Archive – 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019

Greek inherited or?Edit

Hello! about όλισβος and the question whether inherited or later reborrowing. It is not included in Dictionaries of Modern Greek at all. It so happens that we sometimes use ancient words (here written in monotonic script, after 1982).
But for many many other words (which are now under Category:Greek terms inherited from Ancient Greek or from Koine) greek etymologists make a distinction between inherited and learnedly inherited or internal borrowings always separately from external borrowings (because internal are such a large Category). The terms used are diachornic internal borrowing, learned internal borrowing, revived or reinvigorated words. Some dictionaries use the symbol < which does not say whether inherited or revived. But {{R:DSMG}} always marks the distinction. There is no such Category in en.wiktionary, so, i often add the word «Learnedly» before {inh|el|grc|....}. In el.wiktionary, the Category is named Αναβιώσεις (Revivals).
Also, they make a distinction between twice-borrowed and reborrowing external borrowings, but i do not know if there is a difference for the English terms. One is Rückwanderer (αντιδάνειο 'counter-borrowing') and the other is a word that is borrowed 2 times as a doublet (αναδανεισμός). Sorry for too much of greek-specific ety.Categories, and Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 10:10, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek So would you call this a case of learned use? Then I think we could just use {{learned borrowing}} on that entry. If it is as you say and it is not in common use (per the dictionaries) but may be used occasionally by people trying to "revive" an ancient word, that looks a lot like what per Wiktionary standards would count as a "borrowing" (considering, as Wiktionary does, Ancient and Modern Greek as two different languages). — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:15, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, ultra learned. We refer to ancient words often. All the words from Liddell-Scott may be 'mentioned'. For this particular entry, i cannot find any real use in a contemporary text.
As for the greek revivals, they are a special case. They are very common words, widely used, like Έλληνας, like δημοκρατία, all these are revivals, or learned inheritance. Moving them to 'learned borrowings' would mean that they are a foreign language. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 12:30, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
I think for Wiktionary purposes those are still categorized as borrowings; compare Category:English terms borrowed from Middle English and Category:English terms borrowed from Old English; the latter includes a common word like sibling. Older stages of a language are technically treated as different languages (they have different categories and so forth), so any revival of a word from such an older stage would be a borrowing in our etymology system, from what I can tell of precedents in other languages. Inheritance seems to be reserved for those words which remained in continuous use over the ages. But the case of Ancient Greek is complicated as the ancient and modern languages are remarkably close to each other and modern Greeks it seems too me tend to see Ancient Greek as pretty much their own language except a bit old-fashioned perhaps. I don't really agree with that, looking at the grammar and pronunciation etc. of Ancient Greek it is really quite different, but that seems to be the status quo. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:42, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not explain well: Yes, of course greek etymologists name them borrowings too, like every etymologist in the world would do. But because they are so many, a special Cateogory is made for them learned diachronic internal borrowings (estimated ~20,000 words or more), otherwise the 'learned borrowings' category would have thousands of words, which does not produce a comprehensive statistic for them. (And some more greek-specific categories, like cross-borrowing). Anyway, it does not matter. Thank you very much for your interest. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 15:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC) +added the estimated number. ‑‑Sarri.greek  | 15:48, 19 February 2020 (UTC)