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Help neededEdit

Dear Saltmarsh, many wishes for the coming 2020. I see that our el-wikt sysop Sarri.greek is also here ! I am writing to you for help, since I see that you are the original author of Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b:

I am working in el-wikt with the help of FocalPointBot (or otherwise called Talos) in creating declension forms (among other things).

The simple stuff (without moving accents to another syllable), I can do it (example αίθουσα, αίθουσας, αίθουσες). I would like, however, a tool that will allow me to move accents to another syllable, as done by Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b. I tried to copy it to User:FocalPoint/templ-ma and leave only active the |3={{{1}}}ματος. However, it is not that simple as I thought.

My request: I would appreciate if (without spending too much time) you could modify User:FocalPoint/templ-ma so that I could produce a test page like:

(Dead links removed — Saltmarsh.)

which I would like it to produce ..:

..if the switch is set to |3={{{1}}}ματος. I will then take this list to create the relevant entries.

Is this doable? Are you the right person to ask?

Thank you for your support. --FocalPoint (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Καλή χρονιά @FocalPoint! Always willing to help — but to understand exactly what you are trying to do. If all that you want to do is create a declension table, doesn't {{el-nN-μα-ματα-3b}} achieve this? BUT you mention your bot and talk of "creating the relevant entries". Are you trying to create new pages for each inflected form. — Saltmarsh. 07:11, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Αντεύχομαι Saltmarsh. I have already created with the bot new pages for several inflected forms (the ones I could easily produce) and I want to create more. I understand that it seems that I asked for a declension table (which we already have), but I did not exactly ask that: I am asking for a template which will give only one πτώση at a time, with input from the "|" parameter. For example, above, only the genitive singular. In this way, if I input 2000 words in -μα, I will only get 2000 words in their genitive singular form, no formatting, no tables, nothing else. --FocalPoint (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Ahh. now I see why you asked this question, see above, where I displayed the formula. --FocalPoint (talk) 07:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

So... if would like to have this:

{{User:FocalPoint/templ-ma|ακρόαμα}} --> ακροάματος

--FocalPoint (talk) 07:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Our common friend Sarri.greek spoke to me at her discussion page in el-wikt and I realized that the Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b is getting manual feed in order to work, so, it cannot help. The template we have in el-wikt , el:Module:κλίση/el/ουσιαστικό works automatically (no other input than the pagename needed), so I will try to find a solution from there. Many thanks and may 2020 bring all what you want. --FocalPoint (talk) 08:12, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@FocalPoint I am sorry but I'm not going to be much use. Our en.decl.templates are coming on for 10 years old, they serve their purpose, but there are neater waays of achieving this - as you are attempting. In my time I've programmed in Fortran, BASIC and Pascal - but when modules came along (is it Python) my initial attempts failed, so I thought I could be more productive doing something else, I realised the fatal attraction of just polishing that code a bit more - I shall follow you progress with interest.
2020 is going to bring me everything I don't want! Goodbye Europe, hello US/China/etc - for all its faults (as Greece knows onluy too well) the EU was a step in the right direction. With some friend in a pub last night we decided that we wouldn't discuss politics - the resolution didn't last long !! — Saltmarsh. 09:52, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
  • User:Sarri.greek has done it! Look: here
  • Fortran, BASIC and Pascal ! I suppose we have common relatives, showing up in Siberia with the melting permafrost
  • You will be always welcome to emigrate in Greece :) as long you are prepared for your beer to be served cold, rather than warm [1]

--FocalPoint (talk) 10:17, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year!Edit

Dearest Salt! Happy New Year to all of you! I hope you are having a very nice time. My love to F.
PS. I am away from home at the moment. Coming back soon. 07:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thank you, Xmas was quiet, but the grandkids are coming for the weekend so a noisy time is approaching. As regards everything else in England see my comments to FP above. (I am remembering that I said we should address {{el-verb}} in the near future.) — Saltmarsh. 09:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Salt! be optimistic and happy! England is not going to be completely outside Europe. Ever. Just like HenryVIII took it away from Rome, it did not take it away from the 'club' of european functions. Englishness has been known to be very practical, and it wassss a change, to see 'idealistic nationalism' take over: but only by a liiitle bit. I wouldn't worry too much. -trying to console you... but I do believe it is not going to be fatal- sarri.greek (talk) 10:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek I hope your trip away was happy, and well done with your work on modules! I'll be in touch in a week or so. — Saltmarsh. 06:02, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


Saltmarsh! Hello, I cannot find a word «το μύρρο». There is the ancient-only «η μύρρα» (fem.) which is synonym to «η σμύρνα».
«το μύρο/μύρον» = sweet oil, and kind of aromatic perfume/essence and «η σμύρνα» =myrrh. They are different things. Cognate, far back to a PIE root, but different. sarri.greek (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Salt, please, what dictionary gives μύρρο? I have looked up 6 dictionaries and cannot find it. sarri.greek (talk) 11:35, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Γεια σου - Βικι gives it as an alternative spelling, our two forms should have been linked - now rectified. Arrivederci Roma! On Friday black ties will be worn!! — Saltmarsh. 11:40, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
O! do not be sad (I am sad too, I confess). But I belieeeeve that it will change in the following years, I am sure. Ιt is not arrivederci for too long. There will be little 'correcting' steps back, one by one.
What is Βικι? Greek wikipedia? I was just writing a note to them. There is NO neuter μύρρο with 2 ρρ. And they should write 'σμύρνα' as head of article. sarri.greek (talk) 11:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek We might not like it, but dictionaries follow the language as she is spoken (rather than the other way round). Google gives 12.000+ μύρρο, many of them modern. If people start misspelling eventually we follow, else the English would all be speaking as we do, but our doctionaries would only contain Anglo Saxon (or even PIE :). — Saltmarsh. 11:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Ι see, I get 2.860 but it is a neuter misconstruction of the ancient feminine. It should be noted, then, that it is a frequent misonstruction. It is probably the fault of Βικιπαίδεια, which was probably copied again and again by people. sarri.greek (talk) 12:05, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

2nd ConjugationEdit

Dear Salt. Taking a break from 1st conjugation to check 2nd.Conjugation -άω/ώ verbs which I have neglected completely. I have a few questions about 2ndConjug.Class1. I'm afraid, too many questions.

These very very repetitive explanations, at 2ndConjugation Class1:

  • 2) the explanation of the nuance of the two variant endings is given at Alternative forms. Are they interchangeable or not: My notes on the precedence of -άω.
  • 2b) Do you agree on adding the conjugation at the -άω forms (like Iordanidou does?). Unless, ofcourse the -ώ ending takes precedence (very few exceptions).
  • 3) I am troubled by the repetitiveness of the Etymology of -άω explanation: e.g.
    «With ending -άω to γελώ (geló) in the pattern of 3rd person -άει. From {inh|el|grc|γελῶ}, contracted form of γελάω (geláō)
    This would be repeated in some hundreds of verbs. Does it make sense? Does it need rephrasing? Are the linguistic terms ok? It is NOT contracted/uncontracted like the ancient verbs. It is a re... re... redoing of the ending. Could we show it to friends and readers before I make the mistake of copying it here and there? Perhaps to Mahagaja who has been so helpful with the connection of ancient/modern verbs?

Thank you!
PS May I add p-past and ppp at el-verb? :) As I go? I promise I will not do very long headwordlines!! sarri.greek (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Good morning @Sarri.greek!
* 1/ That seems to work very well.
* 1a/ I think both forms -άω & -ώ should be catalogued together (in '…αγαπάω'), I don't think the doubling matters - after all there are two forms.
* 1c/ That looks good !
* 2/ Your notes are clear/good - was it your intention to write them up in Appendix:Greek verbs? I wish I had come to Greek when I was younger - very little of this sticks in my head now.
* 2b/ This looks the best way of doing things.
* 3/ repeatedness: I'm not really sure what concverns you, BUT there is no reason why a template (with suitable parameters) cannot be used for repeated text - anywhere!.
Saltmarsh. 06:30, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Thank you boss. I've done for 1st conjug. and I will do & -άω.Modern so that the etymology will not be repeated. But i had to do some -ω nouns en route (I hope i did not upset too much the templates). After doing some verbs, I will add a small note at the Appendix (very few words). sarri.greek (talk) 08:10, 13 February 2020 (UTC)


Full forms for Template:el-verb (+passive past and +ppp) I tried here a simple version +p.past+ppp. I have this obsession with full forms of the verb, being influenced by your super panoramic tables. I promise never to make too many forms and never to wrap the HWL!!! If ppp is going to be added, i promise to create their pages too.
Speaking of ppp, could we have a |type=ppp giving Category:Greek passive perfect participles at Template:el-part as well? -- Sarri.greek  | 19:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek that looks excellent, you hardly need my imprimatur! and a ppp category seems essential. Thank you so much for doing the work. — Saltmarsh. 05:30, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
O! Thank you, thank you. I'll start work tomorrow! Kαλή εβδομάδα ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 23:00, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Thank you so much for ploughing through those participles! — Saltmarsh. 07:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Passive perfects in active tablesEdit

I was looking active-only verbs like καθίζω. The passive participle is very frequent. And there is a passive perfect tense of the 2nd type: (είμαι, είσαι.... -μένος) which is quite common.
The space in that section is ample. I did a little test only for the first row

How do you feel about it? ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 17:53, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek - It sounds OK - I suggest that you try it out, you can always revert it if you dont like the result. — Saltmarsh. 06:21, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh, Hello! I have done it at Template:el-conjug-table-act (with no borders between the two, since passive voice does not exist in this table) and updated all the -act Templates. Be safe! ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 09:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


Dear Salt! this is my 5th day indoors. How are you doing? I hope you are all OK!
Trying to fix some things at el.wikt, and I am coming bach soon. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 21:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

We had a pub lunch yesterday, but no more until - well for some weeks at least. There is certainly lots to do in el.wikt. — Saltmarsh. 06:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)


Hello boss! I hope you keeping safe. I am thinking of you, your family. Knowing that it is difficulat not to see them... For me the quarantine is easier. My love to F. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 19:31, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Sarri.greek - I've been meaning to email you and will tomorrow! — Saltmarsh. 19:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


The excellent work of Georgakas, ended somewhere in the middle of letter β. Online, we have only Letter A. He incorporates many many forms which are outside Strandard Modern Greek: idiomatic, demotic, from literature, obsolete, dated etc. Practically, everything that has been written. Some of these forms are extremely rare.

About *-ένω verb endings, a highly irregular, dated and deprecated spelling of -αίνω. Like ανοστένω, mentioned at

  • ανοσταίνω - Georgakas, Demetrius J. A Modern Greek-English Dictionary, Letter 'A' at the "Centre for the Greek Language"

I have not studied the subject, it is too complicated. In Standard Koine, they are NEVER written this way.
Perhaps it would be a good idea, for rare spellings or rare words, to add the source {{R:Georgakas}}, especially when the word does not appear at {{R:DSMG}} or {{R:Babiniotis 2002}}. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 12:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

PS Also see αποσταίνω. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 12:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Happy summerEdit

Happy summer boss!! I am -sort of- away too, I am a little sick and have various examinations at hospital but they cannot find anything. I loved your καφενόβιος!! It is an adjective like πλούσιος but without degrees {{el-decl-adj|dec=ος-α-ο|stem=καφενόβι|nopio-1}}. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 15:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)