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User talk:Mahagaja

Holz - Derivative termsEdit

Hello Mahagaja. You deleted the Related terms section of the entry Holz moving all the compound terms back into the Derived terms list leaving a message that these all look like derived terms to you.

Well, this is what I thought quite a long time as well until I recenly discovered that compounds are not considered to be derivations:

Looking up Derived terms at Wiktionary:Entry layout I was told that Derived terms should contain a list of words that are morphological derivatives. This article (Morphological derivation) in Wikipedia however clearly states that compounds are not considered to be derivations:

Derivation can be contrasted with other types of word formation such as compounding. For full details see Word formation.
Note that derivational affixes are bound morphemes – they are meaningful units, but can only normally occur when attached to another word. 
In that respect, derivation differs from compounding by which free morphemes are combined (lawsuit, Latin professor). 
It also differs from inflection in that inflection does not create new lexemes but new word forms (table → tables; open → opened).

These rules also apply for German compounds: Derivation_(Linguistik)

Die Derivation unterscheidet sich von der Zusammensetzung (Komposition) dadurch, dass bei letzterer mindestens zwei Wörter (Grundmorpheme) eine eigenständige lexikalische Bedeutung besitzen, während bei der Derivation nur ein Wort existiert, dessen Anhängsel (Affixe) keine konkrete (jedoch eine abstrakte) lexikalische Bedeutung haben.
Beispiel eines Derivats: Frei-heit → frei ist Lexem (Adjektiv), heit besitzt abstrakte lexikalische Bedeutung, nämlich einen Seins-Zustand. Gesamtwort: Substantiv
Beispiel eines Kompositums: Haus-wand → Haus ist Lexem (Substantiv), Wand ist Lexem (Substantiv). Gesamtwort: Substantiv

W:EL also says that all words which have strong etymological connections but aren’t derived terms should be listed under Related terms. For this reason, I have moved all compounds containing the term Holz into a newly created list of related terms leaving all those terms in the derivation list where I felt a bit uncertain about.

But since it is not the first time someone reverted my derivation edits I'm hoping to get with this some clarification on that subject. ;).-- 22:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I think notwithstanding all the above the established practice at Wiktionary is to include compounds under Derived terms. At any rate, this is an issue that affects the entire dictionary and so should be discussed at the Beer parlor, not my talk page. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 22:32, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
We should indeed discuss this in the BP because the claim that compounds are not derived is both ridiculous and does indeed contravene common practice on en.Wikt. This is honestly the first I've heard of this. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 23:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja. Yes, it it the established practice to include compounds under Derived terms and I did it myself until recently. But since I read this (Derived terms) I am a bit confused, as it seems contradictory to the practice. I think, your proposal to move this discussion to the Beer Parlor is the best thing to do.-- 23:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


Hey. You're not an admin, right? If not, wanna be nominated for adminship? --Gente como tú (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Gente como tú: Actually, I've been an admin since 2011, but thanks for thinking of me! —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:34, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Ooh, a name change. --Gente como tú (talk) 15:08, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Irish thingsEdit

1. Sorry I haven't done anything with the adjective templates yet (aside from edit them before realizing that they're the ones we're trying get rid of); I was busy for a while, and it kinda fell by the wayside. Since doing it manually would not be fun, to say the least, I still think we should have a bot do it, even if it would be a very complicated procedure.

2. Are you sure about the /ə/ in i mbliana? I looked here, and it seems that i is generally pronounced /ɪ/ and not /ə/. Esszet (talk) 19:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Esszet: All the dialect descriptions I can find transcribe i as [ə]. For i mbliana specifically, see e.g. s:A Dialect of Donegal/The Consonants#237 (Ulster), s:de:Die araner mundart/Wörterbuch/b#46 (Connacht), and s:fr:Description d’un parler irlandais de Kerry/3-4#p88 (Munster). —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
That's strange, the book that website is based on was written by a lecturer at Dublin City University, and other sources, such as this and this, indicate that it's /ɪ/ as well. Esszet (talk) 21:52, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
It may simply be a matter of interpretation. I doubt /ɪ/ and /ə/ contrast in Irish anyway. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I don’t know, the difference sounds pretty clear to me, check those audio files again. Esszet (talk) 16:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Did you see this? Esszet (talk) 14:06, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but I don't see what more there is to say. Different sources say different things, but I'm still not convinced that they actually mean different things. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 14:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
That's why I said you can check those audio files, and if you want, I can take this to a forum and get opinions from a bunch of different people. Esszet (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I listened to the audio files and find them inconclusive, and I can only hear them with native English-speaking ears, not with native Irish-speaking ears. Frankly, I put more faith in the opinions of trained linguists like Sjoestedt, Finck, and Quiggin, who worked with native speakers, than in audio files recorded by people who may well not be native speakers. At any rate, if you want to add a second pronunciation with /ɪ/ I won't revert you, but at least keep the sourced pronunciation with /ə/. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:29, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
1) Check those sources you gave me again; they all indicate some sort of distinction between /ɪ/ and /ə/. 2) All 3 of the speakers on the Fuaimeanna site are native speakers (go to the "The Speakers" page). 3) Maybe it is just a matter of interpretation; I guess we should leave both in for now. Esszet (talk) 16:33, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry ...Edit

... for accidentally rollbacking your edit. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:45, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

No problem! —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:47, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Apostrophes in French and BelarusianEdit

Could we make the curly apostrophe (U+2019 and U+02BC) the standard in French and Belarusian entry titles? I don't see any good reason to keep the straight apostrophe as the standard.

--Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:16, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it makes any sense at all to have different standard apostrophes for different languages. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 08:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
But what if different languages do have different standards? Or is U+0027 never used as an official character anywhere? (This is not a rhetorical question.)
If we made the curly apostrophe the standard for every language, would you support it? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:43, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I would be astonished if any language anywhere on the planet had defined an official apostrophe character (punctuation apostrophe, I mean, not the letter apostrophe, which could well be officially defined). I wouldn't be opposed to standardizing on ’ instead of ' throughout Wiktionary, but I do think it's a waste of time and energy. They are semantically equivalent everywhere. Writing "j'ai" isn't wrong in French, and writing "I’ve" isn't wrong in English. I think we should spend our Wiktionary time improving the actual content of the dictionary instead of worrying about something as trivial as what apostrophe to use. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 10:50, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I guess you're right. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
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