User talk:CodeCat

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Script recognition module801:35, 28 July 2016
iuxta321:19, 27 July 2016
MewBot is acting odd405:19, 27 July 2016
Template:lb-conj-regular201:44, 25 July 2016
Finnish nominative plurals321:57, 21 July 2016
Translation request019:56, 20 July 2016
Edit at niveau400:52, 17 July 2016
Your rollback was in error.218:25, 16 July 2016
etyl -> cog exceptions013:07, 15 July 2016
Template:es-conj-eer102:04, 14 July 2016
Why did you revert another one of my edits?009:36, 11 July 2016
*klengan - to sound217:49, 8 July 2016
Several errors017:41, 7 July 2016
Problem in the category.914:27, 7 July 2016
...503:41, 6 July 2016
se templates with module errors220:00, 29 June 2016
Etymology languages' parents120:14, 28 June 2016
Irish verb forms114:56, 28 June 2016
Template fur-noun021:11, 26 June 2016
Proto-Finnic *rr220:31, 26 June 2016
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Script recognition module

Do we have any module that recognizes the script of characters? Given "J", it would return "Latn". Given "Δ", it would return Grek.

I noticed that {{l|sh|во̀да}} (во̀да) is correctly labelled as Cyrl and {{l|sh|vòda}} (vòda) as Latn, without using the "sc=" parameter.

--Daniel Carrero (talk)21:04, 27 July 2016

That would be Module:scripts. Specifically the findBestScript function.

CodeCat21:06, 27 July 2016

Thank you.

--Daniel Carrero (talk)21:07, 27 July 2016

I would like if {{auto cat}} (or {{charactercat}} or whatever template), when used in Category:Bb, automatically recognized that "Bb" is in Latin script. For example, it could be categorized into "Category:Latin script something", it could have "Latin script" in the description and the "Bb" in the description would have the right script label in the code.

Likewise, Category:Δδ can be created for Greek script.

And Category:Bb: ⠃ (Latin–Braille) already exists. The category name has a mixture of scripts, but the module is already prepared to recognize the different contents before and after the colon.

But findBestScript requires a language code and the categories mentioned are multi-language categories. Can't we change the module so that it iterates over all scripts, when the language is und or something?

--Daniel Carrero (talk)00:13, 28 July 2016

That can work, but what about cases like Latn vs Latinx? A language would never have both as its script, but if it blindly goes over all the scripts, it's different.

CodeCat00:34, 28 July 2016

You're right. A letter like "C" is probably both Latn and Latinx. The same problem probably would happen with pa-Arab, ota-Arab, etc. if we had similar categories for the Arabic script.

Maybe it's not feasible, but can findBestScript iterate over all scripts, but give priority for 4-letter scripts? If it finds something in Latn or Arab, it stops the search and does not iterate over Latinx and fa-Arab.

Or maybe just give priority to Latn over Latinx and forget Arab and the others unless they become a problem at some point.

--Daniel Carrero (talk)00:46, 28 July 2016
  1. "{{R:Gaffiot}}" is incorrect. It's "{{R:Gaffiot|1=juxta|2=juxta}}" and that's not baldy formatted.
  2. Different dictionaries give different lengths for the vowel u, and it's not a matter of time like old dictionaries giving one length and modern dictionaries giving another length. One could use something like "{{la-adv|iūxtā or iuxtā||-}}" but that looks more ugly.

So please feel free to further improve the entry, but your revert is no improvement. The reference link then is wrong and the vowel length is somewhat incorrect or biased, unneutral (maybe see WT:NPOV). -Poskim (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

15:45, 27 July 2016

From what sources do you derive the ū?

JohnC516:05, 27 July 2016
@CodeCat: Regarding your comment "Badly formatted, again":
Well, you first simply stated "Badly formatted". You never told me why you thought it was badly formatted and back then you didn't format it in another way or told me how to format it in a better way. Now you changed it, thanks. But in my defence, the template Template:la-adv does not mention the parameter "|head2=". Well, Template:R:Gaffiot does not mention any parameters too (though luckily there is Template:R:L&S), but you can't expect that other users guess correct parameters when the documentation is missing, incomplete or even incorrect.
@JohnC5‎: There are Pons, Georges, "FriezeDennisonVergil" and "Lewis", maybe Stowasser (cf. de:iuxta which earlier just had "iūxtā" and "Der kleine Stowasser" as reference). "Lewis" maybe got replaced by Lewis and Short and I don't know good "FriezeDennisonVergil" is, but Georges, Pons and Stowasser are quite famous names. Also Georges, Pons and Stowasser are younger than Lewis and Shorts, so they could be more correct. However, there are also modern dictionaries which have a short u (namely Langenscheidt's small pocket dictionary).
-Poskim (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
16:19, 27 July 2016

FWIW, etymologically it looks like ū should be expected but French joste indicates that at least in Proto-Romance it was (probably) short (not necessarily in Classical Latin, cf. French annoncer < ad + nūntiāre with long ū). Also, some modern dictionaries appear to leave out long marks before two consonants so the short u in Langenscheidt might not be probative.

Benwing2 (talk)21:19, 27 July 2016

MewBot is acting odd

This happened, the bot seems to be removing the past participle and past singular forms from the nl-verb headword line template (also on other entries)? Not sure if intended, thought you should be aware!

Kleio (t · c)23:21, 26 July 2016

No, that's intended. Since the inflection table already shows these forms even when collapsed, showing them also in the headword line is redundant.

CodeCat23:23, 26 July 2016

That makes sense -- but then I think there ought to be some kind of parameter to set in the nl-verb template so it doesn't show the [please provide] text in the headword line, now it just ends up looking incomplete.

Kleio (t · c)23:29, 26 July 2016

I'll remove that once the bot is done.

CodeCat23:30, 26 July 2016

In case you have Greek terms in your sights - forms are shown in the HWL that appear in Greek dictionaries (eg the feminine & neuter forms of adjectives). In most cases they tell you all you need in order to 'get' the paradigm. When viewed on a computer these forms may be superfluous, but when viewed on a mobile telephone they make it unnecessary to view the whole table which with some terms may exceed screen width. I would request that the HWL are not changed.

Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk05:19, 27 July 2016

This template has been showing a module error for almost two weeks now, due to your completely reworking it, but not updating the documentation (though I suppose the unused parameter might predate that).

Consider yourself nagged...

Chuck Entz (talk)22:07, 24 July 2016

Yes, the documentation was wrong, but it's only showing up now. I was hoping one of the Luxembourgish editors would notice.

CodeCat23:44, 24 July 2016

Is that better?

JohnC501:44, 25 July 2016

Finnish nominative plurals

Hello. Please pardon me if I use this advanced discussion widget incorrectly, I've never seen it before.

You left a note on my user talk page a few weeks ago about Finnish nominative plurals, saying that I should specify nominative plural instead of just formatting it as plural of ___. I'd just like to point out that not only does the whole rest of English Wiktionary already have the convention of just "plural of..." instead of "nominative plural form of...", but the actual Finnish Wiktionary also has the same convention. (see and for a couple of examples)

This might be because Finnish Wiktionary doesn't really have separate dictionary entries for fancier conjugations like genitive plural, etc. and in turn this is surely where the convention on English Wiktionary came from. If you feel the convention from "plural" to "nominative plural" is worth changing, that would be a job for a bot, because it would be basically every noun and adjective in the books that needs updated. Otherwise I don't see any point in going against the flow manually. Even very basic and age-old entries like vedet and luut are just "plural of...".

Sylvanmoon (talk)14:41, 21 July 2016

Yes, I do think it should be changed, but if you are unsure you can bring it up at the Beer Parlour.

CodeCat14:52, 21 July 2016

I think "nominative plural" is far better than "plural" because every Finnish noun has fourteen different plurals. Don't worry about the old entries. Just make sure that the new ones are good.

Hekaheka (talk)21:36, 21 July 2016

Sounds good. Will do.

Sylvanmoon (talk)21:57, 21 July 2016

Translation request

Hi. Could you please translate this passage for me from en->nl?

"Hi. I am an 18-year-old bisexual girl looking for a sweet, older girl to talk to. I do not speak Dutch, but I'd like to learn the language. I am from the United States."

(I wouldn't ask what this is for though lol)

Philmonte101 (talk)19:55, 20 July 2016

I'm not going to do an undo on an admin. First, I must ask, why did you delete n from the derived terms? I feel it can help users understand the noun's gender before they even get there.

Philmonte101 (talk)21:10, 16 July 2016

We don't include grammatical information about terms in links to those terms. We don't include plurals or other inflected forms, noun cases, etc. So we shouldn't include gender either.

CodeCat21:12, 16 July 2016

Even if you were going to include gender, the term linked to is the type of compound that would get its gender from niveau, so the addition is more clutter than anything else.

On general priciples, the more information you add about an entry in other entries, the greater the likelihood that some of that information will be changed in the main entry and the other entries will be out of sync. Maintaining that kind of distributed information in a wiki is a nightmare that should be avoided whenever possible.

Chuck Entz (talk)22:18, 16 July 2016

I do wonder why {{l}} has a gender parameter though, if there really is a wider consensus to not add it.

CodeCat22:19, 16 July 2016

In some cases where there are homographs with different genders, it might be useful. My remarks were more general advice than expression of consensus (combined with a bit of grumpiness, I have to admit).

Chuck Entz (talk)00:52, 17 July 2016

Your rollback was in error.

User:NativeCat (was) my account. I suppose you did that because I did this from another account instead of that one, so I'll go ahead and log into that account and do the same thing with that one.

Philmonte101 (talk)17:55, 16 July 2016

Yes, I did, editors editing other people's user pages is frowned upon. Why the new account, though? Could you not have renamed the old one?

CodeCat18:06, 16 July 2016

I create new accounts a lot. Sometimes you feel like you just want to start over, right, especially after not being here for a while? Idk

Philmonte101 (talk)18:25, 16 July 2016

etyl -> cog exceptions

Hi CodeCat, thanks for your changes on etyl/cog. I didn't realise I had been a pretty regular abuser of that template. Is there a way you can revert or leave alone those involving etymologies where one word derives from two? For example, heraus derives from a two word phrase in MHG, and it is incorrect to treat MHG her as the cognate, as here: heraus-diff. I'm not sure how widespread this problem is. Thanks,

Isomorphyc (talk)13:07, 15 July 2016

Hi Cat. Please can you look at Template:es-conj-eer and make it show the past participle forms correctly - on proveer the past participle forms should be provista, provistas, provistos. I can't figure out the template. Cheers, mate

Turnedlessef (talk)19:36, 12 July 2016

Those templates are junky and should be rewritten in Lua probably. The support for pp= is quite broken; it puts the same pp form in all numbers and genders.

Benwing2 (talk)02:04, 14 July 2016

Why did you revert another one of my edits?

What is your objection against me adding a relevant picture to a Proto-Germanic article of a mother and a baby with Germanic used as a caption?, 10 July 2016

*klengan - to sound

Edited by 2 users.
Last edit: 17:49, 8 July 2016

Hi CodeCat! I wanted to start an entry for the Proto-Germanic root *klengan and as I see are the most derivative verbs in strong verb class 3, but the reconstructed root *klengan does not end with -aną like all the other Proto-Germanic verbs in strong verb class 3. What do you think?

Here is a table of derivatives:

lang term(s)
Proto-Germanic *klengan, *klennjan, *klennan? (< *glengʰ- < *kel-)
Old Frisian klinga, klinna (3a)
frs klinga (3a)
North Frisian klinke (3a)
Old Saxon klinke (strong and weak)
Middle Dutch clingen, klingen, clinghen, clinken
Dutch klinken
English clink, clinker
Old English clynnan (weak)
Old High German klingan (3a)
Middle High German klingen (strong)
Middle Low German klingen
German klingen (3a)
Old Norse klingja (weak)
Icelandic klingja
Danish klinge (< klingen?)
Bigbossfarin (talk)15:12, 22 December 2014

e becomes i when followed by a nasal and another consonant, so *kleng- is not a possible root syllable in Proto-Germanic, it would be *kling-.

I can't say much about the verb type. According to the Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands, this is in origin an onomatopoeic word, so it's not surprising that there are many kinds of derivation. What's more, the verb looks like it should be strong class 3, based purely on its shape/sound. So this could have actually caused it to become strong if it wasn't already. This means that the fact that many descendants are strong class 3 does not necessarily mean that the original verb was too.

There are also several verbs in your list which cannot be descendants of this. Those are the forms with -k- instead of -g-, which must come from a separate related verb with -k-. Furthermore, Old English clynnan, and probably also Old Frisian klinna (if it's the same verb) must derive from a different verb too, something like *klunjaną or *klunnijaną. Old Saxon klinke is not even a verb, as Old Saxon verbs always end in -an or -on.

CodeCat15:23, 22 December 2014

Thank you for your help, I think it is not possible in this case to determine if the words were originated by onomatopoeia or derived from Proto-Germanic. Further Ancient Greek klángē, Latin clangere and French clinquer seem to be similar too. ([1]) But I dispute a derivation of the PIE-Root *kel- (as in [2][3]). The special case that -k- appears instead of -g- is also mentioned here as "mit abweichender, wohl expressiver Konsonanz im Inlaut", but I do not know how plausible this is. Old English clynnan and Old Frisian klinna were designed to derive from *klennjan ([4]) and an Old Saxon klinke does not exist.

So as I see it seems to be really difficult to say here what derives from where so I would oppose to create an entry on the Proto-Germanic term at all.

Bigbossfarin (talk)22:17, 22 December 2014

Several errors

Hey, ik weet niet hoe, maar deze edit heeft voor meerdere foutmeldingen gezorgd op de pagina eat. Ik kan zo snel het exacte probleem niet echt zien.

Prinsgezinde (talk)17:41, 7 July 2016

Problem in the category.

Category:Cities in The Bahamas I don't know what happened.

KoreanQuoter (talk)14:06, 7 July 2016

The category hasn't been defined yet in the data modules.

CodeCat14:07, 7 July 2016

The Module:category_tree/topic_cat/data/Place_names_old has "cities in the Bahamas".

KoreanQuoter (talk)14:11, 7 July 2016

With a lowercase T yes.

CodeCat14:12, 7 July 2016

I don't think I can fix this. I'm sort of confused right now.

KoreanQuoter (talk)14:16, 7 July 2016

You have to get the casing of the category right too. You spelled your category as "The Bahamas" but the category is defined in the module as "the Bahamas".

CodeCat14:16, 7 July 2016

Wtf bro? Are you saying we shouldn't call those terms inherited from PIE? They weren't borrowed, and "derived" doesn't distinguish enough between different paths of transmission. Clearly, when one wants to search for a list of words in a modern language inherited from PIE, these kinds of words should be on there. Sure we might not know the entire or exact route it took from Indo-European to Latin, but come on. Should we only use inh when we have an actual reconstructed term as opposed to just a root? I use inh when it comes from the same kind of word/part of speech in PIE, with a more or less continuous meaning over time.

Word dewd544 (talk)01:57, 5 July 2016

I'm not a bro, for starters.

They may have been inherited from PIE, maybe not. The documentation of {{inh}} states that derivation from a root should never be considered inheritance, but rather just derivation. The reason is that roots aren't words; they are the basis for many words, rather than just one. You can think of them as similar to prefixes and suffixes. For a word to be considered inherited from another, it must have existed as the same word in the parent language. For this reason, hound is not considered inherited from *ḱwṓ. The reason is that the English word, like its Germanic ancestor *hundaz, contains an extra -d- that was not present in the PIE word, and thus reflects a different word.

That said, in this particular case, De Vaan reconstructs an actual PIE word for this Latin verb, namely a verb *bʰérweti which is derived (not inherited!) from the root given in the entries. That verb would have led to a 3rd conjugation verb fervō, which is actually attested in Old Latin. At some point, the 3rd conjugation inflection was replaced by 2nd conjugation inflection. De Vaan says that the older verb fell out of use around the time of Vergilius, but the newer one introduced already in the time of Plautus (and inferveō is already found in Cato). So the replacement was gradual, taking a few centuries. I don't know if these should be considered separate verbs or not, and therefore whether ferveō is derived or inherited from fervō.

CodeCat12:36, 5 July 2016

Fair enough, sir. You make a good point.

Word dewd544 (talk)02:00, 6 July 2016

Word dew544, you said "bro" and then "sir", but CodeCat is a woman.

--Daniel Carrero (talk)02:03, 6 July 2016

CodeCat is female, as you seem to have missed from her response.

JohnC502:03, 6 July 2016

Oh, wow. My apologies. I didn't know that. I thought she just meant she's not like a college-aged dude and prefers being addressed in a more serious way. For some reason I always pictured Code Cat as male. Never actually read deep into her profile. My bad.

Word dewd544 (talk)03:40, 6 July 2016

se templates with module errors

Since you seem to have nothing else to do ;-), you might want to fix these- they've been in CAT:E for almost a week now. And while you're at it, could you take a look at Template:pl-decl-noun-irreg? The last person who worked on it has no clue about allowing for the template page in the module. Thanks!

Chuck Entz (talk)14:02, 28 June 2016

I haven't forgotten about them, they'll be fixed eventually.

CodeCat14:56, 28 June 2016


CodeCat20:00, 29 June 2016

Etymology languages' parents

CodeCat, you edited Module:etymology and said: "Etymology languages' parents are always languages (or another etymology language! See the data module!) but never families"

This edit broke a few entries that were just fine before:

  • Pérgamo -> contains the code "pregrc" (parent: "qfa-sub" = substrate)
  • balsa -> contains the code "und-ibe" (parent: "qfa-sub" as above)
  • zarza -> contains the code "und-ibe"
  • zurrapa -> contains the code "und-ibe"
  • ܚܡܘܪܬܐ -> contains the code "MIr." (parent: "ira" = Iranian family)
  • पुस्तक -> contains the code "MIr."
--Daniel Carrero (talk)19:39, 28 June 2016

Hmm that's quite strange. So apparently these aren't really languages, but they also don't form a subset of another language like etymology languages normally do. They're like half-languages in limbo.

CodeCat20:14, 28 June 2016

Irish verb forms

Would MewBot be interested in creating entries for Irish verb forms generated by the Irish verb inflection-table templates?

Aɴɢʀ (talk)14:17, 28 June 2016

Not at the moment.

CodeCat14:56, 28 June 2016

Template fur-noun

Hi, I was watching this template "fur-noun" concerning the writing form of Friulian nouns and their plural. There is surely a mistake when this plural form takes the final -s, first because in Italian no final -s is required in the plural, then also because often the plural form in dialectal nouns remains unchanged, or in the feminine gender, takes different endings. Best regards,

Better, see this link: , where we can see (I'm Emilian and therefore not expert in Friulian language, sorry...) that plural forms can end both in -s, or in -j or in -i. Thank you,
Glo (talk)07:23, 26 June 2016

Proto-Finnic *rr

Your inflection module seems to produce past participles like *surrut for verbs like *sure-, similarly essives like *noorra for nominals like *noori. This is incorrect — *rn > rr was a post-PF analogical generalization (probably mainly based on roots showing the sound changes *ln > *ll and *sn > *ss). Retained forms include e.g. Estonian surnud, older Finnish nuorna, and all cases with *-rn- as a part of the root (such as *kaarna > Fi. kaarna).

Tropylium (talk)18:36, 26 June 2016


CodeCat18:47, 26 June 2016

Thank you!

Tropylium (talk)20:31, 26 June 2016
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