Template talk:el-participle of

Updating this template

@Orgyn, Rossyxan, Sarri.greek — participles where this template is used have the choice of:

• Present participle of …
• Perfect participle of …
• Participle of …

These don't match our new conjugation table terms, I would propose to change these to:

• Active present participle of …
• Active perfect participle of …
• Passive present participle of …
• Passive perfect participle of …
• Participle of …

With perhaps the addition of Holton's

• Active past participle of …
• Passive past participle of …

Please reply with any thoughts. — Saltmarsh. 05:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

O! @Saltmarsh: how nice! (you know how I like editing participles). I like subcategories but how far are you prepared to go? el:Κατηγορία:Μετοχές (ελληνικά) has a subcat el:Κατηγορία:Μετοχές της καθαρεύουσας but they have placed there only the a5.2^{(see below)} ancient forms. Category:Ancient Greek participles do not have any. The total subcats are so many!

--Standard Demotic Greek:

• 1. Active Present -οντας, -ώντας (λύνοντας) indeclinable. (adverbial function). (quasi English gerunds)
• 2. Active Perfect έχοντας + infinitive (έχοντας λύσει) periphrastic. indeclinable. (not in tables, no Cat needed)
• 3. Passive Perfect -μένος-η-ο (λυμένος) (also see a5, below)

--Standard Modern Greek: some of the ancient participles are used in set phrases or used as adj/nouns (via New Testament, via Katharevousa). Declension Rule: if different, use ancient style for Nouns (substantivized participles) and Demotic style when they are used as participles or adjectivally:

• a1 Active Present from ancient -ων-ουσα-ον (παρών, τρέχων) / -ων-ωσα-ων τιμών, / ων-ων-ον ευγνώμων
• a2 Active Past from ancient (-ας-ασα-αν) λήξας
• a3 Passive Present from ancient (-όμενος-ομένη-όμενο(ν), -ούμενος-ουμένη-ούμενο(ν), ...) αγνοούμενος, προηγούμενος
• a4 Passive Past from ancient (-θείς-θείσα-θέν) ανακοινωθείς
• a5 Passive Perfect survives in Modern Greek. Also with ancient:
  • a5.1 AND/OR ancient augment variations (απηρχαιωμένος & demoticαπαρχαιωμένος. κατειλημμένος but not καταλειμμένος)
  • a5.2 AND/OR ancient reduplication: ενδεδειγμένος but not ενδειγμένος. not γεγραμμένος but yes γραμμένος

--irregularities worth mentioning:

• i1. passive participles, with no passive verb: πεθαμένος has no πεθαίνομαι, only πεθαίνω.
• i2. compound participles, where only the second combining form is a participle (and has a verb). πολυβραβευμένος πολυ- + βραβευμένος from βραβεύω, there is no *πολυβραβεύω.
• i3. participles whose verb exists only in Ancient Greek (only the participle was inherited) e.g. παρών from πάρειμι.

It will be your decision! The situation with dictionaries is chaos: they do not name them at all as participles, they say that their DECLENSION is like an adjective (of course it is), that they function as adjectives (of course they do -that is why they are called 'particip'les-) and somewhere in etymology they mention their true identity. Do you agree that we should be consistent at describing them with PoS Participle, and ALSO having them under Category:Greek adjectives? This was your idea and I like it! I would like also for them to be automatically in Category:Greek lemmas, because now, we have to add it manually. PS Holton hates the ancient vocatives in certain Cats, but, yes, they do exist. sarri.greek (talk) 21:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Is everything OK?

@Saltmarsh, is everything ok with the template? It is my usual copy-paste template for participles, but I had this change by User:Mahagaja. Must I change something? Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 14:27, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this template doesn't take the |t= parameter for a gloss. I made the change primarily because on your recommendation I deleted αραχνιάζομαι as nonexistent. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:32, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I just realized! Thank you @Mahagaja I'm a bit slow. --sarri.greek (talk) 14:35, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Parameter t

• @Mahagaja I have now enabled |t= as an alternative for |gloss=.
• @Sarri.greek Looking back at your answer above, I'm sorry I had forgotten about it. I think we should talk about Categorisation somewhere else and concentrate here on what the template should say.

(1) The template needs modifying to allow the optional use of Active or Passive (optional because it must retrofit with current pages using it).

(2) I have provisionally chosen "Perfect passive participle" as the word order, it being the most commonly used according to Google Ngram

(3) We have 3 in our table: "Present active participle", "Present passive participle", "Perfect passive participle".

(4) Is the "Perfect active participle" always periphrastic, and will be ever need to use the template for one?

— Saltmarsh. 05:56, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Thank you for the innovations. _4 it is always periphrastic (έχοντας +infinitive), and it is never going to be lemmatized. _2: You can design as you wish, and I can go through all participles to see that it is ok (they are not too many at the moment) --sarri.greek (talk) 06:02, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

declinable indeclinable

The missing text below was moved to Category talk:Greek participles — Saltmarsh. 11:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)