User talk:Sarri.greek/2024

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Sarri.greek ♫

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2024

New year chores:Cat:Medieval Greek language, adding inflections and ipa at Cat:Greek language ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources pdf

Κύριε @Nikos1nikos1, κύριε Νίκο! M @Mahagaja! (...you know the very nice abbreviations@DGE {{R:DGE}} escpecially for authors.) Well... look what i found!
Perhaps they forgot to withdraw it, so, we have to haste. It has everything. and index too! pdf = please dld fast... (-‿-) I start reading now! the ones we really need for good quotes, for which we spent hours with only result, tiny snippets. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

ἐμπειρία

@Sarri.greek I created the lemma wikt:el:ἐμπειρία at el.wiki and the quotation of Plato, Laws seems not to function properly. I have added quotations of Plato, Laws in the past (ψέξαι, ἄγρα, ἐπιτρέπων) and everything was ok. Could you check if I did something wrong or you should fix the template Q.Nikos1nikos1 (talk) 12:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Sooooorry Mr @Nikos1nikos1, it was stupid typo at the Module, at 4) while copying from w:en:Stephanus_pagination. Thaaank you for spotting those mistakes! By the by... if you have time. Could you fix those monotonic quotations at wikt:el:παλληκαράτα? (and thanks, of course it is neu.plural like the Modern νιάτα, wikt:el:μικράτα). There are links to the Library (to be honest, i haven't studied the Pentateuch at all). Thank you. A... one more thing: ALL loanwords from Turkish pre 1928 are from ota. When we do not know the ota word, we write (as at wikt:el:τομάχι {bor|ota|el|?}} ({l|x|tr|lang=4}) < etc... Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Translit

αυθαίρετο looks good to me. Thanks for understanding my previous comment.   — Saltmarsh^☮ 06:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

ματζέτα and Q|grc|Ar|Pax

@Sarri.greek Could you fix Template Kriaras. Volume 14, page 397 cannot be displayed. Another page (p. 398) is appeared. I realized that the comedy of Aristophanes Pax does not create a link to Βικιθήκη while other comedies do. Could you fix it. (e.g. ὄρρος, κάνθαρος) Nikos1nikos1 (talk) 15:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Kalispera sas kyrie @Nikos1nikos1.

• Pax: ok now, i linked it to wikisource, but it does not have any anchors. What I do is, I enter wikisource and put

  {{anchor|xxx}} at the beginning of the verse that is marked with numbers ending to μηδενικά (0) or πεντάρια. wikt:el:κάνθαρος, wikt:el:ὄρρος

  If you do not like the s: (wikisouce link), you can cancel it with |s=-

  and put greek-language.gr on top with page parameter |p+t= instead of |p=

• wikt:el:Tempalte:Κριαράς Μεσ2. Problem is, that πηδάει one page from 355 to 357 at Addenda. What we do is write the correct link and show what we want.

  {{Π:Κριαράς Μεσ2|14|396|σελ=397|λήμμα=συμπλήρωμα ματζέτα}}

  I should fix all these παραρτήματα one day!! ... a bit difficult. I hope you don't mind to fix it κομπογιανίτικα for the moment

And ουάου Foscolos! wikt:el:ματζέτα. I would suggest for Foscolos and some others, to warn your readers by adding a little note that the original was written with Latin letters, as in Italian language's script rules The μεταγραφές, accents etc, are things of editors who may transcribe it differently, so... do not take the greek version as a prototype. A... I see wikt:el:νιανιάς (e.g. gna = νια). ... give me a minute... checking sources.Kriaras,

for anemi, one must give the address of the htm page too-I cannot find it now- I think it is the Ξανθουδίδης ed. One needs to see the Preface of the editor. ...

a!!! got the νιανιά manuscript. find at the dropdown Piatto... Carta 367v

1st verse = na tu ti fero tu gniagnia sto spiti na ti pepsi

! aaaa Kyrie Niko, nice.

I am trying now to coordinate some things here at en.wikt. for Medieval Greek, but it is difficult!! and some people are sooo much against it. It saddens me. Ok! Good luck with Foscolos (but better use solid sources -modern criticial editions- or the little phrases from GrammCambridge, just to be in the safe side of spellings) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

PS Thank you kyrie @Nikos1nikos1 for coming all the way, here, to ping me. Because at my el.Talk, people have the habit of butting in, with comments, sometimes insulting too, which I do not like. Thank you again. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 17:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

dating Med words

Kyrie @Nikos1nikos1, the only time i write periods for a lemma, is if my dictionary says ρητά It is a word of XX century. Because, I do not know what was the first attestation, or how many writers there are -perhaps more sources at other dictionaries-. And anyway, it is not our job here to date them. Thankj you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Splitting of gkm

Καλησπέρα σας! I noticed that the MedGr discussion from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits has been archived; does that mean the split is finally to be approved? Or have I missed some development? A. T. Galenitis (talk) 13:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

No, M @A. T. Galenitis, it was a temporary edit, undone immediately after.

Although, with your recent change of mind, an opinion of a Greek -I presume- and an editor of your stature, I wouldn't be surprised if it will go to archives and preserve the alias, in my opionion, linguistically and politically incorrect, 'byzantine language'. Anyway, I intend to work on my usernamespace for things not accepted in en.wikt. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, I missed that. Regarding the change on the renaming vote, I hope you will excuse me - I was only motivated by pragmatism. I am of your opinion on the matter and I really appreciate your efforts; however, I feel the entire discussion was being derailed by the terminological debate and missing the (to me most infuriating) reality of MedGr still being under the "Ancient Greek" banner. As was mentioned, renaming is a far quicker and simpler process than splitting and I believe it is best to fight this battle in the future, after the grottesque τσουβάλιασμα of MedGr with Ancient has been resolved first. My sincere apologies if this was not well received, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 19:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

βράζει το αίμα μου

Γεια σας! Regarding the etymology of βράζει το αίμα μου I have to admit I could not find a Greek source testifying the Turkish origin. However, what is most certain is that the Turkish term is ancient (has been probably inherited from Proto-Turkic) as is evident by the large number of cognates in distant Turkic languages, too (Azerbaijani qanı qaynamaq, Kazakh қаны қайнау, Tatar qan qaynatu, Uzbek qoni qaynamoq)—I have added one reference in the Further Reading section. So as long as a pre-Ottoman use of the term in Greek is not attested, I think it is safe to assume a calque from Turkish. This is a common phenomenon with idioms/proverbs, as for my previous lemma ζήσε Μάη μου να φας τριφύλλι, though in that case the order of which language it was borrowed from to where is harder to ascertain. Hope that covers it!

I also wanted to let you know I will be taking a break from wiktionary again, I only returned the past week to refresh my editing skills a bit. Do let me know of any developments on MedGr, however, I will make sure to keep checking on that. Χαιρετισμούς, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Mr @A. T. Galenitis, I was trying to find the 'calque' for more than 15 minutes. It seems it is a calque. -there are only very few etymologies of phrases in Greek dictionaries- But no Greek etymologist says so. For instance {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} discusses other expressions and phrases s.v. αίμα, but not this one. I would prefer to be understandable to the readers -and fellow editors, trying to find the source-, that it is the opinion of en.wikt editors: the categorisation under calques. Or perhaps +a request for verification. Thank you, I hope you will come back this year. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 23:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Taxonomy alerts?

I was pinged by a posting you reverted. Is this something you are actively working on? I wouldn't mind being pinged for taxonomy related queries. I already watch almost all taxonomy categories, but that wouldn't help many new users. DCDuring (talk) 12:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Ο! of course not, M @DCDuring; a mistake, probably while tring out a Template. Sorry to bother you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 22:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

OK. No problem. DCDuring (talk) 23:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Χρωστάω

Hi, I don't know where to post this but maybe you can help. I have noticed that in the Greek version of χρωστάω the template is applied to a wrong root ("χρωστά" instead of "χρωστ") so now all the forms are wrong (χρωστάάω-χρωστάώ etc.) I don't know how to correct it. Thank you! 2A02:A03F:668C:7C01:6C3F:8D2B:8AF3:9A85 21:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, checking χρωστάω (chrostáo), it is ok. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 22:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Parameter checking

Hi - please do not remove these from Greek templates just because you have corrected the pages with issues, because in the future, someone might add them with the same issues again. What you've done is like removing the warning lights on your car after you fixed a problem. Theknightwho (talk) 11:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Please stop doing this. Theknightwho (talk) 12:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

O? @Theknightwho Sorry, I didn't have any instructions. But they are everywhere. How would I know if they are cleaned up or not? Ok never mind. I stop. Thank you for guidance. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Cleaning up the entries is great - thank you for doing that. What I'm objecting to is removing {{#invoke:checkparams}} from the templates afterwards. Theknightwho (talk) 12:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

You will know they've been cleaned up because there won't be any entries in the tracking category for that template. Theknightwho (talk) 12:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I do not know where these tracking things are. But, it is ok @Theknightwho. Βy the way: Initially I could not understand the expression 'checkparams|warn Validate template parameters. I was checking the parameters againg and again, (in the Templates) and could not find anything. Then, the verb validate is very nice, but, not being a native speaker of English, I thought I had to ratify or something, the parameters in the Templates. M JeffDoozan, thankfully, explained to me that I should check the pages, at his very helpful page The application, not the Template itself. Sorry to step in, at technical things, which I do not understand anyway. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Here's an example: Category:Pages using bad params when calling Template:el-conjug-1st-imperfective. In this case, the problem is on the template's documentation page, which is why it's showing up in the category. Theknightwho (talk) 12:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

More generally, there's Category:Pages using bad params when calling Greek templates, which will probably start to fill up with more pages over the next few days now that I've added parameter tracking to lots more templates. Theknightwho (talk) 12:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Inquiry about grave-accented word

Sorry, I didn't understand your question in this edit summary: "+interwikii. // M Erutuon how is it possible to see the bareia/grave correcly here, when not posstible for one word alone? μολὼν". Could you clarify? — Eru·tuon 16:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for replying @Erutuon! Usually bareia looks bad at titles (any title: a single word or more words). For example μολὼν. What I see at my browser is somehing like that:

μολω\ν I see it like that at History of lemma

Which is why, we lemmatise words only with normal tonos, and then, put the bareias where needed in the body of the lemma (at head, quotations etc). For example we lemmatise wikt:el:μολών λαβέ . not [1], wikt:el:μολὼν λαβέ, not wikt:fr:μολὼν λαβέ, ... and put the bareias inside. No link and no lemma has any bareia.

+other examples wikt:el:ἤ τάν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς corrected in-lemma as: ἢ τὰν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς

wikt:el:επί#Εκφράσεις, all polytonic expressions with bareias are linked with normal tonos, and then, corrected manually.

But here, I see correctly the combination of it, word-with-bareia +another-word-following μολὼν λαβέ. This does not happen at other wiktionaries. It is shown correctly only here.

The result μολὼν λαβέ is very nice. Interwiki links, though, have to be linked manually.

I was wondering, what intervention has been applied, to make it look correct? Is this a gadget that other wikitonaries do not have? Could it be corrected for all wiktionaries together? Thank you so much for your patience. 21:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the baria displays fine for me in all circumstances. 0DF (talk) 00:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It's probably about what fonts are 1. installed in your operating system and 2. chosen by the browser to render the text in. The browser is choosing a font that doesn't have good glyphs of Greek letters with grave accents (and potentially other polytonic diacritics). This is fixable in a few cases. In entries like μολὼν λαβέ, Module:headword adds a display title magic word that styles the top header with HTML tags (<span class="Polyt">μολὼν λαβέ</span>). class="Polyt" makes some CSS in MediaWiki:Gadget-LanguagesAndScripts.css apply to the top header, which causes the browser to select the first one of the fonts on this list that the reader has installed. (The CSS has no effect if the reader has none of the fonts installed.) These fonts have good glyphs for polytonic accented characters, so the top header displays well. This doesn't work in Special:History/μολὼν λαβέ however because the display title doesn't have any effect on the history page. The display title could probably be added to nonexistent pages like μολών λαβέ by editing MediaWiki:Noarticletext to fix the problem there though.

I have seen the badly displaying grave accent in the past. Right now, the history page has most of the Greek characters in the font Georgia, but the letter ὼ is in Times New Roman. I checked this using my browser's Developer Tools. It doesn't look bad though. I think years ago, my browser might have used a worse font for the grave-accented letter. That might be happening in your browser. — Eru·tuon 20:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

θαυματουργός

Hi, I saw your edits on this page. I added the Lampe reference in the further reading section, but I've not seen any pages yet that have a reference template for Lampe. but it is freely available on archive.org so we should make use of it. L0ngh3nry89 (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I removed my incorrectly cited reference. I'm still getting used to wiktionary's citation format. L0ngh3nry89 (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello M @L0ngh3nry89. Yes, one must look for recent edits by administrators and copypaste from there. I threw away all my cheat sheets because parameteres keep changing. It takes me a long time to check at SearchBox each and every grc template I use, or any template. Some time ago, I have tried to add things at User:Erutuon/Ancient Greek model pages but probably these pages should be updated now. There are no people doing Greek exclusively at the moment. Your Template link was correct. I could update the Template:R:grc:Lampe but I am not interfering with templates at en.wikt if i do not understand what they say (e.g. ugly hacks...) Anyway, thank you. -sorry that at the moment I am unwell and cannot edit like I did before. I wish you good luck. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 20:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Greek rhymes

@Sarri.greek Just returned from Παξοί (was it six years ago‽), hence delay in a response to that subject. I'm sorry but I cannot contribute, didn't now these categories existed and I'm not sure why they do. 40°+ keep cool   — Saltmarsh^☮ 06:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Saltmarsh! I am so happy that you had a good time. I am unwell; I will let you know when I have more news from some forthcoming biopsies. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 07:27, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

‪χήτη

Thank you! I wasn't sure whether the quotation was needed in the article, which is why I added it to the edit summary. I used the "New Entry Creator" button to create the page, but it looks as though I did something wrong. I have a lot to learn! Bibliosporias (talk) 16:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Clarification

My apologies if this isn’t where I should ask this, but I just wanted to clarify. So the rfe|el should not be removed until a sufficiently detailed origin is composed in the etymology section? Zailo Zillion (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello M @Zailo Zillion, welcome to en.wikt. Sorry for delayed response. True, especially for languages we do not study or do not speak (we better not edit there). _1. probably we recognise morphology analysis, but even this, has a certain way to be formed. _2. as for the origin of the word, how could we know for sure without a source? that is a source we are familiar with. You may leave the {{rfe}} intact, There is also, the template {{etystub}}, which asks for more info. This way, someone will see it and provide full sources. PS there are so many templates around here, Check how we write links with {{l}} (link). Each link, carries with it many other things: transliterations, genders, translations etc. BUT, when we mention words in etymologies, we use template {{m}} (mention)... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

βῶξ

@Sarri.greek Could you check the declension of wikt:el:βῶξ at wikt:el.Nikos1nikos1 (talk) 20:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

M @Nikos1nikos1, fixed. Difficult for me, after hospital. PS it would be so nice of you, if you visit now and then some OLD lemmata (they have no LOGEION because there was no such link at the time of their creation). I planned to do it myself, but I am unable now. Thank you so much. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

ὕδνον

M @Nikos1nikos1, why not Koine wikt:el:ὕδνον? are not all writers μεταγενέστεροι? (never mind here, they never mark the hellenistic terms). Also: the etymology {etym|pregrc|grc|text=1} must be explained, I think or request ety+ as Beekes explains it. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek According to Brill and lsj abbreviations: (Theophrastus Philosophus [Thphr.] iv/iii B.C. Ed. F. Wimmer, Leipzig (T.) 1854-62; HP, Od., Sign., ed. Sir Arthur Hort, London and New York (Loeb) 1916.) (Theophrastus Peripatetic philosopher, IV–III BCE, Θεόφραστος: ed. F. Wimmer, T 1854–62 and D 1866.). Do you think we should regard Theophrastus as Koine writer? Nikos1nikos1 (talk) 15:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Nikos1nikos1 mmm, chronologically, on the edge. But post Aristotelian. Not sure. Must find him inside the text of Μπαμπ2010 to see what this 4th century is languagewise. I will try Control+F at the pdf for Θεοφρ. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 15:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is Koine, M @Nikos1nikos1 Please check Babiniotis2010 lemmata ανάρπαστος, ανάστημα, αναφέρω, άπαγε κλπ... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 15:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

PS @Nikos1nikos1... which is logical, because this life span (371 π.Χ. – 287 π.Χ.) means that he flourishes older than 20, 30 years old. One does not expect a writer to write 5 years old! :) M Niko, I type with difficulty. Thank you for your edits! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

.ts

@Sarri.greek — I hope that your spirits are not low.
1. The trouble with keeping a low profile is that things take you by surprise, I noticed that you've added «.ts» to some templates. Should I check if some are left undone? I assume that it's no more complicated than allowing an alternative translit.
2. «ατσιγγούνευτος» is a word in my el:en dictionary, it appears not to exist anywhere else except for two Google hits in Germany. The translation given «ungrudging» (= not resentful). Do you think I should add it to Wiktionary?   — Saltmarsh^☮ 10:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Dear @Saltmarsh. My spirits are always semi-high, I am now at therapy phase. But the lymph nodes surgery caused a shoulder tendon syndrome. I cannot use my left hand too much, I type with the right hand, very slowly, so, I cannot make any long edits. Presently, the excellent M Voltaigne is contributing great pages indeed.

1. ts. I add it whenever the transliteration is too different from the actual pronunciation. It is not so difficult for an editor to add |ts={{{ts|}}} at any Template, if needed. Here is μπαμπάς (bampás /⁠babás⁠/), a word that truly needs a 'ts=' PS About Wiktionary:Greek transliteration: This is an edited version of the official ISO-843 type A (one-to-one symbols). I have asked en.wikt if there is an obligation of Wiktionary to present the official ISO, plus some wiktionary-versions. They said "no", the official ISO is not obligatory. Personally, I prefer the version with gh for γ, dh for δ, kh for χ. The gh and dh version unblocks g and d making them available for γκ/γγ and ντ. (2023 discussion) But never mind.

2. ατσγικούνευτος/ατσιγγούνευτος. Not found at the usual dict-sources of ours, but yes, definately exists in texts (see feminine ατσιγκούνευτη, also the adverb ατσιγκούνευτα. Note, the dictionaries which consider it an αντιδάνειο (antidáneio) use the old spelling with ⟨γγ⟩, and dictionaries which do not, spell τσιγκούνης (tsigkoúnis) with ⟨γκ⟩ which is our main lemma too. (I added it there as derivative). Its translation is "one who is not stingy when offering something" literally and figuratively e.g. ατσιγκούνευτη συμπαράσταση f (symparástasi, “support”) / βοήθεια f (voḯtheia, “help”). The translation "ungrudging", I find too distant; probably is figurative near-synonymic. Antonym = τσιγκούνικος (tsigkoúnikos). Synonyms: γενναιόδωρος (gennaiódoros, “generous”), πλουσιοπάροχος (plousiopárochos), απλόχερος (aplócheros).

Thank you, dear Salt!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 13:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh @Sarri.greek sad for a pianist — I wish you a slow return to full usage. And thanks for the info.   — Saltmarsh^☮ 13:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thank you for your kind words. Your contributions and guidance are greatly appreciated. I wish you the best of health. Voltaigne (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I'm told that I never read anything properly! I just came back to your reply again and I must thank you for your scholarly advice about -γγ-/-γκ- evolution. Many, many thanks   — Saltmarsh^☮ 05:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The old discussion in its new place

Hello, Sarri. It was good of you to create that updated signpost. How is your health nowadays? Do you feel up to answering those questions I posed you at WT:LTR#Medieval Greek from Ancient Greek yet? No pressure if not; I just thought I'd check. All the best. 0DF (talk) 05:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello M @0DF, thank you for your interest. Healthwise, I am under therapies (sometimes very hectic). I apologise, that I cannot remember your questions. I am typing with difficulty and I cannot participate in discussions that are too long.

If they rename 'Byzantine' to 'Medieval' or 'Mediaeval Greek', I will be able to check all occurrences. If they split Medieval Greek from Ancient Greek, I will slowly edit the not so many pages involved, marking the too many unmarked Koine entries too.

Attn @Benwing2, Chuck Entz as linguists and bureaucrats: I believe I will have the time to do it. It is simple: There IS a mediaeval period for Greek (grk) (working code everywhere: gkm, or more 'officially' proposed here as grk-gkm). Please include it in en.wiktionary, filling a gap of some 10 centuries from grk's c.3,000+ history. I might make a few very simple templates needed when necessary.

I will be happy to answer questions here; excuse my short answers. Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 13:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I'm sorry to hear it's still rough for you. The questions are all in WT:LTR#Medieval Greek from Ancient Greek, but that became quite a long discussion by the end. It doesn't seem very ethical to subject you to more questioning in your current condition. Since renaming the chronolect was and is a matter of some contention, what's stopping you from being “able to check all occurrences” of Byzantine [Greek]? 0DF (talk) 01:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@0DF, thank you. gkm automatically gives 'Byzantine'. I have already cleaned up all old manual edits for the language. If administrators that are professional linguists do not prefer the title 'Medieval' to 'Byzantine', there is nothing I can do. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@0DF @Sarri.greek I don't think either of you is going to change their mind with further discussion, so I don't think more questions are in order. Given that there is a (bare) supermajority of 4-2 (pro: @Sarri.greek @Saltmarsh @Thadh @Mahagaja; con: @Nicodene; @0DF) with one abstention, I am inclined to go ahead with the rename of Byzantine -> Medieval. More importantly, there is strong support for splitting Medieval/Byzantine out of Ancient Greek, and I don't want this name dispute to be a blocking issue. If it turns out that later on we decide to go back to the name Byzantine, that is not hard to do and I can do it by bot (I've done plenty of such renames before). @Sarri.greek Please be aware that logistically, splitting out gkm into its own L2 language requires adopting a temporary code for either the new L2 language or the old etym-only language while both are coexisting, until everything is moved. My inclination is actually to do the following:

1. Set up tracking for both the gkm and newly adopted grc-gkm codes.
2. Rename the etym-only code gkm -> grc-gkm by bot. Leave its name as "Byzantine Greek".
3. Remove the etym-only tracking for gkm once there are no more references. Leave the tracking for grc-gkm; this will make Sarri's job easier below.
4. Create a new L2 language gkm named "Medieval Greek". (Having them have different names is fortuitous as it will avoid some complaints about duplicate language names.)
5. Sarri, over time, moves the relevant entries to the ==Medieval Greek== header and cleans up any existing references to grc-gkm.
6. When all references to grc-gkm are gone, we can remove this etym-only code.

Also pinging @Theknightwho and @Surjection (who have been involved in prior language splits) for any technical comments. Benwing2 (talk) 07:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

M @Benwing2, thank you so much for your reply and thorough plan! I can see how busy you are, dealing with so many languages. I appreciate your work, and your decision; a true gift to grk but also to me, personally. Please note, that admin @Mahagaja has proposed official code grk-gkm, not grc-gkm as it is a period of Hellenic language (grk). I'll follow your edits closely and will do my best, a bit slowly, but diligently; I shall rename Categories, update wikidata and do all the work where adiministrators need not to be bothered. I search with insource: and intitle: I might make a little label to produce: Late Medieval or Early Modern Greek +cat, if I encounter words of 1500, 1600. High register (with datives etc, similar to Koine), can be covered by {lb|gkm|learned}. Thank you, thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:31, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I'm not sure the context behind grk-gkm but grc-gkm is a temporary label used because it refers to a variety of grc. The temporary label will go away once everything is converted to the L2 language gkm. Benwing2 (talk) 08:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek with apologies - this is really beyond my "pay grade" and terra incognita to me. I rarely venture there. To you personally Sarri - I have friends who have been through similar tribulations and worries, my best wishes.   — Saltmarsh^☮ 17:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I'll agree that no one objects to splitting Byzantine Greek out of Ancient Greek, and that the split should go ahead; however, I don't see how “this name dispute [is] a blocking issue”. Why can't the split take place without changing the name? Unfortunately, I think the original discussion suffered for its obscure location in WT:RFM (now moved to the even more specialised WT:LTR); perhaps there would have been greater engagement had it taken place in WT:BP, where Sarri.greek initially posted about it. To remedy this, shall I draft a vote about the naming issue?

AFAICT, most of what needs to be done on “the front end” is to edit the 289 member-entries of Category:Byzantine Greek to rename, split out, or duplicate their contents as appropriate; of its member-subcategories, only Category:Byzantine surnames needs (presumably) to be renamed Category:Byzantine Greek surnames. As for the changes on “the back end”, I don't really understand why that six-stage process is necessary. Would it not be sufficient to make {{lb|grc|Byzantine}} (and its aliases) categorise into the temporary topic category Category:grc:Byzantine Greek until all the relevant entries are edited to use the new L2 header? I apologise if that is a naïve question. 0DF (talk) 09:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

M @0DF. They are not Byzantine. Not necessarily. I would edit under such a title only for historical, artistic fields, probably at wikipedias. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Sorry, what aren't Byzantine? 0DF (talk) 09:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Do you mean the surnames? Are they, rather, Koine? Shall I recategorise them? 0DF (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

M @0DF, aimez-vous les byzantinismes? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I'm sure that's very witty, and perhaps I should respond « Pas du tout ! » or something; I'm also sure you're better acquainted with French literature than I am. But to interpret you literally, rather than literarily, no, I don't tend to adopt overcomplicated solutions, and I fail to see how my technically naïve suggestion to Benwing is in any way more complicated than the plan he laid out. 0DF (talk) 17:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@0DF I don't honestly see the need to relitigate this with a formal vote. WT:RFM is the normal place where language moves and splits used to happen (and now WT:LTR). AFAIK everyone has been pinged and had a chance to comment, and the process requesting yes/no votes has been open far longer than a standard vote. However, I will defer to what User:-sche says, who has been the overall person shepherding language moves through; do you think a formal vote is needed? As for the plan I suggested, yes this is necessary because of the existence of the current gkm code; the labels are not the only place that Byzantine/Medieval Greek is being referred to. Benwing2 (talk) 19:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Surnames

Moving it from above ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Anyway, I checked out the four surnames in Category:Byzantine surnames. Their bearers include Ἰωάννης Ζωναρᾶς (c. 1070–c. 1140), Κωνσταντῖνος Θʹ Μονομάχος (c. 980/c. 1000–1055), Ἰωάννης Σκυλίτζης (early 1040s–p. 1101), and Ἰωάννης Τζέτζης (c. 1110–1180). The 10th–12th centuries are solidly Byzantine, thus so are those names. If they're Koine as well, then they'll have Ancient Greek entries, too. I see no problem there. Or do I misunderstand you? (I'm trying my best, but I wasn't sure what your “They” referred to.) 0DF (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@0DF Ω, DF! Of course. They are officials of the Byzantine Empire, or authors of Byzantine Literature, or emperors. But their surnames are in Medieval Greek. They are either inherited from Koine, or new Medieval language. Sorry: going to bed now. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Oh, I see; it was solely an objection to the nomenclature. Sleep well. When you're feeling up to it, I would sincerely appreciate reading your own reasons for advocating the name “Medi(a)eval Greek” and rejecting the name “Byzantine Greek” — as opposed to a laconic nod toward Holton et al. 0DF (talk) 18:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)