GKØN440

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! -- Apisite (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

aapí'si

Is apí'siwa a non-lemma form of "aapí'si" here? -- Apisite (talk) 05:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

So the guy who made the page (probably some bot) put "api'siwa" instead of "aapí'si"; "api'siwa" was not referenced so I replaced it... I probably should have just created a new page lol but there you go... GKØN440 (talk) 14:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Orexan I'm letting you know, Orexan, about the beginner wiki-editor. --Apisite (talk) 21:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Consider me let-known! But what do you mean by it? The AjaxEdit or something? Orexan (talk) 21:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Orexan User GKØN440 says, that he (or she) has a reference work that says that the Blackfoot lemma for coyote is "aapí'si" rather than "apí'siwa" or something along that line. --Apisite (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Style

Please familiarise yourself with the templates we use (use e.g. kwíłto as a model, the language code for Blackfoot is bla). I'd appreciate it if you could fix all the entries you've created and slow down a bit to understand the wikicode and how to apply it for Blackfoot. It might also be a good idea to start thinking about language-specific templates (cf. {{crk-noun}}, {{wiy-noun}} and similar). Please, please do approach me if you have any questions, I'll be more than happy to help. Thadh (talk) 21:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi yes I've been rushing these entries and haven't been paying attention to detail... What exactly must be added? Pronounciation? Etymology? There is extremely limited information I have on the origin of Blackfoot words so it will be close to impossible. Blackfoot is a 'Definitely Endangered' language, so concrete and reliable information is scarce. GKON (talk) 21:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

No, nothing of the sort. See the changes I've made to aan: Headword should be confined into a headword template ({{head}}, or a language-specific one, which I recommend creating for Blackfoot), usage examples should be given in {{uxi}} or {{ux}} templates, and it'd be a good idea to create a reference template (something like {{R:esu:Jacobson:2012}}, cf. its usage at tengssuun) for the dictionary you're using as a source. Thadh (talk) 21:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Ahh yes I see the changes. I apologize, I started editing on here yesterday and am already feeling stupid lol... I'll look into a language-specific template... GKON (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Thadh Blackfoot has many different gender inflections for verbs and nouns... animate nouns, inanimate nouns, animate inflected for possessor, inanimate inflected for possessor, transitive verb for animate objects, transitive verb for inanimate objects, intransitive verb for animate objects, intransitive verb for inanimate objects, and verb stems that require finals... how do I represent all these on the entry? As of late, I have been adding abbreviations in italic, such as nan, nin, vta, vti, vai, etc.... GKON (talk) 21:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Animacy is added by a parameter |g=an (animate), |g=in (inanimate). Possessed forms of nouns I would mark as inflections, i.e. nonlemmas (cf. čuláhl, čhùl, увтыс), and the impersonal possessed forms I would set as lemmas, and just mark them in the inflection section once you get to that (cf. misôkan vs akohp).

Verb transitivity I'm honestly not sure how to handle best. Probably just a label ({{tlb|bla|transitive}} or {{tlb|bla|intransitive}} after a headword template), but I'm not sure what the difference is between transitive/intransitive verbs with animate vs inanimate objects.

Hope this helps a bit. Thadh (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

On aaksta': Is this supposed to be a prefix (aaksta-) or a particle (aaksta', may be bound or free)? "Adjunct" is not a POS that we support at the moment. Thadh (talk) 23:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

In Blackfoot, there are words that aren't necessarily prefixes or suffixes known as adjuncts, which include tense, adjective, adverb etc. aaksta' is in this case a prefix so I guess I could change it as such, but calling these kind of words adjuncts is the way that Blackfoot dictionaries and speakers that I know of do. If you have a suggestion for changing this, please please let me know... GKON (talk) 02:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I've decided to do this for Cree. I don't know Blackfoot, so I'll leave the handling of this to you, but you should either propose the addition of "adjunct" to the list of allowed POSs (at WT:BP) or choose from the already allowed POSs. Thadh (talk) 14:45, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I think I will propose the addition of "adjunct"... GKON (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Thadh Slightly off topic here but one of the lemmas GKØN440 added, danit'ada, was under the language title Tsuutʼina, apparently this is the new name of Sarcee language, which Wiktionary has a section for. This situation seems to be in need of some kind of operation I don't know the first thing about, just letting you know. Orexan (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Here in Southern Alberta, we never really use the name Sarcee for the Tsuut'ina people, so it never occurred to me that Sarcee already had a section, apologies. Is there any way I could go over the Wiktionary names for Algonquin Canadian Indigenous languages? GKON (talk) 22:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

• Algonquian

GKON (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

See the family tree at CAT:Proto-Algonquian language. Thadh (talk) 22:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

And for Sarcee (which is Athabaskan, not Algonquian): CAT:Proto-Athabaskan language. Thadh (talk) 22:25, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Tsuut'ina (Sarcee) is a Na-Dene language... I was just wondering about other Indigenous languages sorry that wasn't clear :') GKON (talk) 22:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The category links have a white box with the text Family tree, it's a drop-down menu. Click to expand and you'll see all the languages that share the same ancestor (Proto) language. Orexan (talk) 22:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Templates make life easier

I see you've started putting the {{head|bla}} template properly, that's great. Now that you do, you don't need to put the Category links (lemma, noun etc) also. The {{head|bla}} template is the ID of your entry, it automatically categorizes it as a lemma (or a non-lemma in the case of inflections or some other things), categorizes the Part of Speech (noun, verb, adjective etc.), and the gender (male, female, neutral, including animate, inanimate etc.). With the verb transitivity, you need to add the label as in {{lb|bla|transitive}} or {{lb|bla|intransitive}} at the sense line after the #, and this automatically categorizes for that. I've also been putting the animacy info in the label, but it seems that animacy isn't automatically picked up with verbs (nor with numbers), so with those I guess you can continue putting Category links.

Also I've found the Reference template someone has already made for the source you're using, which is {{R:bla:Frantz:1989}}. So you can just paste that from now on. Templates are shortcuts that allow to display large (and/or repetitive) info with as little text as possible. There are 2 more in CAT:Blackfoot reference templates, so if you find info in those sources, you could use them. I've also added the {{cardinalbox|bla|}} temp on the aaniso (eight) entry, it's very basic now but there's quite a lot you can do with that once you add entries for other numbers, take a look at Template:cardinalbox for how to use it when you have some time. Another thing very useful is {{w|}} template for when you wanna link a Wikipedia article, just paste the title as you see it on the article and it should work.

You can replace the References in the entries you've created any time, no hurry, and I can help with some. This is nothing to worry about by the way, just an easier/simpler way to do it. Orexan (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh awesome thank you so much this is really helpful... GKON (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

aapámiaapiikoan (“European”) seems to be a combination of aapám (“across the water”) and the word for person/people. If you know, or if/when you find out the exact word for it, you can create an Etymology section and put {{com+|bla|aapám|the word for people|lit=across the water people|t1=across the water|t2=people}} and it looks like this;

Compound of aapám (“across the water”) +‎ the word for people (“people”), literally “across the water people”.

This not only looks cool and neat but also automatically categorizes the lemma under Compound terms. Orexan (talk) 22:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

This reminds me, I've looked up how to handle animate/inanimate verbs, and that is by adding |g= to the headword templates, just like with nouns. This automatically sorts a verb to CAT:Blackfoot animate verbs (like CAT:Ojibwe animate verbs). ~

Thadh (talk) 22:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you... GKON (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Help for Blackfoot Etymology

@Thadh Sorry for the ping, but I was hoping you could help me out as I try to find the ancestors for Blackfoot lemmas. I have taken a peek at Proto-Algonquian, and found that most of the time, the descendants don't include Blackfoot.... GKON (talk) 16:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

That just means that they haven't been added yet - you should do that. Use the template {{desc}} and add it to the list in the correct place (if applicable), just like the others are already. Thadh (talk) 17:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Could I match the definition of the Proto-Algonquian word and Blackfoot word, and then add the descendant word? Does that make sense? For example if the word for boat in Blackfoot is aahkioohsa'tsis, and there is a word in Proto-Algonquian with the same definition: boat, is that a match? GKON (talk) 17:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Eh, not necessarily. It has to match according to historical phonology, but I don't know how Blackfoot developed. I'm guessing that if the PA term sounds similar it will probably be the ancestor, since Algonquian languages are pretty close. I can try finding some literature on the topic later on, if you want. Thadh (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much, I would greatly appreciate that. GKON (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

You're in luck! There is a whole two papers on the development of Blackfoot from Proto-Algonquian. So this should be enough to determine whether your Blackfoot term is indeed developed from a given PA form.

As for Proto-Algonquian itself, I highly recommend using the Proto-Algonquian dictionary, which is pretty easy to use and you only need to change the long vowel diacritic and one or two consonants I believe (see WT:About Proto-Algonquian), so it's perfect for basic terminology; For terms that aren't in this dictionary you'd probably have to search for literature yourself.

Hope this helps! Thadh (talk) 17:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks so much, I'll work on this! GKON (talk) 01:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

togagihâch, michadikodi, ninagha

Headers and head templates don't match. Can you check these when you have the time? Orexan (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, let me take a look... GKON (talk) 14:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Ohh I see the problem, thank you for pointing this out! GKON (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Talk pages

Hi. Rather than creating many identical talk pages, why not get consensus in a discussion at WT:TR? Equinox ◑ 14:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

So that I no longer have to create talk pages? Would I just start a discussion about Tsuut'ina entries being incorrect and I'll get consensus for all changes? GKON (talk) 14:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)