Template talk:ka-verb

At this point, the template is useless: in Georgian there are verb forms and verbal nouns. So lets delete this.--Dixtosa 15:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Georgian doesn't have any verbs then? Mglovesfun (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

It depends on what you call verb. I guess XX-verb series of templates are used for infinitives. But usually Georgian infinitives are called verbal nouns (as they have either noun and verb properties). And because verbal nouns and verb differ greatly, It would be not be a good idea to name the verbal nouns verb.--Dixtosa 15:36, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

In Latin there aren't infinitives as well, but we have la-verb. As I can see აბარგება is not declinable (as a noun) but conjugable, so it is a verb. Maro 20:47, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

lets continue discussion on the Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others--Dixtosa 17:48, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Deletion debate

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Template:ka-verb

As in almost all languages, in Georgian there are verb forms and smth. like infinitves too. The most close concept to infinitive is verbal noun. And because there is a evidently big distinction between verbs and verbal nouns(they have noun properties too). We should use {{ka-verbal noun}} and not {{ka-verb}}--Dixtosa 19:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

So, what should happen to Category:Georgian verbs, deletion too? Because if not deleted, we could switch all the {{ka-verb}} to {{head|ka|verb}} and then delete ka-verb, but the category Georgian verbs would still exists with the same content. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

@Maro, i looked through the wrods that use the la-verb template, and how it seems, though it is used for verb forms, they are forms on which the paradigm is built. And it is verbal noun that is used for building conjugation paradigm. Also, აბარგება is truly declinable.

@mglovesfun, if we conclude with its deletion, yes category will not be necessary any more, so i will move all of the content of category:Georgian verbs to the place we decide. --Dixtosa 18:24, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Just to be sure I understand this: Georgian has no verbs, only verbal nouns? If it has verbs, or even a Category: Georgian verb forms, those should presumably be in Category:Georgian verbs. - -sche (discuss) 17:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Georgian has verbs (it would be a linguistic coup if a language were discovered that didn't), and those verbs have finite forms in addition to the verbal noun. I believe what Dixtosa is saying is that the lemma form of Georgian verbs in the verbal noun, which is true of Welsh verbs as well. I'd say "verb" is such a basic category we don't want to delete it for any language, even languages where what the forms are listed under is a fully declinable (verbal) noun. —Angr 18:01, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

As one philosopher adviced, lets first agree about the terms :D. A definiton for verb here is too broad. Moreover incorrect: words indicating actions include nouns (e.g. establishment), it also inlude verb forms. So lets make local definiton :D, so, wiktionarians think of verbs as what?. btw, I didnt say Georgian doesnt have verbs, it does have cuz verbal noun is somewhat subcategory of verbs (according to the definition provided here). So are you guys suggesting that we use verb instead of verbal noun?. OK, no problem. but I think it s more convenient to also indicate in the name of category that verb isnt just an ordinary verb.--Dixtosa 20:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Would it be helpful to put the verbal nouns in both categories, Category:Georgian verbal nouns and Category:Georgian verbs? If not, my original suggestion was simply: put the verbal nouns in Category:Georgian verbal nouns, but put Category:Georgian verbal nouns (and Category:Georgian verb forms) into Category:Georgian verbs. (Category:Georgian verbal nouns could also be put in Category:Georgian nouns, if necessary.) - -sche (discuss) 20:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

@Dixtosa if you're not suggesting that Georgian doesn't have verbs, why delete Category:Georgian verbs? Mglovesfun (talk) 21:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

@-sche, as for you question: we can not have both verbs and verbal nouns separately. as for your original advice, it seems good. But then, what is verb for Georgian?

@Mglovesfun, same problem. All is about terms: what is verb for Georgian?--Dixtosa 10:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know! It doesn't matter whether I know what a Georgian verb is or not, just whether Georgian has verbs. For clarity's sake, are you proposing dividing Georgian verbs into Georgian verbal nouns and Georgian verb forms? If so, I would neither support nor object to it. FWIW Category:Georgian verbs would still be a parent category for both of those categories, but could contain no actual entries (Category:Georgian parts of speech as an example, doesn't contain any). Is that what you're proposing? Mglovesfun (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No, bcz, initially, I was talking about the template :D. The way out you and sche are saying is truly acceptable. But i was proposing a deletion of ka-verb because it had(have & will probably have) not usage --Dixtosa 18:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, I know what you're against but I don't know what you're for! If {{ka-verb}} gets deleted, it will leave a lot of red links in Georgian entries. So what do we do with these entries? Mglovesfun (talk) 22:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I clearly stated of what opinion I was : ). We should use {{ka-verbal noun}} and not {{ka-verb}} either by deleting it and making ka-verbal noun or renaming.--Dixtosa 19:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The infinitive in Dutch and German is also a verbal noun... but there still are {{nl-verb}} and {{de-verb}}. —CodeCat 19:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

As it seems, Georgian and German verbs arent such alike. --Dixtosa 16:52, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Keep. No reason to delete it. Georgian HAS verbs. No matter what is the main form of the verb, infinitive, verbal noun or first person singular present. Verb is a part of speech, and verbal noun is a form. Maro 16:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Then I ask you, where/how and for which words should we use this template?

Folks, the case is too easy: here we have three things(verb forms, verbal noun, verb) regarding verbs, but in Georgian we have two: verb forms and something, which I and most linguists tend to call verbal noun (Georgian: სახელზმნა). Therefore we have to either delete one of them or unite two of them into one(by redirecting). Where did i make thinko?:D--Dixtosa 16:52, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

You see, that I don't oppose. It would seem more reasonable to move this to {{ka-verbal noun}} and modify its contents accordingly. But as above, I don't support it either, as I speak no Georgian. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:12, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• Keep. "Verb" is a cover term for the verbal noun and all the inflected forms. Just because the lemma form of Georgian verbs is the verbal noun, that's no reason to move {{ka-verb}} to {{ka-verbal noun}}, any more than we would move {{de-verb}} to {{de-infinitive}} just because sehen is an infinitive or {{la-verb}} to {{la-1st person singular present active indicative}} just because videō is a 1st person singular present active indicative. Georgian is not an unusual case here. —Angr 20:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

OK guys you are partially right, so ka-verb remains. but now we gotta determine when to use. Now I suggest 2 new things:

1. that we designate third-person singualar forms as a lemma.
2. that we use ka-verb for lemmas (assuming verbal noun isn't a lemma). <- This is the principle Georgian explanatory dictionary(the most influental one, btw) is based on. --Dixtosa 15:07, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I should move newly-emerged problem to anoter place?. to beer parlour? --Dixtosa 11:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)