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Happy New YearEdit

Salt! Happy, happy 2019!! Could you check this Template:el-adj-fem back from April 2018. Someone made it for αλληλοσυγκρουόμενη (from αλληλοσυγκρούομαι). Your sarri.greek (talk) 00:00, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

And the same to you @Sarri.greek - and thanks for all your work in 2018. I'll delete {{el-adj-fem}} unused and unneeded! — Saltmarsh. 06:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Broken templatesEdit

Please see here and review if you made other errors like this. —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Koavf Thanks for letting me know, a bulk edit that went wrong, I don't suppose there are any others - let's hope so anyway! — Saltmarsh. 06:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

template questionEdit

Sorry to bother you, Salt, with 'outside' work, but I need to ask this: I am making a template at el.wikt (haaaaa!!), where i combine words {tempname|word1|word2.. etc. and for each one I add a category. Fine up to here. BUT now, I need to 'recognize' and distinguish them as

  • prefix (hyphen...anycharacter)
  • interfix (hyphern...hyphen)
  • and suffix (anycharacter...hyphen)

Is this possible? Or do I need lua? {*_*} sarri.greek (talk) 23:17, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Just checking: you want the template to examine (and categorise) a word: detect whether it has a hyphen at the beginning, at the end or at both? Or do you mean something else? — Saltmarsh. 06:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Good morning @Saltmarsh, yes that's what I mean. I need it to 'read' the characters. sarri.greek (talk) 06:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek I'm sorry - I don't think you can do this in a template. As you say - you probably can with Lua, which behaves like a proper programming language. I think that if I had learnt to use Lua it would have been much easier to do these inflection tables. I made a brief foray into it, didn't find the help files very helpful and wasn't prepared to spend the time. I gave up (although I have spent at least 20 years of my life doing programming in a variety of languages). So I'm sorry I cannot help. — Saltmarsh. 06:51, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

little questionEdit

Saltmarsh, sorry to bother you for a non-en.wikt question, but I need your advice, teacher! I am to make an infobox for el.wiktionary. I made two templates. This one with a table and another with no table. Which one, do you think is more 'error-free'? Are there any terrible mistakes? I have no idea why that clear:right; clear-left; does not work from the div section, so, I used br=clear all. Thanks (I am doing πίνω, i did not forget!) --sarri.greek (talk) 03:13, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I find it difficult to see exactly what-is-what, because your template is jumbled up with other text. IMHO it would be better to have your templates as a stand-alone units (like {{el-see}} say) and call it from another page. As for which is better (I'm not sure about error-free, reading other people's code can be confusing) but I would "keep it simple" and if you want a table in a box use a simple one. Sorry - that's not much help :) — Saltmarsh. 06:53, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

little question - contdEdit

@Sarri.greek Sorry for the delay, can I look later? I have done a bit of routine, and then got tied up with αναστολέας and ανασταλικός. — Saltmarsh. 07:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh ok! I will learn what αναστολέας means! (unknown word). SALT! I have done Template:el-conjug-'πίνω', Template:el-conjug-'-πίνω' (compounds). and Template:el-conjug-'-πίνω'-act but I do not know if the names are ok... sarri.greek (talk) 07:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek they sound fine — Saltmarsh. 07:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────αναστολέας — @Sarri.greek now you know!
Do you have strong feelings about substantive adjectives - ανασταλτικό/ανασταλτικός - do you create the noun or just do something like this under the Adjective heading:

1 inhibitive
2 (used as a noun) inhibition
Saltmarsh. 07:41, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
strong fellings?? @Saltmarsh I mention at the adjective def, as you show here + see ανασταλτικό, and of course i do the noun, with Ety 'substantivized adjective by ellipsis of the neuter noun φάρμακο'. (I presume that is the correct meaning) this particular noun is not terribly substantivized: neither DSMG nor Babi mention it as a noun, but that's how i would do it. why? sarri.greek (talk) 07:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh I am LOOKING for it as a noun and I cannot see anything there. It is just, that sometimes people omit the noun (wheather it is about law or medicine or whatever). sarri.greek (talk) 07:59, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

big questionEdit

@Saltmarsh I need to ask you: At the moment, I am too slow with adding conjugations. I can make verb-conjugations (especially of many compounds) quite safely and fast, for many red lemmata. Also the IPA i can do very fast. But i cannot do the definitions and the blahblah. There meanings are too subtle, often idiomatic and my Magenta e-dictionary is at my old computer which is half-out-of-order. It takes me too long to find the correct translations at the internet. What can we do?

  • 1. I make a draft page with all conjugations, and you may use them later, whenever you open the lemmata.
  • 2. I open the lemmata with IPA, conjug and a refdef

What would you like me to do? sarri.greek (talk) 08:08, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

1. Oh - please {{rfdef}} them — I will try and keep up with them! And - if you're at a loose end - the verbs in Category:User:Saltmarsh need the new templates (and then the old templates can be deleted) - but don't feel you have to do them immediately.
2. ανασταλτικό/ανασταλτικός — I have done these two in the way in which I generally do these noun/adjs. I have been known on a lazy day to leave out the noun heading under ανασταλτικό and leave a def labelled as used as a noun
Saltmarsh. 09:37, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok @Saltmarsh about the verbs. I am very busy at el.wikt with my new responsibilities there (soooo many things to do, I ll need your advice about many things), but i do verbs by group: it is easy to add them when i deal with each subgroup or caterory.
2. >>generally do these noun/adjs<< Salt? are you under the impression that EVERY adjective substantivizes its neuter?? This would be a misunderstaning. It has to be stated at a dictionary that it does to. sarri.greek (talk) 09:43, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek (1) I used to (occasionally) add en translateions to el-wikt, probably not often enough - but one cannot do everything! (2) No! No! only where I found dcitionary entry for a word. But where they occurred I felt we ought to create as with ανασταλτικό - I'll carry on doing that. — Saltmarsh. 09:49, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Form-of templates in etymology linesEdit

@Sarri.greek Hello. Sorry to bother you guys. I notice that you normally put {{el-participle of}} template calls in etymology lines. {{el-participle of}} functions like a form-of template, and the normal convention that's used elsewhere is to put such template calls on the definition line. Hence instead of:

{{el-participle of|μουσκεύομαι|perfect|nodot=1}}, ''passive voice of'' {{m|el|μουσκεύω}}.

* {{IPA|/musceˈmenos/|lang=el}}
* {{hyphenation|μου|σκε|μέ|νος|lang=el}}


# [[sodden]], [[soak]]ed, [[drench]]ed
#: {{ux|el|Έβρεχε και είμαι '''μουσκεμένος''' μέχρι το κόκαλο.|It was raining and I am '''soaked''' to the bone.}}
#: {{ux|el|Τι ζέστη! Είμαι '''μουσκεμένη''' στον ιδρώτα.|So hot! I am '''soaked''' in sweat.}}
#: {{ux|el|Στύψε τα '''μουσκεμένα''' ρούχα, σε παρακαλώ.|Please wring the '''soaked''' clothes.}}

the normal convention is to write:

* {{IPA|/musceˈmenos/|lang=el}}
* {{hyphenation|μου|σκε|μέ|νος|lang=el}}


# {{el-participle of|μουσκεύω|passive perfect|nodot=1}}: [[sodden]], [[soak]]ed, [[drench]]ed
#: {{ux|el|Έβρεχε και είμαι '''μουσκεμένος''' μέχρι το κόκαλο.|It was raining and I am '''soaked''' to the bone.}}
#: {{ux|el|Τι ζέστη! Είμαι '''μουσκεμένη''' στον ιδρώτα.|So hot! I am '''soaked''' in sweat.}}
#: {{ux|el|Στύψε τα '''μουσκεμένα''' ρούχα, σε παρακαλώ.|Please wring the '''soaked''' clothes.}}

Here I also changed the lemma listed in the call to {{el-participle of}} to the active lemma; AFAIK, passive infinitives in Modern Greek that aren't deponent aren't separate lemmas from their corresponding active infinitives any more than in Latin, Ancient Greek or English. I left out the etymology section, which is normal in non-lemma pages (participles in Wiktionary are normally considered non-lemmas). If you want an etymology section, it can be written like this:


which is just a placeholder.

Again, pardon me for intruding, and my apologies if I'm missing something fundamental in Modern Greek grammar; maybe User:JohnC5 and/or User:Rua can comment. Benwing2 (talk) 23:13, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Mea culpa and no need for apologies. I probably suggested to @Sarri.greek that this achieved an end. As you say if it's a "participle-of" it doesn't need an etymology. Sarri will correct me, but if the word is derived from an Ancient term it should probably be classified as an adjective (quite often it is questionable which PoS a term is). — Saltmarsh. 05:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Cool. I would say that if a given participle doesn't synchronically belong to any verbal paradigm, then it's an adjective, not a participle. English has various examples, e.g. "drunken", once the past participle of "drink" but now just an adjective (the normal past participle is "drunk"). Benwing2 (talk) 06:19, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Thanks — Saltmarsh. 09:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

some deletesEdit

I think i have marked some pages with delete, but cannot remember which. There is also σπουργιτίου and σπουργιτίων. Could you delete those too. (I fixed the σπουργιτιού & σπουργιτιών. Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
oops, and all the στρωατοποίηση froms are mistyping of στρωματοποίηση. sarri.greek (talk) 11:17, 19 April 2019 (UTC)


Dear Salt! At λύνομαι and at λύνω there have been some changes: the definitions which are specific to the passive, were removed. And the link to them, from λύνω. Also at βρέχει. @Saltmarsh, I keep on adding conjugations, always grateful for your lovely templates! I am moving a bit slowly, but i try to do some examples from each category. Also, thanks for notifying us about italiot φουμάρα (sorry that I know nothing about italiot greek except some songs). PS. Your archives 20018 has one extra zero :) Your sarri.greek (talk) 22:20, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

  • @Sarri.greek Thanks for noting my typo! As you will see I've left a note for Rua and reverted her edit. It's difficult to know where to work, so I just follow what interests me on a particular day. It's interesting that the w:OED started in 1857 and in 1900 they had only published as far a G ! — Saltmarsh. 05:02, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Appendix:Books of the Bible (Greek)Edit

Can you remember your intentions regarding Acts under Appendix:Books of the Bible (Greek) and possibly implement them? --StephanNaro (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

  • @StephanNaro I no doubt got sidelined onto something else (there's so much to do :) — I have no immediate intentions — Saltmarsh. 04:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  •  :-) I'll permit myself to assume that you didn't look at the page. There is a typo that looks like this: "el|Πράξεις]], [[Πράξεις των Αποστόλων}}", and I thought you might see immediately what measures to take. (Anyway, it's not important to me - in fact I've opted for different sources.) --StephanNaro (talk) 07:34, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Well I did look, superficially. The typo now corrected. — Saltmarsh. 08:29, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Latin/Greek etymologies for scientific namesEdit

Hi. I am one of the Commissioners for the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature. We had a meeting of the Commission recently, and one of the things I am following up on is evaluation of online sources as potential use as "official" lexicons for scientific names of Latin/Greek origin (especially crucial for words derived from Greek). I realize that Wiktionary presumably does not have a formal administrative body, but I believe that for at least an initial set of questions, talking a few things over with an admin such as yourself might be helpful. If you have a chance, I would greatly appreciate an e-mail from you, or maybe a recommendation as to other admins who might be able to assist. Thanks in advance. Dyanega 23:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I am interested in taxonomic names, have a bare few sources of etymologies, and would welcome the chance to facilitate the process of enhancing our coverage. See Category:Requests for etymologies in Translingual entries for some of the missing ones, principally names of genera, but also higher taxa not formed by suffixation on names of genera. DCDuring (talk) 02:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
@Dyanega I am afraid that I am barely qualified to find Modern Greek names, Ancient Greek and Latin are beyond my competence and I rarely venture into the field of etymology — so sorry! — Saltmarsh. 04:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps @Metaknowledge, Chuck Entz have interest and knowledge in this area. DCDuring (talk) 05:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. It would likely be a little awkward to try to discuss things here in detail, so - if possible - e-mail will be preferable (my WP page has my e-mail listed). Just to give an idea, a basic thing that I'm trying to establish is whether or not policies can be put in place in Wiktionary to (1) create categories that link to terms of nomenclatural relevance (especially suffixes, of which Wiktionary presently has relatively few), and (2) prevent circularity; by the latter I mean that the ICZN Code compels authors to determine (for example) whether a word is a noun or an adjective by using an actual Latin/Greek lexicon, but a very small number of the entries I've seen in Wiktionary claim that certain terms (mostly noun phrases) are adjectival solely because they appear in scientific names (with no other supporting evidence), and that is circular reasoning, which violates the requirements of the Code. How biologists use a name says nothing about its actual grammatical status, because biologists are frequently wrong (e.g., a paper just published this week that changed a species name from erebus to ereba because they did not realize it was a personal noun, and none of the reviewers caught the mistake). If errors made by biologists are used to justify listing nouns as adjectives, this will only perpetuate the errors, and render Wiktionary useless as an independent and objective "check" for nomenclature. Thanks. Dyanega 06:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
@Dyanega: Hi Doug. We're a bit anarchistic here, so it would probably be better to discuss your ideas on-wiki rather than by email — you can post in the Beer parlour with your thoughts if you'd like to take it to a wider audience. I'm also in academic science, but I don't do systematics; that said, if you want someone to email or skype with, I'd be happy to chat (and I suspect we have a handful of acquaintances in common). I'd like to improve Wiktionary's coverage of taxonomic nomenclature, but I want to warn you that it's going to be a long time before we can be a useful resource for ICZN's purposes, so your suggestions are probably going to help us without helping you. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 09:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


Hey Saltmarsh, please see sarri.greek's message on αγμένος, they suggest that it should be deleted. - TheDaveRoss 12:28, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Verbs like φτιάχνωEdit

Hello boss! Hope you had/having a great vacation sur le pont d' A. I was thinking of perhaps renaming the Category 29+30 from φτιάχνω to perhaps ψάχνω, with your permission. Because φτιάχνω is a bit weird: one can see 3 syllables φτι.ά.χνω but it is pronounced and conjugated as bisyllabic φτιά.χνω (synizesis for [ia]). It's a bit tricky. sarri.greek (talk) 14:25, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek renaming the category would seem very sensible - we'll be on the train to Provence in 3 weeks time. — Saltmarsh. 05:37, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

One more thing: could you delete αναδείκνομαι. It is a mistyping of αναδείχνομαι, alt. of αναδεικνύομαι. sarri.greek (talk) 14:40, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

αναδείκνομαι is no more — thanks for spotting it — Saltmarsh. 05:46, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Category:Polytonic GreekEdit

Continuing our discussion about polytonic greek (Template talk:el-poly-of)... To add them at normal categories or not to add them?
Salt! I have done only very few polytonics (ἱκέτευσα, ἁγιοποιημένος, ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, etc), as an experiment, to see how they work. My conclusion is that it is impossible to add any more for the following reason:

  • Theoretically, every word starting from a vowel and every word which used to have a perispomene, will one day become a polytonic page, duplication of a corresponding monotonic.
  • They go to: 1a) Category:Polytonic Greek, and the numerous forms perhaps at a 1b) Category:Greek forms in polytonic spelling. But they also enter 2) the normal PoS categories.
  • Thus, the number of lemmata at the normal categories of Modern Greek will be rocketed to approximately plus half. E.g. 12.000 nouns will become ~18.000, 4.000 verbs will become ~6.000 and so on. These numbers are totally false.

The duplication of a word: -diacritics +diacritics is ONE lemma with 2 pages: a central page, and a shadow page.
Vice versa for Katharevousa and older words: the central page is polytonic, their shadow page is monotonic.
I do not know if other languages have this problem of a shadow-spelling-page. Perhaps arabic, but there, the diacritics are a reading aid. For Greek, it is just a typographic simplification with NO other implication.
At the moment, the problem is not evident, because no one is going to start adding polytonics. But eventually, there has to be some policy to face it for Greek, and possibly for other languages.
PS. Polytonic is now 'transliteratable' only by grc. The code el can be used only for monotonic. Which is an extra subject involved. Your sarri.greek (talk) 10:47, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

So! Every noun (say) with perispomene will be doubled up in Category:Greek nouns, I don't think that this is a problem. We already have loads of form-pairs, αγαλματοποιΐα/αγαλματοποιία for example; English has colour/color, archaeology/archæology/archeology. But I don't think that this is a problem. — Saltmarsh. 04:53, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Dear Salt! αγαλματοποιΐα is a misprint.
>> I don't think this is a problem.<< You mean, if Cateogry nouns = 18.000 words, that is ok? They are NOT! They are TOO MANY. Oh never mind... Polytonics are not going to be added anyway. It was just a theoretical question. sarri.greek (talk) 07:38, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek — I think that we both ought to be happy about the way things are organised. If it is Modern Greek (attested since 1453) and its a noun then I think it should be in Category:Greek nouns. If we would like these sub-categorised perhaps we should try to do this. Katharevousa nouns, polytonic nouns, etc, etc. Wwe could probably arrange for any that aren't so labelled to be categorised as something else Category:Greek nouns - name to be arranged. This could perhaps be arranged (or not) by having a further parameter in {{el-noun}}. — Saltmarsh. 11:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Allow me to make a distinction. If a form is Katharevousa or a Medieval word, that indeed is a lemma. Katharevousa belongs to modern times, Medieval to medieval times. (note: 1500-1700 is either late medieval or early modern). They were originally written in polytonic. Standard Greek was also written originally in polytonic, but we present it here with its current script: monotonic. But my question was: are we going to double each and every lemma? Katharevousa polytonic+monotonic. Med.polytonic+monotonic. Greek.monotonic+polytonic...
Whether a lemma (Medieval or Katharevousa or even ancient) is written today in polytonic or monotonic has nothing to do with the form itself. E.g. The Med.dictionary by {{R:Kriaras Medieval}}, has volumes 1-4 in polytonic and then swaps to monotonic by his own decision.
I have no idea how this could be done in wiktionary. I am sorry that I cannot help. I would do it with pseudo- or shadow- pages. Also: what about polytonic transliteration? But, I guess all this has to do with the general policy in wiktionary. I only asked the question, because i thought that Categories also carry statistical information. Please, do not bother yourself too much. The issue will not come up. Not soon, anyway sarri.greek (talk) 12:22, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek — When I said Modern Greek above I really meant all Greek words that won't be found in the Ancient Greek Wiktionary. But to go to your question - do we double each term - I'm sorry I don't know. es perhaps we should leave it :) — Saltmarsh. 04:41, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Could you...Edit

Hello!!! I was admiring your huge work at Appendix:Greek verbs! I will try to fill as many cells as I can, but first, I want to finish more verbs (I need a month or so to finish with labials: -πω-βω-εύω-φω-πτω-φτω. Ι spotted 2 misprints: perhaps you could delete them? αγλάϊσμα, αγλαισμένος, μουσεύτηκα and ανεπηρρέαστος. The επηρεάζω is often written επιρρ- because of the 2 nouns: επήρεια & επιρροή. You may wish to put it at Misspellings, but I would delete it, not to confuse readers. sarri.greek (talk) 12:12, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
O! I had made a mistake: Category:Greek perfect participles with reduplication is really: Category:Greek passive perfect participles with reduplication. Could you delete the first one? Thanks. --sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Update: For some Greek participles which were quite different from the rest: I have put them in special categories. They are only few.
PS. I just realized that at Appendix you use † ‡ § with superscript: I will correct them. By the way: do you want forms added there at the moment? Or do you prefer to leave them blank until they are actually have a page? sarri.greek (talk) 20:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek if there are only two typos I should be surprised! Many come from Jiordi, when I bought it at Helennic Bookservice in London (a really amazing facility) the salesman warned me it contain many "errors", but a Levi said "a language unconfined …". I wouldn't want to drag you away from what you do on Βικι, so thank you all you can do. — Saltmarsh. 04:42, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh! Reminder for deletion for αγαλματοποιΐα, αγαλματοποιΐας, αγαλματοποιΐες, αγλάϊσμα, αγλαισμένος, μουσεύτηκα and ανεπηρρέαστος. They are misprints. The ΐα words are tricky. sarri.greek (talk) 10:56, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)


Good morning cher Saltmarsh!. New word for me, that prorogation. I thought it was pro-rogueation... Update:

  • an IP added conjugations at γεννώ (which I moved as new conjug to γεννάω) and at αναγεννώ which was difficult: I made this new Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-ώ-άω for it. It is a combination of αποσπώ and αγαπάω. Hope it is ok. I thanked the IP, and hope s/he will come again and add some more cojugations!! because I am too slow.
  • during vacation, I thought of checking the model pages for simple things like {IPA|el|...} {{el-form-of... etc, so that people could copy an updated style, if that's ok with you.
  • For NEXT year: I keep thinking about major issues like polytonic, period 1453onwards (polytonic), and at greek etymologies, about inherited words which are internal revivals of ancient words (template and Cat needed). They are, as we have discussed, theoretical questions -no one is going to add medieval words- but, I keep thinking about them...

Your sarri.greek (talk) 04:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Prorogation - huh!
This all sounds good - thank you for your dedicated work - updating the model pages - much needed!
After each election I've had hopes that a new intake of young MPs might seek to bring parliament into the 20th century (21st might be a step too far), for heaven's sake, it takes 30 minutes to take a vote! No such luck. They are currently spending a few billion making the building safe - still no suggestion that there should be sufficient seats for everyone to have a place. It is said that the cloakroom still has a loop of pink ribbon for them to hang up their swords. In post revolution Britain (News from Nowhere, William Morris) the building was used for storing horse manure - excellent! Tomorrow we are en vacances. — Saltmarsh. 05:02, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Salt!! Have a wonderful time, my best wishes to Fr too. And... do tell me if you need anything more. sarri.greek (talk) 05:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 19:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Return to the user page of "Saltmarsh".