Talk:porta-

Prefix or not?

@SemperBlotto: Hello. I think seeing this as a prefix is a mistaken analysis, and nobody does that, AFAIK. Those words (compare French porte-documents, Spanish portaminas, English cutthroat, etc.) are compounds; you wouldn't say cutthroat is cut- + throat.

They should be categorised in CAT:Italian verb–noun compounds and added as derived terms at portare. I can do that later if you want. --Per utramque cavernam 11:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Italian Wiktionary says it is a prefix. SemperBlotto (talk) 13:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, to me it's clearly wrong. @IvanScrooge98, we've talked about these words on your talk page. Although we disagree on the exact value of the verbal part, surely we agree that it's not a prefix? And @GianWiki, what's your take on this? --Per utramque cavernam 13:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  @SemperBlotto: I would not trust the Italian Wiktionary that much. Plus, that way all verb-noun compounds should be classified as prefixed words. That’s just wrong. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 14:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  Update: checking on a few dictionaries, I found it, though not listed as “prefix”, just “first part of compounds that…”. I assume it’s there as it is a very common initial half. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 14:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  Yes. That's how it is in my Zingarelli minore. SemperBlotto (talk) 14:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  @Per utramque cavernam: The Treccani vocabulary (which I believe is somewhat authoritative) has an entry for porta-, described as the “first element, derived from the root of portare, of compound words”. I'd say that qualifies as a prefix. -- GianWiki (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  I don’t think that’ll classify it as a prefix. See this entry where prefisso is used. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 16:03, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

RFD discussion: May 2018–August 2023

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

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porta-

Italian. See also Talk:porta-.

Pace the Italian wiktionary, this is not a prefix but a verbal compounding form. Although I find it unnecessary (we could put the list of compounds at portare), I'm ok with keeping the entry itself since it exists in other dictionaries; see Treccani for example.

Note however that Treccani does not describe porta- as a prefix, as opposed to pre-. Saying it's a prefix makes as much sense as saying cutthroat is cut- + throat, or killjoy is kill- + joy, or spitfire is spit- + fire.

Category:Italian words prefixed with porta- needs to be deleted. --Per utramque cavernam 08:26, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I Support deletion, though I’m fine with keeping it different from a prefix, too. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 10:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Delete. HeliosX (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Keep per my comments here and here. @GianWiki, Ultimateria? Imetsia (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd say delete it. — GianWiki (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Weak keep of the entry itself, but I still believe the derived terms should be considered compounds. Ultimateria (talk) 18:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Delete. You can just create any sort of verb-noun compounds in Italian, so I don't see how that is a prefix. "porta-" in portapacchi is as much of a prefix as "-pacchi" is an affix... — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

RFD-deleted. Imetsia (talk (more)) 20:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

This strikes me as one of the wrongest decisions ever reached on this forum. All major Italian dictionaries include this entry and other "prefixoids" like it. But for some reason, we chose to depart from the consensus reached by authoritative Italian lexicographers. Imetsia (talk (more)) 20:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

RFD discussion: January–August 2023

See Talk:acchiappa-#RFD discussion: January–August 2023.