the neighboring Greek. As for substrate, the Leidenite "Mediterranean-Pontic" substratum is a myth, at least for the Armenian. Vahag (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
Persian قارچ edit
Hi, take a look at Asatrian, G. (2020). Classical New Persian samārō/ūγ ‘mushroom.’ Iran & the Caucasus, 24(4), 419–422. It gives a n etymology for the word قارچ (mushroom) and probably for کپک (mold). What do you think? Kamran.nef (talk) 00:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hi. I have no opinion. Persian etymologies are not my specialty. Vahag (talk) 10:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Kamran.nef: It looks specific enough that some of it must be true. Look, you are also a Wiktionary editor now. You could try copying over the code of one of the reference templates Vahagn or I have made to make a reference template from this Garnik Asatrian piece and augment قارچ yourself. Since we don’t have an opinion, there can’t be much wrong content-wise. I’ll tell you next why I am not going to do it myself. Fay Freak (talk) 16:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you to both of you. I'll try it then. Kamran.nef (talk) 18:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
j / z edit
Do you know any (Old) Armenian example with dz/z(before vowels/between vowels) < PIE g'h alteration? ПростаРечь (talk) 23:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰ gives Old Armenian ձ (j), as in ձեռն (jeṙn), ձիւն (jiwn), մերձ (merj). But between vowels it gives Old Armenian զ (z), as in եզն (ezn), ոզնի (ozni). Vahag (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, does (Old) Armenian have such alteration within one lemma / in compounds? ПростаРечь ПростаРечь (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I can't think of any such cases. Vahag (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, does (Old) Armenian have such alteration within one lemma / in compounds? ПростаРечь ПростаРечь (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Partially unknown vs. entirely unknown edit
Fair enough since you edited the etymology yourself but, if you don't want to follow behind other users 'tidying up' all the time, it's better that you post the specific policy that actually agrees with you instead of your personal feelings about what you'd like to see in particular categories. The template itself doesn't provide any such guidance and there's nothing immediately obvious at WT:..., Wiktionary:..., WT:Etymology, etc. That said, people frequently get an informal consensus going in a discussion somewhere and then forget to post it as a general rule. Just link to it when you find it. — LlywelynII 20:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- There is no policy, there is common sense. Why do we have Category:Ottoman Turkish terms with unknown etymologies? To gather words which the etymologysts of that language could not solve. It is a beckoning mystery, a titillating challenge. I have added the category to my watchlist and try to solve the etymologies myself. Then you add لیزبون (Lizbon) to it. People working on Turkish don't care that Olisipo's pre-Roman etymology happens to be uknown. Vahag (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)