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Etymology scriptorium

Welcome to the Etymology scriptorium. This is the place to cogitate on etymological aspects of the Wiktionary entries.

February 2023

sapeur

Is "by surface analysis from saper + -eur" correct? Perhaps i don't understand what surface analysis is, but in any case TLFi says "Dér. de saper2*; suff. -eur2*". --Espoo (talk) 09:29, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

If you click "surface analysis", it should take you to a glossary explanation of what it is. Perhaps the glossary explanation is insufficient? Vininn126 (talk) 09:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It wasn’t linked to the glossary. ( Now it is.)  --Lambiam 12:25, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't been linked for HOW long? Also I really think we should make the switch to another wording soon. Vininn126 (talk) 12:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It always links if you use {{surf}}. I can't think of a less ambiguous wording. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:01, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of Australian slang definition of "billy"

I'm pretty sure that the origin of this is akin to rhyming slang, billabong being shortened to billy which then refers to a bong. Absolutely no idea how I could verify this or find something to cite though. 149.248.103.115 00:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

It's barely rhyming slang, but it does initially sound likely... Although the term for a pot is older, so the similarity in form and function is also a probable derivation. It could also be a combination of the two hypotheses, I guess. Wakuran (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of laveren

I have just added Dutch laveren, a very important word that was still lacking, and also gave it a shortened etymology. It is traditionally considered a borrowing from Old French *lover, first attested in late Middle French and the recent EW follows this line. The more recent EWN (see the same link) on the other hand turns this on its head and states that it was formed in Middle Dutch on account of the dates of attestation. Does anybody object if I follow the EWN on this (with inclusion of a reference)? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Tou could possibly hedge your bets, by including both etymologies. The root seem to be North Sea Germanic, though. The Swedish words lovera amd lovart are believed to be borrowings from Middle Dutch. Wakuran (talk) 14:34, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that could do. For now, I will add a mention of loef, for that is uncontroversial in the recent sources. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

The entry in etymologiebank.nl linked to above states that it is very unlikely that the term was borrowed from French, which, I presume, includes Old French. Which source considers this a borrowing from Old French?  --Lambiam 16:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Only the top entry states that. For the rest, P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Etymologisch woordenboek is representative:

laveren [telkens aan de wind overstag gaan] {loveren [tegen de wind opzeilen] ca. 1384, laveren [heen en weer zwaaien bij het lopen] 1437} < oudfrans loveer [idem], van nederlands loef.

However, it seems that all recent dictionaries consider it to derive from (presumably Middle) Dutch loef, so that could be added without controversy. I suppose that I prefer the EWN's etymology because of the dates. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wet

RFV of the etymology. I realise this comes ultimately from *éǵh₂, but where specifically does the -t come from ? Is its development related in any way to *jut ? Leasnam (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Initially, it seems likely. Cf. [1] and [2]. Looking up [3], it seems that the Proto-Germanic dual paradigm was reanalyzed, rather than directly inherited from PIE. Wakuran (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

玄 as the original character of 弦?

I noticed that 玄's ancient forms look very similar to the ancient forms of 糸 ("silk"). Since 弦 ("string") and 糸 have similar meanings, I was wondering if 玄 and 糸 were originally the same character, then split early on because of pronunciation, and then 玄 had a meaning shift and 弦 was created to represent the original meaning? If that makes any sense. (It sounds a bit far-fetched, but I couldn't think of any other reason why 玄 would have 幺 in it.) Signbear999 (talk) 01:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, 玄 is the differentiated form of 幺 instead of 糸. Also, the right element of 弦 originally was not 玄 (but was changed to 玄 after the Han dynasty because of the visual and phonological similarity), because 弦 originally depicts a bow with an accent circle on its string. All of this info is well known in the Chinese paleography, you can use 李守奎・肖攀《清華簡〈繫年〉文字考釋與構形研究》(2015) (chapter named 幺、玄、糸、𢆶、絲等相關字考) as the reference for those two glyphs. Panates (talk) 5:03, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Reichenowella

The Reichenowella protist is the type genus of the Reichenowellidae family. But Kahl who described the genus here does not give its etymology. Was it named for a person named Reiche, for example Karl Friedrich Reiche? and what does nowellid mean? Thank you for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 06:41, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: I bet it's named for Eduard Reichenow + -ella. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh thank you so much @Mahagaja since I didn't know this protozoologist. Now that you've given me that information, I found that name (but only once) on page 546 of Kahl's publication. Gerardgiraud (talk) 10:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: I just searched Wikipedia for "Reichenow" as it seemed the most likely name. First I found his father, Anton Reichenow, and wondered why a protist would be named for an ornithologist, but then the article mentioned that his son was a protozoologist, and that struck me as much more likely. And now I see that Eduard's Wikipedia article even explicitly says, "In 1932 Alfred Kahl named the protozoan genus Reichenowella (family Reichenowellidae) in his honor." —Mahāgaja · talk 11:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed when you gave me the name I found the Wikipedia page and this reference to Kahl. But, being a purist, wikipedia should not serve as a source for another WP article. But there, the probability is too strong that it is Eduard Reichenow the person concerned, to be able to be false. Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

It's confirmed here. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiktionary entry for "Ven", Danish entomology

In the Wiktionary entry for "Ven" the Danish entomology shows the Proto-Norse rune spelling ending in the Z rune, though the romanized word that follows it in parentheses, has an R at the end. Zalbicolis (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. We have the conflicting spellings on the ᚹᛁᚾᛁᛉ page as well. I know there was a sound change from /z/ to /R/, where that R represents a different sound than the regular lowercase /r/. Its possible that the scribes of the day never changed the spelling, and continued to think of the changed sound as a continuation of the original, but that wouldnt explain why we have a mismatch between spelling and pronunciation. That said, it's being generated by a template, so it's not a typo, and is probably on purpose. —Soap— 19:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

First of all, the entry in question is at ven, not Ven. Secondly, the header is "Etymology" not Entomology. Don't worry: I've seen this error so many times that it doesn't bug me any more... Chuck Entz (talk) 04:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I see what you did there. Although my antennae were up...Wakuran (talk) 21:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

See, over at Wikipedia, note 4 in the section Proto-Norse language § Consonants: “The exact realisation of the phoneme /z/, traditionally written as ʀ in transcriptions of runic Norse (not to be confused with the phonetic symbol /ʀ/), is unclear. While it was a simple alveolar sibilant in Proto-Germanic (as in Gothic), it eventually underwent rhotacization and merged with /r/ towards the end of the runic period. It may have been pronounced as [ʒ] or [ʐ], tending towards a trill in the later period. The sound was still written with its own letter in runic Old East Norse around the end of the first millennium.”  --Lambiam 23:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

uk: піл / ru: полати (sleeping shelf in peasant cottage)

Does this have anything to do with Caló piltra "bed", where does it come from? 67kevlar (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I have a hard time believing Caló would have had any impact on the East Slavic languages. I guess it's possible Caló might have picked it from Slavic on it's way from the East, or it's a shared Proto-Indo-European root, though... Wakuran (talk) 02:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Етимологічний словник української мови. 4(2003), page 404, it is ultimately a Proto-Slavic word, polъ, which denotes a floor. Then it must had gone through semantic shift floor>flat lying place> bed. By the way, this dictionary did mention related terms like Latin spolium and more. Chihunglu83 3:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Any relation to Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/pleh₂-? Wakuran (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

For Romani originally from India, a word like पलंग (palaṅg /palaṅg/) is likely. Mayrhofer thinks the Sanskrit etymon paryaṅka is folk etymologic interpretation of a culture loanword, perhaps Dravidian [4]. 62.155.150.198 19:48, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

This is in connection to the Caló word, you mean? Wakuran (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

for fuck's sake

Today, I read someone theorising that for fuck's sake was coined as a minced oath of for Christ's sake. I have no idea how much truth there is in this, but it does feel plausible given the nonsensical literal meaning. Plus, modern swear words weren’t considered so offensive back when (religious) minced oaths were still being formed in English. Theknightwho (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I've always assumed it was a minced oath but I've never been sure whether it's based on for Christ's sake or for God's sake (or both). It can work the other way around though, I've often heard people say "Fuck...Christ's sake" instead of simply "For Christ's sake" and even said it like that myself on occasion. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The OED states the substitution as a fact ("for fuck's sake" is listed under the heading "Used in certain phrases as a stronger or more emphatic alternative to God, heaven, Christ"). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@Al-Muqanna I'm in two minds as to whether it's a minced oath, and it probably depends on when it was first attested. Nowadays, it certainly is stronger/more emphatic, but did that apply when it was first used? Modern swear words only have the power that they do nowadays because blasphemy is no longer considered taboo. Compare Gropecunt Lane etc. Theknightwho (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The OED's citations for FFS only go back to the 1940s, which is already further back than I can manage. Hard to say when it actually emerged given that people tended not to write that kind of thing out, but I think it's probably not specifically a minced oath given that it's pretty easy to find "God's", "Christ's" in old books (example from 1865, from 1768, from 1599 (!)) and certainly not easy to find "fuck's". (More likely it's the other way round, I think: "fuck" was substituted when the religious options had lost a lot of their intensity.) —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 22:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

There are similar religious oaths in a lot of languages, so the religious concept is likely very old. But yeah, I'd agree it would rather be an "immensed oath" than a minced oath... Wakuran (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

kanon (Danish)

RFV of the etymology.

Borrowed from Old French canon, from Italian cannone.

Old French canon from Italian cannone might work, depending how you define Italian, but when did modern Danish have contact with Old French? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Den Danske Ordbog just states Italian cannone. Wakuran (talk) 12:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Rigorously it would have to have been borrowed into Old Danish (before 16th c.) to overlap with Old French, not Danish directly. @Embryomystic added the etymology and is still around sometimes so they might be able to explain the reasoning. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Is there a Danish dictionary or corpus that will show when the word was first used? I suspect that the immediate source of the borrowing was German, either High or Low depending on how old the word is in Danish. But of course with these international words that are basically the same in most European languages, it can be nearly impossible to say who borrowed it from whom, and it might be safest to just say "from Latin" using {{der}} and not attempt any immediate source. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

SAOB ([5]) states 1631, so presumably Danish is also around that time, possibly somewhat earlier as it's closer to the continent. Wakuran (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

sneed

RFV of the etymology (Etymology 1).

Yes, there's a gag from the Simpsons about "Sneed's Feed & Seed (Formerly Chuck's)", and there's apparently a verb meaning "to seethe". I just don't see anything that connects the two. On top of that, there was a particularly annoying IP who kept trying to slip lame variations on the gag into the entry as a definition. I'd rather not encourage people like that without a solid indication that the gag is, in fact, the origin. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I could come up with a bunch of etymologies that feel more likely, such as snide, Dr. Seuss Sneetches (who might be antagonistic rather than angry) and sneed (sweater from the Lorax book, and apparently a software for Toys'R'Us), Robert Crumb character Snoid (a small, angry and bitter character), and Swedish slang sned (originally slanted, askew, but today also angry, irritated). A dsgruntled Toys'R'Us employee feels just as likely as an etymology as a random Simpsons meme. Granted, none of these have a semantic and phonetic match that feels particularly obvious, though. Wakuran (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The etymology at the entry is accurate AFAIK: the meme involved using "sneed" in random contexts to the point of semantic bleaching, and it was substituted for "seethe" purely because of phonetic similarity. I have no idea how that could be reliably reconstructed, though, albeit there are relevant observations in a few places (Reuters: "The term “sneed” relates to a play on words of a store front name that features in an episode of The Simpsons […] The joke has become synonymous with online trolling and became popular on far-right image boards such as 4chan"; less reliably TVTropes: "[the Simpsons meme] eventually evolved and branched into different memes of its own until its popularity rivaled that of Baneposting. It came to a point where simply writing "Sneed" and/or "Chuck" constitutes a meme of its own (called 'Sneedposting')"). Judging from Google the earliest use of "sneed" for "seethe" appears to be in late 2020, which fits the timeline. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 10:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

You might want to reference the actual etymology of the word which is a proper name. The Simpsons did not invent the name, as the article implies by not back-linking to the original definition : Sneed#Etymology Not only can the word be easily attested by those alive in the 90’s, it’s a very old word. When did wiki become UD?? -- yclept:Berr (Edit: corrected the article accordingly to note the origin in proper name.) —⁠This unsigned comment was added by 66.44.14.23 (talk).

The etymology of the name itself is (virtually) irrelevant to the etymology of the slang term, and is covered at the capitalised entry where you'd expect. At most we could add "See Sneed for the etymology of the surname" or the like. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ňuxati

Requesting sources for the etymology (currently it says "From *ňuxъ +‎ *-ati") as the Vasmer's dictionary entry listed as the only reference says nothing about it, instead discussing (among other things) the connection to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/niuhsijaną. By the way, both references listed on that page support the connection to Proto-Slavic *ňuxati. 217.197.197.68 16:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

You didn't mean Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hneusaną? Wakuran (talk) 15:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The Vasmer dictionary only gives the niuhs- word from what I can see. —Soap— 09:54, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, ESSJa claims *ňuxъ is derived from *ňuxati, while the *ňuxati page claims (at present) that it's the other way round.

Trubachyov, Oleg, editor (1999), “*n'uxъ? *n'ǫxъ?”, in Этимологический словарь славянских языков [Etymological Dictionary of Slavic Languages] (in Russian), issue 25 (*neroditi – *novotьnъ(jь)), Moscow: Nauka, →ISBN, page 159

217.197.197.68 17:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

A week passed and no sources were given, so I edited the article. It still needs work, but IMO it's better now. 217.197.197.68 19:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposed etymology for the Urdu/Hindi "garmee"

Possibly inherited from Sanskrit घर्म (gharma), cognate with Greek θερμός "heat, warmth" (< PIE *g^wher-mo) with the thematic qualitative adjective derivational suffix -mó- added to the base g^wher-. The Wiktionary entry for θερμός contains the expanded list of cognates (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/θερμός). 38.15.208.251 09:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Which word are you referring to? Do you have a link? Wakuran (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I think گرمی‎ / गर्मी (garmī). This terms coexists with the synonym گھرم‎ / घर्म (gharm). Note the difference between ⟨g⟩ and ⟨gh⟩; gharmī would be घर्मी (gharmī), which appears to exist and is translated by Google as summer but has no entry on Wiktionary.  --Lambiam 11:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, it's derived from Persian rather than Sanskrit. Persian has گرم‎ (garm), though, so it still seems to be plausibly derived from the PIE root. Wakuran (talk) 12:48, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

This word is Persian in origin. The aspiration of Persian origin words is known to occur both as a natural adaptation to Hindustani phonology, but also as an intentional attempt to try and re-write the history of the language by purists who identify with the Hindi flavour of it. "thana" (police station) would be an example of a Persian origin word which was already naturally aspirated that has been reclaimed as Sanskrit by popular etymology. The inherited Hindi/Urdu word from Sanskrit gharma is ghām گھام घाम. Vowels where lengthened and consonant clusters simplified wherever possible in the native lexicon. -عُثمان (talk) 03:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

叮

RFV of the etymology of “to disqualify”. I think it could also be from English ding (“to fire or reject”), don't see why it has to an onomatopoeia. @Mahogany115 – Wpi31 (talk) 10:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

There was a TV programme called 殘酷一叮. Mahogany115 (talk) 10:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

deforestation, deforest

According to the entry for deforestation, the term is borrowed directly from French déforestation, which would make deforest a back-formation. However, the latter page lists deforestation as a derived term, and claims that the word is just a compound of de- + forest. Which one's correct? Binarystep (talk) 13:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

deforest is according to the OED, which says deforest is an internal formation within English and deforestation a derived term. etymonline says the same. Neither say anything about a French borrowing. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The earliest use of French déforestation is given as 1874.^[6] In English, the term appeared in print in 1871,^[7] while the verb is attested as early as 1849.^[8] So the French may have been borrowed the term from English; it is not derived from a verb *déforester.  --Lambiam 10:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

glom

RFV of the etymology. I'm satisfied that sense 1 of this word comes from the Scots word glaum but not really for senses 2 or 3. Etymology 3 verb 1 sense 1 of glom was recently deleted due to it being essentially a duplicate of Etymology 1 sense 3, and rightly so, but it did suggest that conglomeration was the correct etymology for the 'combine together' sense. Surely this is also the correct derivation for the 'attach' sense at Etymology 1 sense 3? --Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I think the "attach" sense can be better worded. I've modified it. Leasnam (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

As far as the "stare" sense is concerned, I think this is intended to mean "glaum/glawm" "to stare, loo at; look sad" which is a separate etymology possibly related to gloom (“to look sullen, scowl, frown; stare (at)”). It is used in Scotland and Northern England (Yorkshire), but I cannot find it using this spelling. Leasnam (talk) 02:12, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I've moved the sense to Etymology 2, and it points as an Alt form to glaum (etym 2). I've added a RFV to the spelling glom. Leasnam (talk) 02:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

It looks better now as it does make more sense that the meaning could have shifted from 'steal' to 'grab hold of' to 'latch onto' rather than going directly from 'steal' to 'latch onto' (or 'attach') and the 'stare' sense seems different but I do still wonder whether we can rule out the 'latch onto' sense coming from a word like 'agglomerate' or 'conglomerate'. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hrrmmm, agglomerate is not a common word used colloquially, as glom is, and the meaning is not really the same - ball up vs. latch onto ...hrm, not really visualising this easily... Leasnam (talk) 03:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say this is  Done (?) Leasnam (talk) 05:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

kyrgyz

The ethnonym “Kyrgyz” in literal translation means “forty-tribe people” (from the Turkic “kyrk” forty and “-yz” an ancient plural suffix or “kyrk + gyz” forty Oghuz). [9]

Word "Oguz" in the meaning of "tribe" and "unification of tribes". [10]

Perhaps the most ancient etymology of the ethnonym Kyrgyz is written in the book Majmu at-Tavarikh.

Majmu at-Tawarikh (arab. مجموع التواريخ - “Collection of stories”) is a work in Persian written in the 16th century in Fergana by Mullah Saif ad-Din Aksikendi. [11]

It says that Kyrgyz is Kyrk Oguz. It translates as forty tribes. 17 page. 1 paragraph. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The national flag of the Kyrgyz Republic is a red rectangular panel, in the center of which there is an image of a round solar disk with evenly divergent rays of golden color (forty rays). Inside the solar disk there is an image of a tyundyuk (Kyrgyz tunduk) of a red Kyrgyz yurt. The sun in the ornamental culture of the Kyrgyz people means light, openness, vitality. Forty rays like tongues of flame are forty tribes reunited into a people. [12]

The entire history of the Kyrgyz is written in Russian. Unfortunately, there is practically nothing in English, so almost all sources are in Russian. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Wikislowpoke106 wants us to delete the “forty girls” theory. Any input from more versed users? --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@Wikislowpoke106: The entry was good as it was. Your version was less with worse formatting. I don’t see anything convincing in your motion. Fay Freak (talk) 23:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

On another note, “forty” in Middle Eastern relations is presumably not a factual number, compare Ottoman Turkish قرق‎ (kırk, “forty; many”), but I don’t know how to represent this detail, which few Westerners know, across Wiktionary. See the references at Arabic جِلَّوْز‎ (jillawz). Fay Freak (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, kyrk - in other meanings it means a lot.

With all due respect, but in order to thoroughly understand the etymology of the ethnonym Kyrgyz, it is not enough to be a linguist. In addition to knowledge of the Kyrgyz language, one must have a good knowledge of the history of the Kyrgyz and the history of the Turkic world. Ethnology of the Kyrgyz. CIS historians have been doing this for several centuries. We know our history well. 99% of CIS historians adhere to the version of 40 tribes.

The ethnonym Kyrgyz - meets all the requirements of the Turkic ethnonyms of that time. Like Uch Oguz Karluks, Toguz Oguz Uighurs, Otuz Oguz, Segiz Oguz and so on.

The Kyrgyz identify themselves as a people of 40 tribes. 40 tribes is the most reasoned version. I even showed you a source 500 years ago. The ethnonym Kyrgyz was then translated as kyrk oguz.

Forty girls is just a consonance. And I ask you to remove this line. Kyrgyzophobes like to use this version. For example, Tajiks during the war on the border. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Uch Oguz Karluks (3 oguz), Toguz Oguz Uighurs (9 oguz), Otuz Oguz (30 oguz), Segiz Oguz (8 oguz) Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 01:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The suggestion Kırgız < Kırk Kız seems a far-fetched folk etymology. Is there a scholarly source actually proposing this?  --Lambiam 23:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Not a factual number allright.

kırk kere "untold times"
kırk dereden su getirmek "make all kinds of excuses"
kılı kırk yarma "finicalness" , " split hairs"
kırk yıllık kani olur mu yani "you can not teach an old dog a new trick"
yalancı kırk yılda bir doğru söylese de inanan olmaz " liar is not believed even when he tells the truth"
hiç/kırk yıl düşünsem aklıma gelmezdi "can you beat it/that? expr"
kırk yılda bir "once in a blue moon expr."
Flāvidus (talk) Flāvidus (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

pants

RFV of the etymology. Tagged but not listed a while ago by another editor, so I'm listing it here. Clearly pants is from pantaloons, the issue is where the meaning of rubbish comes from. It seems likely to me that it is due to the association of pants with other words meaning rubbish, like shit and crap, but there are other theories that might be worth discussing or mentioning as plausible origins of this sense in the etylology section of our pants entry. Other ideas are discussed on this thread[13] --Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Since it emerged abruptly in the UK in the 1990s the alternatives suggested at the WordReference topic (from German and from the turn-of-the-century US "my name is pants" phrase) look tendentious to me. The one published treatment I can find, in Susie Dent's 2007 Language Report, credits either Simon Mayo or Zoe Ball, and at any rate it seems to have been a radio invention. Michael Quinion says the same anecdotally ("It first turned up in print in 1994, in pieces that indicate it was popularised by DJs on the BBC’s radio pop channel, Radio 1, most probably by Simon Mayo, though the finger is often pointed at Zoë Ball" [14]) but suggests it might have originated among students a couple of years before then. We can speculate about why they chose "pants" specifically; I doubt there's a very deep explanation beyond it sounding funny. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 02:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Strephon

Could the name of this pastoral shepherd character, who first seems to turn up in English in Sidney's Arcadia, not come from the greek στρεθω (strepho, in case the greek letters don't come out), meaning to turn? Strephon certainly sings in Sidney; and in later manifestations eg Tippett's Midsummer Marriage, he is the leader of the dance. Strephonie (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The Ancient Greek word you're asking about is στρέφω (stréphō, “to turn, twist”). That verb is related to strophe, so I suppose there is a poetical connection. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

And στρέφων (stréphōn) is the masculine form of its present participle, meaning “turning, twisting”, or, used as a noun, “one who turns or twists”.  --Lambiam 18:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

cracker ("poor white" and friends)

The paragraph "Various theories exist..." is formatted in a very bemusing way. The theory that is supported by pieces of evidence from the eighteenth century and apparently preferred by all the linked references is placed last. The hypothesis linking it to corncracker is considered a serious alternative by Etymonline but called a folk etymology by Burrison, who also rejects the cattle driver hypothesis. The suggestion about plantation slave drivers currently lacks a source and presents theoretical problems; perhaps it should just be omitted. The OED for the reference only accepts the braggart theory and mentions the corncracker hypothesis to reject it. Would anyone object to a rewrite that puts the most mainstream theory front and centre? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I can easily see how any of these theories might have contributed to the modern usage, with each reinforcing and influencing what may have already existed. I don't mind putting the mainstream one first though. Leasnam (talk) 00:19, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Neokeronopsis, Keronopsis and Kerona

Neokeronopsis is the type genus of the Neokeronopsidae family. From neo, "new", and "keronopsis", alluding to the genus Keronopsis; name itself composed of keron, by allusion to the genus Kerona I think, and opsis, from the Greek suffix ops, “which looks like”. But ultimately what does Kerona mean? On Muller's original description (1786) here I can read: Kerona orbicularis membranacea, nasuta, corniculis in tota pagina which I don't understand at all. Is it an allusion to a horn or a cirrus that the protozoan has on its body? Thanks for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 17:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Another potential source for keron in Keronopsis is κηρών (kērṓn, “beehive”).^[15]  --Lambiam 17:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

"Keronopsis is a composite of Kerona (an oxytrichid genus whose name is likely derived from the Greek noun he keronea [sic: κερωνία (kerōnía)], the fruit of the carob tree, Ceratonia siliqua […]) and the Greek suffix -opsis" [16]. (The description from Müller you quote is for a specific species and doesn't explain why the genus is called kerona—it's just stating what kind of kerona it is.) —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

More significant is a single-line short description after the heading for the genus (each genus heading has one- Trichoda has Vermis inconspicuus, pellucidus, crinitus, and Himantopus has Vermis inconspicuus pellucidus, cirratus.), with a footnote explaining the reason for creating the genus:

Vermis inconspicuus corniculatus. ²²

22) Cum ob organa externa in Rastella [the first species is Kerona rastellum], nec cilia, nec pilos, sed aculeos seu cornicula simulentia, genus novum uni speciei fingendum esset, e genere Trichodæ, ut nimia specierum affluentia diminueretur, corniculis aculeiformibus, non quidem in tota pagina, instructos, Trichodisque in reliquus magis affines, exemi, unaque cum Param, Histrione novo generi adjunxi.

As for the carob tree: κερωνῐ́ᾱ (kerōníā) is an alternative form of κερᾱτωνῐ́ᾱ (kerātōníā), and both names refer to the horn-shaped pods of that species. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

mavis

I’ve found many competing origins for mavis. Our etymology seems to link to a now dead Vulgar Latin malvitius apparently from malum vitis and so “enemy of the vine”, however across different dictionaries and wikimedia I have found several different ideas, but all of them seem to allege that it is not as cut and dry as our etymology suggests. I found links to mave and mauve, links to Breton, and one link to Greek μαβής, I think the Latin derivation makes sense but I’m just wondering how strong it really is compared to the other etymologies CanadianRosbif (talk) 10:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The proposed derivation from malum vitis smells like folk etymology. Etymology and history of “mauvis”, in Trésor de la langue française informatisé [Digitized Treasury of the French Language], 2012, presents derivation from the colour name mauve as the main theory, dismissing borrowing from Breton milhui as unsubstantiated, the reverse borrowing being more likely. That the Medieval French would have named a native common bird with a Greek colour name centuries before the Greeks borrowed the name from Ottoman Turkish is too silly to consider, but the modern sense of μαβής may have been influenced by French mauve.  --Lambiam 12:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

It appears that the malum vitis theory is due to Friedrich Diez, who writes, in his Etymologisches Wörterbuch der romanischen Sprachen, Volume 2 (fifth edition, 1887):

Man deutet das wort aus malus, da der vogel dem weinstocke schädlich ist und darum auch grive de vendange, dtsch. weingartsvogel heißt; grammatisch besser wäre malum vitis unheil des rebstocks.^[17]

My translation:

One explains the word from malus, because the bird is harmful to the grapevine and therefore also is called grive de vendange, in German weingartsvogel [“vineyard bird”]; grammatically better would be malum vitis disaster of the grapevine.

So malum vitis is not presented so much as a theory, but as a pedantic improvement on a supposed one-word etymon ascribed to “one”. And Dietz actually just mentions this, in the next sentences expressing his preference for the Breton theory. All considered, I see no clear argument for even mentioning the malum vitis theory.  --Lambiam 12:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

doodlebugger

"(slang) A seismologist working in the field": What sense of doodlebug is this from? —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Initially, a divining rod seems most likely to me. (Secondarily, one of the bugs.) Wakuran (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The main business of seismic field workers, aka ”exploration geophysicists“, is to find subterranean deposits of natural resources such as oil fields. An article in Oil and Gas Journal explains the term as follows: Doodlebugger has become a generic name for a seismic field worker. The term originated at least as far back as the 1930s and referred to unconventional methods of exploration. A "water witch" with a forked limb was sometimes referred to as a "doodlebugger."^[18] (Dowsing rods often are fashioned from forked twigs.)  --Lambiam 11:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, have added the sense to the entry. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

lito in the Salian law

What is the origin of this Germanic an-stem meaning 'serf'? I don't think an entry exists. It should be under Frankish, so we should probably add that language back (@Sokkjo). ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 16:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

An initial guess is a derivation from Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/liþuz, such as German Glied. But then, perhaps the term's usage for both "body part" and "person who's part of a group" would be calqued from Latin, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Salic law, the Germanic language used in that document is Old Dutch (odt), so that's the language we should have an entry for. Proto-Germanic *lētaz has the right consonants and semantics but the wrong vowel and ending. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:17, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If the linked lemma is correct, the term seems to be derived from Gothic via Late Latin, so I guess that could explain some anomalities in its form. Wakuran (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Wakuran above, that it was borrowed from a Germanic language (probably Gothic or Frankish) into Latin as litus, ledus, litum, lito, litos, letum, leti, letis, etc. The Gothic term is only attested as meaning "part of the body, member, limb", but the OHG cognate lid meant "member of a community, servant, fellow" (in addition to its literal sense of "limb, member"), so it's possible that it could have been borrowed from early OHG or its parent, West Germanic (Frankish) instead. Leasnam (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure if this was found as lito in a germanic language (if it was forgive me). I only see it used in Frankish areas as the forms above and here: De Romano uero uel lito occisis, ... Si quis ingenuos aut litos alteri fidem fecerit, Lex Ribuaria; in Old Saxon areas as servos vel liberos sive liddones; and as lito, litonum, litones, etc. in Old High German areas, but all in Latin. Leasnam (talk) 06:57, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Judging from the entry, Old Dutch lito seems to be derived from Latin litus, from a Germanic derivation from *lētaz rather than *liþuz. My guess might have been wrong. Wakuran (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It was. maltho thi afrio lito ‘I pronounce: I free thee, servant’ is a gloss from the law. None of these words exist on WT. ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 15:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

No, but the infinitive malthon does. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of 峠

Sound shift from 手向け (tamuke, “tribute to a person about to depart”). It is said that these offerings were "given" to them as they traveled into the afterlife, akin to a mountain.

Now, forgive me if I'm getting this massively wrong, since I admittedly don't know more than a smattering about Japanese (whether that's vocab or grammar or etymology etc.). However, even though two sources are indeed cited (from the Daijirin and Daijisen dictionaries), the currently given etymology definitely sounds like a folk etymology more than anything else. WiktionariThrowaway (talk) 19:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Daijisen (1, 2) says 手向け (tamuke) itself had the sense of "highest point on a mountain path" from the fact that travelers prayed and gave offerings to dōsojin there. It makes no connection between 峠 (tōge) and tamuke's other sense of "tribute to a person about to depart". It seems more likely that tōge simply inherited the sense tamuke already had. Rdoegcd (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Maskinongé

The current etymology:

Named after the Maskinongé river, named in turn for the presence of muskellunge (“Esox masquinongy”) in its waters.

does not indicate the linguistic heritage - from Canadian French maskinongé, from masquinongé, from Algonquin mosq ("deformed" or "bear" or "big") + kinonje ("fish"), see wikt:fr:Maskinongé, Québec Toponymie, and Muskies Canada; or Ojibwe maashkinoozhe ("great fish"), maskinoše or mashkinonge ("big pike" or "ugly pike"), see wikt:fr:maskinongé, w:en:Muskellunge. - Amgine/ ^t·e 21:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Alemannic German Porgge

This is claimed to be a borrowing from Italian, but that seems unlikely considering that the latter is quite new to Switzerland (notably, the source cited for this word dates to 1911). The more likely candidates are Romance varieties that historically have been in contact with Swiss German, namely Romansch, Franco-Provençal, and (Ticinese) Lombard - whether the modern or medieval versions. Alternatively, the word may have been borrowed already in the Late Latin period, during or soon after the initial 'Germanization' of Rhaetia.

Incidentally, does anyone know how the word is pronounced? That may be useful for narrowing down its origin. Nicodene (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

According to w:Swiss German#Conventions, "⟨gg⟩ is used for the unaspirated fortis /k/", so my guess is /ˈporkə/. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Nicodene (talk) 21:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/snaggjō

RFV of the etymology. The Old English doesn't make sense. -ggjō would cause palatisation in Old English as sneċġa, and the word would be snedge today. I cannot see how the Alternative reconstruction *sneggō can relate back to Proto-Germanic *snagjô: *snagjô could not produce Proto-West Germanic *sneggō. This reconstruction is simply too difficult to work for all descendants, and it's a major driving force behind why it was changed from *snaggjō to *sneggō early on (see History). Leasnam (talk) 00:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

My issue with Kroonen's theory is that it doesn't account for possibly and likelihood of affixes in PGmc/PWgmc (like -gō) and this tends to weaken his reconstruction imo. He seems very unsure of his own reconstruction himself. It would be nice if it were cleanly *snagjô~*snagilaz, that would be perfect for West Germanic, except for the palatisation in OE - that ruins it, unfortunately. Maybe we can consider the ME a borrowing, and kill the OE reconstruction, and that will work (?), I don't know (I'm currently ill at the moment, and am delirious and unable to think straight). My take was fresh and outside of the box and also made sense. And it's sourced at least in Koebler (who, yes, often sources older outdated constructions [no names mentioned], but he doesn't cite anyone specifically for this one: he has it as *sneggōn/sneggan. For what it's worth. Leasnam (talk) 01:03, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I just checked and it seems unlikely that the ME snegge (also sneke) is a borrowing, because the Middle Dutch is snecke (rare) and the Middle Low German is snigge, snicke, so the form is not a close enough match - I would expect a Middle Dutch and Middle Low German loaner to be snegge. Leasnam (talk) 01:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I cannot see who you are talkimg to. Anyway, did you mean snatch phonetically "snedge"?

Leasnam's merely trying to work out the etymology, personally. Possibly someone will respond, later. Also, this is a root word meaning "snail", so "snatch" is clearly incorrect, and from another root. Finally, in the future, please sign your posts with four tilde; ~~~~ Wakuran (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Snatch is synonym with Schnecke (“vagina”), which would easily explain the lack of attestation and the rarity of it in German. I only heard it once in the movie City of God and don't know if it's citable, so I'm telling you it because it supports the phonology. I'll take that over arbitrary folk etymology in the form of pubescent jokes, unless the joke is told right. 185.109.152.69 17:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If this is a movie dubbed into German from Portuguese, it could be a translation of concha, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 13:16, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

snedge ~ snatch - that's a stretch, even for me ! :] Leasnam (talk) 16:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

March 2023

enough is enough

Can anyone find evidence that enough is enough is a calque of Yiddish גענוג איז גענוג‎ (genug iz genug)? — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

John Heywood, a 16th-century English writer, recorded the phrase as being one of “the prouerbes in the englishe tongue”. (See the first citation for the entry.) I find it implausible that a 16th-century English proverb derived directly or indirectly from a Yiddish source. I find the phrase also used in a contemplation by Robert Harris D.D. from Oxford, formerly a pastor in Hanwell, entitled “A Remedy againſt Covetouſneſſe”, published in 1654.^[19] I find it hard to image a pathway from a Yiddish saying to a 17th-century Anglican pastor and consider this in fact evidence against it being a calque from Yiddish.  --Lambiam 17:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

There appears to be general agreement in the literature that enough already is a calque on a Yiddish expression (as discussed by Leo Rosten in Hooray for Yiddish, pp. 113–4 e.g.), but I can't find people making that claim about enough is enough. This thesis on Yiddish-origin terms in English explicitly contrasts enough already as a phrase of Yiddish origin with enough is enough as the "general English" expression (p. 56). Apart from the proverbial meaning mentioned by Lambiam, the OED also has a 17th-century example of enough is enough where it seems to serve as an expression of exasperation, so I think Yiddish origin can be excluded. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I also couldn’t find anything satisfactory to indicate a Yiddish origin. — Sgconlaw (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Barberry

I stumbled onto the entry for barberry while looking to add photographs. Can someone comment on whether the correct etymology is from "barb" + "berry"? They do have substantial thorns. A direct descent from "berberis" as listed in the entry page seems too simplistic. Gorillo.Chimpo (talk) 00:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Middle English berberie makes that unlikely. The similarity of the "-beris" in Medieval Latin berberis to Middle English berie led to a change in the Middle English ending through folk etymology- perhaps the same thing happened with the "berb-" in berberie and Middle English barbe. I should mention, though, that in Middle English barbe was the word for beard, and wasn't as widely used for spiky things as in modern English. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Huaiyang

I am very interested in this concept of "reinforced by" that the good editor @LlywelynII is proposing in Huaiyang's etymology: diff. I have often thought of doing something similar, but I never found the kind of objective criteria with which to make these judgments. In the absence of such criteria, I use citations to determine when a word originated. Sometimes, it is clearly no older than Wade-Giles- like Kaohsiung. Sometimes it is clearly no older than pinyin (Hanyu Pinyin)- Guangzhou- or Tongyong Pinyin -Cijin. Sometimes, it's pre-modern, like Shanghai. I even provisionally identified some words as coming from pre-Wade language-specific transcriptions: Xansi, Shang-hae, Chang-hai, Fo-chan, etc.

My strict mindset says: No! There is no 'reinforcement'! If it existed, later transcription/transliteration systems that mimic the results of the older systems are irrelevant! My open-minded thinking says: Of course! How could you avoid mentioning systems that are in some way a part of the history of a given word's use?

Anyway, I think this is something better for a discussion between you all. I literally do not know what to do. Once some determination is made, I will follow along with that. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• It's a relatively standard concept in etymology and I'm not sure what's problematic about it. Certainly for places in mainland China the idea that "if it existed, later transcription/transliteration systems that mimic the results of the older systems are irrelevant" would just be wrong, given that there is now generally an expectation of conforming with pinyin. "Reinforcement" reflects exactly this kind of situation, where another linguistic source happens to align with some prior derivation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Obviously it depends. In the case of Shanghai, use of that form preceded Wade being born, but its continuing use is just as clearly based on it being the atonal pinyin form of the name. It's worth mentioning, which is why I mentioned it. It's fair enough to remove it from Huaiyang, demanding to see an exact source, but that seems unhelpful and specious unless there's a good-faith reason to doubt the information. Here, it's just the PSP form created by nixing Wade's hyphens. It was neither pinyin (which didn't exist yet) nor Wade (which should have the hyphens).

Anyway, just use full-on blank lines for paragraph breaks or find a way to indent them. Don't just run things together in awkward blocks of broken text using a single < br > tag. — LlywelynII 14:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I see this as an evolving situation. I am proud that Wiktionary is working on this, because I don't see anyone else doing this hard work. I am 100% open-minded to experimentation in this area. For those among you who think "Oh God, can't we just ignore the transliteration systems, bruh?", confront how the three words Xizhi, Hsichih, and Sijhih would be handled in your mindset- you would botch it. So we need to create a system that is really better than anything else that exists. UPDATE: Check out Shihlin and Shihmen. Under my understanding of the 'reinforce' theory, I would add "reinforced by Tongyong Pinyin". UPDATE: 'reinforced' is good, but what about 'reiterated'? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC) (Modified)

@Geographyinitiative: As I said above, "reinforced" is the standard word for this phenomenon, it's not something we've made up (as "reiterated" would be). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Al-Muqanna-- Thank you for your comment and help. Could you give me one example of the use of "reinforced" in an etymology on Wiktionary, outside the context of Mandarin? I want to see how it's done outside this context. Also, if there are specific reference works that use "reinforced", let me know- you said it was "standard" above. Please don't hate me, and thanks again for your help. When I read the reply, I want to feel utterly BTFO, so please do not hold back the best evidence. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I found fish story and mixed through a simple word search, it's also used in a lot of Esperanto entries, where words were picked primarily from a few European languages, but preferred if they also were internationalisms. Wakuran (talk) 19:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Wakuran. This was so far outside my conceptual framework that I didn't really know what would be a legitimate example of this way of writing an etymology. I plan to start experimenting with this immediately. UPDATE: Experimenting with this at Kaifeng, Lankao, Yinchuan Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC) (Modified)

bankrupt

RFV of the etymology.

see Vocabolario Etimologico della Lingua Italiano 1907 —⁠This unsigned comment was added by Italiano10000 (talk • contribs) at 03:44, 3 March 2023‎.

Can you explain what aspect you want to see verified? Do you question the veracity of the entry banca-rotta in the Vocabolario etimologico della lingua italiana? Or do you doubt that English bankrupt, like Italian bancarotta, was derived from banca +‎ rotta?  --Lambiam 12:15, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Not sure but since @Italiano10000 added the source themselves and removed the RFE tag they might just be notifying that it's resolved. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I think, though, that it is plausible that Medieval Latin was an intermediary: bankrupt < banca rupta < banca rotta.  --Lambiam 12:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

So, it would have been borrowed from Italian, but then re-Latinized? (Otherwise, it seems that many languages have borrowed the French form.) Wakuran (talk) 12:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible that the English 〈p〉 was mute at some point, and hence at that point not spelt either, afterwards in English etymologically to ruptures etc.? In German though we find bankrutt, Bankrutt often in the mid-19th century still, so the direct Italian borrowings claimed do not wholly convince me, rather Middle French banqueroute as for Dutch bankroet is the case for these forms at least, so Wakuran’s suspicion of French borrowing seems right. (bankerott and bankerutt is also often in German, the second vowel French.) Fay Freak (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the OED has Middle French as an intermediary, with bankrupt from Middle French bancque roupte, bancque rotte, which itself is from Italian banca rotta. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I have looked into the OED now. The relevant spelling in various quotes is bankrout, also with ck, que, hyphen, trailing e etc., both adjective and verb from mid 16th century. Not going to clean Wiktionary’s pile of omissions here, I am just making note that the translations all have to be checked as having been added by etymological fallacy—German bankrott, I have fixed, is not used in legal parlance anymore (bankruptcy law → Insolvenzrecht) and so on; I don’t intend to check all particular legal systems of Europe, especially if I can rely upon later editors botchily amending the translation tables anyway and the next one complaining that Fay Freak has been a formatting brazenface to convey points incomprehensible for the general language user anyway. Fay Freak (talk) 15:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

We find the Latin term banca rupta in the book Dissertatio de foenere trapesitico, a treatise by Claude Saumaise from 1640.^[20] Saumaise first gives a Greek term meaning “the table has been upset” (τράπεζα ἀνασκουασθεῖσα ἀνασκευασθεῖσα) before writing that “our people” call this banca rupta. In the 16th century we find the spelling Bankroute^[21][22][23] next to bankrupt.^[24][25][26]  --Lambiam 05:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

(That's an ευ.) That's an ancient Greek expression—LSJ has "τῆς τραπέζης ἀνασκευασθείσης" in Demosthenes, and we have it as a sense at ἀνασκευάζω. I can't find any suggestion in the literature that banca rotta is related to the Greek, though, which has a slightly different semantic nuance in any case—dismantling in the first instance rather than breaking—so this might be a case of convergent evolution. The OED notes that ruptura, by itself, for bankruptcy is attested in Italy in the early 14th century. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The story of these benches being immediately torn to pieces speaks to the imagination, but I somehow have my doubts that the physical benches of insolvent bankers in renaissance Florence were literally broken. Just like English broken, Italian rotto can be used figuratively to mean “useless, wiped out, ruined”.  --Lambiam 17:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Right, since banca must also have been figurative already, to transfer to a whole situation of a business or person. Apart from the circumstance that benches weren’t cheaply mass-produced to be thrown away when someone moves unlike today. Fay Freak (talk) 14:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

冇雷公咁遠

RFV of the etymology. Added by @Mahogany115. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

https://www.facebook.com/920473704740560/posts/3118662158255026/ Mahogany115 (talk) 06:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

muser (Musical.ly user)

I could not find the etymology using Google. Is it from the sense “one who muses” (although the meaning does not seem related) or from a clipping of music/Musical.ly + -er? J3133 (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Or just m(usical) user? —Soap— 16:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Since the last part has fallen out whether it's music, musical, musical.ly is academic, but a blend with user would also be my guess. The coincidence with muser as "one who muses" was probably intentional but not the first-order derivation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I have added “Likely a blend of Musical.ly (or music/musical) +‎ user” as the etymology. J3133 (talk) 10:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

क्षण (kshana, kṣaṇa)

I have been looking for the etymology of this Sanskrit word for a long time and haven't been successful. Does anyone know what the source of the word itself?

I am studying how various languages express the concept of [moment]. Any information would be very helpful. Thanks! 188.150.0.254 12:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

خیلی, hayli, xeyli

These articles claim that the etymology is "[f]rom Arabic خَيْل‎ (ḵayl, “horses”)." There is an uncited footnote explaining:

According to Dehkhoda, the semantic shift is from Saadi Shirazi's Gulistān: 1258, Saadi Shirazi, :

‏اندک اندک خیلی شود و قطره قطره سیلی گردد‎

(please add an English translation of this quote)

Nişanyan Etymological Dictionary proposes a different etymology for "hayli": https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/kelime/hayli

(Translated: A borrowing from the Arabic word ḥaylin حَيْلٍ "very, to a great degree". This word is derived from the Arabic word ḥayl حَيْل “strength, force” from the root: ḥyl. (NOTE: This word has the same root as Aramaic/Syriac ḥayil חַיִל “herd, army”. This word is also cognate to the Akkadian word ellatu of the same meaning.)

Is this enough basis to add حيل as an alternative etymology for hayli? What about خیلی and xeyli? Helenofbrooklyn (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I added the Turkish etymology based on {{R:ota:Redhouse}}. Redhouse gets some things wrong but if he is wrong here he has company. We do not have حَيْل‎ (ḥayl) in the dictionary yet. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

journal (axle-part)

Why is "The part of a shaft or axle that rests on bearings." called a journal? - -sche (discuss) 22:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

@-sche: OED says “[n]o explanation of its origin has been found”. It’s apparently originally a Scottish usage. — Sgconlaw (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Should probably be listed as a separate, unknown etymology in that case. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. I see the dsl.ac.uk Scottish National Dictionary says an axle's journal is also termed its journey. They write that the etymology is obscure but "it is just possible that the word may orig. be a corruption of churnel, chirnel, a kernel, which resembles the axle-part encased in its bearings, with formal influence from journal, journey. Cf. Jurnal." Jurnal they have as a verb, found only in the past participle, meaning coagulate(d) like pig's blood kept for black pudding; they consider this "appar. a voiced form of chirnel", the blood having kernelled into lumps.
This is not the first vehicle/transport term I've heard of with a superficially opaque relationship to an apparent homograph; in the case of commute ("change entirely, exchange" and "regularly travel to work") etymologists were able to find the links, but it'd be expected that in other cases they'd be lost to time, so although I hate to stray into pure speculation and it's unusable in our entries unless any of it leads to sources, I wonder if it could even be related to or reinforced by something like (a) that engineers' journals/records kept track of what state of repair etc these were in, so they were the journal parts, or (b) jour (“journeyman”), being something a journeyman worked on, or (c) the other jour which Century has as any of various parts of various larger designs: "In decorative art, an opening forming part of a design. In lace-making, one of the regular meshes of the ground."
BTW, Century also has a verb sense ("In mach., to insert, as a shaft, in a journal-bearing. 'The cranks are placed upon posts, rafts, or boats in the stream, and journalled at the water-line, thus keeping one-half of the paddle-serface in action.' Science, III, 606.") and some derived terms we already had entries for, the latter of which I've linked journal to now. - -sche (discuss) 19:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I assumed that commute in the sense of transport was due to one interchanging one's location. Is that incorrect? Wakuran (talk) 21:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Our entry (and e.g. Etymonline) says the transport sense developed because a person who travelled regularly to and from work would buy a commutation ticket which permitted travel all month (or however long) for a commuted payment; such a person was a commuter who commuted in sense 1.1 (buying a month pass for a lump sum instead of a new ticket for each trip every day). - -sche (discuss) 02:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

If the form originates from churnel, chirnel, the origin is Scottish English, not Scots, which did not undergo the lenition and palatalization /t͡ʃ/ < /k/.  --Lambiam 14:55, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I had originally written Scottish English but the SND entry at DSL indicates it is Scots (Sc.), citing it to the Supplement to the Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language. There is a methodological problem here since I don't think it makes sense to reject empirical distinctions on the basis of sound change reconstructions. But the sound change history doesn't seem to be as straightforward as that in any case: the Edinburgh History of the Scots Language (p. 99) suggests that the reason for forms like kirk in Scots is not in fact a differential sound change reflecting retention of earlier /k/ but "patterned lexical borrowing by bilinguals" from Norse. In Insular and Northern Scots /k/ -> /tʃ/ does occur (see the SND entry on 'k', section 2), and the Edinburgh History notes that "the inventory of palato-alveolars can be added to by /k, g/-Palatalisation" (p. 500), and in some dialects these have subsequently mixed to /tʃ/ (it mentions the pronunciation of ken with /tʃ-/ as an example). The shift of palato-alveolars to /tʃ/ is apparently attested in early Scots and represents a similar outcome to northern English dialects, which seems to be implied for chirnel. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

sculptor etymology

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=sculpo // sculpo , psi, ptum, 3, v. a. cf. γλύφω, to hollow out, grave; also scalpo, γλάφω, 88.251.236.99 18:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

See Latin sculpō. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I have set the etymology to "From sculpō (“I sculpt”) +‎ -tor."  --Lambiam 14:45, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Caserta

A few questions here. The Italian etymology currently given for Caserta is "From Medieval Latin casa irta (“impregnable house”), referring to its elevation in relation to the surrounding area." However, we don't have an entry for a Latin word *irta. There is a word hirta, but defined as meaning "hairy, shaggy, rough, rude, unpolished", not "impregnable". The Italian word irto apparently has the meaning "steep, rough, bold, difficult"; is this the sense involved? If so, is "casa irta" actually Medieval Latin (in which case we should add an Medieval Latin entry with the relevant form and sense) or could it even just be intepreted as Italian?

The Latin entry doesn't specify an etymology, but it looks like Caserta in Latin would be a New Latin form borrowed from Italian or something like that. Given that the Italian pronunciation according to Wikipedia is [kaˈzɛrta], I find the ē in the Latin entry inexplicable: is it correct? Urszag (talk) 23:50, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The plain fact that Caserta is called Casa Irta in Medieval Latin appears to be true: in Erchempert's 9th-century Historia Langobardorum we find "Eodem igitur tempore Landolfus frater Landonis Casam Irtam cepit" alongside two other examples of Casam Irtam [27]. Judging from the date this would have to predate the modern Italian name, but without further research I can't say whether it's the actual etymological origin and not a Latinisation of something else. As far as hirtus goes, though, dropping and adding initial h arbitrarily is pretty common in Medieval Latin. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

From some further research, Caserta is used in later Medieval Latin. The original name is also apparently attested with the h as Casa Hirta, and various sources gloss it as "steep house" or "house on the slope", presumably inferred from the location and the Italian meaning of irto (oddly Wikipedia glosses it as "home village located above", with no real justification that I can see). I can't find any particularly detailed discussion of the word beyond that, at least in modern sources. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 17:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Amphisiella

Amphisiella (protist) is the type genus of the Amphisiellidae family. Amphi means "on both sides", but what does siella mean?

Certainly ella means "small", but why sie? Thanks for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 10:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Amphisia + ella. The first vowels of endings don't fuse into digraphs like they would in French, so you should always assume "-iella" is "-i" + "-ella". It's a little easier to see in names like "Klebsiella" where there are fewer vowels.

Taxonomy is full of awkward double vowels where the first vowel is part of the base and the second is part of the ending. It's more obvious in animal names, where family-group names start with "i" ('-idae", "-inae", "-ini") and you have combinations like "Teiidae", but it happens all the time in names for algae, fungi and plants, too. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:05, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

hosebeast

Hosebeast's spelling, meaning, and etymology isn't really certain. I can't find any uses prior to Wayne's World (1992), where it was used as a word of contempt for an ex-girlfriend. A use in the blog www.nirvanaclub.com, entitled "Territorial Pissings" (1993), mirrored the previous sense as a word for a woman that the speaker has disdain for. But a use from 1996 in The Austin Chronicle refers to a "hosebeast" as a sort of poseur in the punk rock scene. At least the punk rock part aligns with Wayne's World. Monkey Tennis (1997) has an animated character named "Hosebeast" who is portrayed as a promiscuous woman. The pornographic film, Kelly the Coed 2 (1998) refers to a porn actress as a "hosebeast" because of her admiration of performing fellatio on men (sucking their penises supposedly like a hose?).

Probably comes from the punk rock scene. But since the first occurrence of it was in a movie, I guess we'd have to see the original script to know whether it comes from "hose" or "hoe's." Then it's whether "hose" refers to pantyhose, a man's penis, or something else. 2600:1700:3777:52F0:418F:E8F3:769F:4C0 05:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Given the context of the first usage, there's also the possibility of derivation from hoser. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:31, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

de reojo

What's the etymology of reojo? Ojo (“eye”), obviously, but is re the Spanish prefix re-, or does the whole thing derive from a Latin word or phrase, or what? - -sche (discuss) 06:05, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

banister

I just added an image to this entry. Wondering about the etym:- No mention of romance languages of the form ebanista and similar. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but the similarity is striking to my mind. And fits much more closely than ballester. Any thoughts? -- ALGRIF talk 15:33, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The semantic shift would be unexplained. Probably just a coincidence. Wakuran (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Obviously I defer to anyone who has actual etym knowledge. However, a quick Q. The ebanista root is to do with expert woodworking and cabinetmaking. Whereas the ballester root has to do with archery bow making. To my mind the "ebanista" root is more clear semantically. Why am I wrong? Thanks. -- ALGRIF talk 10:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I mean, it clearly seems to be a mangling of French balustre, to begin with. And I don't think the connections between English speakers and Romance speakers were particularly strong, except for Norman French. I see French has ébéniste, though. Wakuran (talk) 14:10, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

typhoon

An IP added that the Arabic word might be native rather than Chinese. This prompted me to look at sources again and update the ety, but more eyes and refs would help. What do works about Arabic take the Arabic word's ety to be? Does a Greek word τυφῶν "whirlwind" exist (prior to the introduction of the Arabic/Eastern term to Europe)? Some reference works assume such a Greek word to be the ety of at least the early uses of the English word. A lot of cognates across Wiktionary (typhon, tifón, etc) give inconsistent etymologies we should synchronize and centralize as much as possible. - -sche (discuss) 20:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Τυφῶν (Tuphôn) goes back to at least 700 BCE, and Ancient Greek Τυφώς (Tuphṓs) and Ancient Greek Τυφωεύς (Tuphōeús) go back a long way, too. It looks to me like Τυφῶν started out as more of a serpentine god/monster associated with volcanos (see also Ancient Greek τῡ́φω (tū́phō, “fill with smoke”)), and Τυφώς had something to do with whirlwinds, but they all seem to have gotten muddled together in ways I don't know enough to sort out. So it would seem that by the time of contact with Arabic, τυφῶν probably did mean whirlwind- at least it was borrowed into Latin that way, as tȳphon.

As for Chinese 大風／大风 (dàfēng), it literally just means "big/huge wind". I notice that our entry doesn't list any Middle Chinese or older forms, and that there are several other terms in Chinese and Japanese (which would have borrowed at least the characters from Chinese). It's probably significant that Arabic طُوفَان‎ (ṭūfān) has nothing in the first syllable to match the "a" and "i" in 大, so those probably would have had to have been picked up in some intermediate language between the Chinese and the Arabs. There's also something to consider called phono-semantic matching: if Chinese speakers borrowed a word, they often wrote it (and then pronounced it) with characters that came close to (sort of) matching in both sound and meaning. If the Portuguese called it tufão, the people they encountered in southern China might have rendered it as Hakka 大風／大风 (tai fung´), Cantonese 大風／大风 (daai⁶ fung¹), or something along those lines. In other words, the borrowing might have gone the other way. Pinging @Justinrleung, who can correct me if I got anything wrong with the Chinese. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I knew about the proper name Τυφῶν but hadn't spotted a lowercase common noun, but I now see Liddell and Scott do have an entry for τυφώς "a whirlwind, typhoon" sourced to "Aesch[ylus], etc." (and τυφῶν with -n is listed here). Interesting. The refs I've seen so far that discuss the ety seem to either (a) derive at least early uses of the English word straight from Greek with no non-European intermediaries (e.g. Etymonline), (b) derive the English word from Portuguese-from-Arabic and that from Greek, (c) derive the English word from Portuguese-from-Arabic and that from Chinese and that from [Arabic from] Greek(!), like Cannon & Kaye seem to (cited in the entry), (d) assume the line 'stops' once it reaches Arabic and it's from a native Arabic root (like the IP; Etymonline also mentions this idea), or (e) assume the line stops at Chinese (like Dictionary.com). The evolution of spellings is also noticeable; from what I've seen so far, in English (and also e.g. French) in the early 1500s the spelling is typhon/tiphon (later with f instead of ph), then in the late 1500s and early 1600s I spot forms like tuffon, tufan, but by now the spelling, in both English and French, has circled back to typho(o)n. - -sche (discuss) 18:29, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

If the vowel mismatch of the Arabic term (and not only in the first syllable) is problematic for theories of a Sinitic origin (and I agree it is), then it is also problematic for Portuguese tufão and earlier English touffon. Le Trésor analyzes French typhon as resulting from a crossing of Portuguese tufão (for the sense) with Greco-Latin Typhon (for the spelling) (Etymology and history of “typhon”, in Trésor de la langue française informatisé [Digitized Treasury of the French Language], 2012.). Earlier forms attested in French are tiffon, tifon, tuffon, tufan and tufaon. The French pronunciation of typhon is /ti.fɔ̃/.

Note that the common Chinese term 颱風 (Mandarin táifēng, Cantonesetoi⁴ fung¹) for “typhoon” means, character by character, typhoon wind; one of several competing theories is that this is a phono-semantic matching of English typhoon. To determine the relative plausibilities in the multitude of potential pathways would seem to require accurate dating of the first appearances of various forms in various languages.  --Lambiam 18:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Etymonline claims typhon is attested in English meaning "whirlwind" since the 1550s, but they may be referring to this, the New English Dictionary's oldest cite of typhon, which is hardly a use of an English word typhon but rather a mention of the Greek word typhon:

• 1555, Richard Eden, "The fourth booke of the fyrst decade, to Lodouike Cardinall of Aragonie", translating the Decades of the New World / De orbe novo decades by Peter Martyr, published in 1895 by Edward Arber in The First Three English Books on America, page 81:

  These tempestes of the ayer (which the Grecians caule Tiphones, that is, whyrle wyndes) they caule, Furacanes^[sic]: which they say, doo often tymes chaunce in this Ilande: […]

It would be interesting to see if a word typhon "whirlwind" actually exists prior to the introduction of the word Touffon/typhoon for "giant storm in the Pacific". The NED's next-oldest citation of typhon "whirlwind" is from 1585 and is also a mention of the Greek word rather than a use of an English word: 1585, T. Washington: "A wind called by the Gretians Typhon".

The NED does have one very early cite of the adjective Typhonic, in Wycliffe's Bible c. 1384: "the wynd Tiffonyk, that is clepid north eest, or wynd of tempest". - -sche (discuss) 23:51, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The old NED, by now a century out of date (perhaps someone with access can check if the current OED has updated this), posits both Arabic and Chinese derivation for different forms:

• Typhoon [...] Forms: α. 6 touffon, 7 tuffon, -one, -in, tufon, -faon, tufan, 8 typhawn, 9 tuphan, toofan, touffan, tūfān. β. 7-9 tuffoon, 8-9 tiffoon. γ. 8 tay-fun, 9 ty-foong, tifoon, tyfoon, typhoon. [Two different Oriental words are included here: (1) the α-forms (like Pg. tufão, †tufõe) are a. Urdu (Persian and Arabic) [...] tûfòn, a violent storm of wind and rain, a tempest, hurricane, tornado, commonly referred to Arab. [...] ṭâfa, to turn round [...], but possibly an adoption of Gr. [...] TYPHON²; (2) the β- and γ- forms represent Chinese tai fung, common dialect forms (as in Cantonese) of ta big, and fêng wind (hence also G. teifun). The spelling of the β-forms has apparently been influenced by that of the earlier-known Indian word, while that now current is due to association with TYPHON².]

(Our Portuguese and German entries have different and inconsistent ideas about their etymologies.) - -sche (discuss) 01:24, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

So, instead of a Wanderwort, we have a Winderwort?... Wakuran (talk) 04:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

😂 - -sche (discuss) 04:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The NED does seem to be correct that some forms look to be (more directly) from Chinese, e.g. ty-foong, ty-fung, which match Chinese (and differ from Arabic) in both the vowels and consonants. - -sche (discuss) 04:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The etymology is basically the same in the present OED, just with updated transliterations. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:14, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Mount Everest

RFV of the etymology.
(1) Did 'Mont Everest' or 'Mount Everest' exist in the notes of Waugh & co. before the 1 March 1856 letter?
(2) Did Everest say he didn't want the mountain named for him?
(3) What specifically (and when) did the Royal Geographic Society say about 'Mount Everest' in 1865?
(4) Is the wording of the etymology up to the best Wiktionary standards?
--Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

(2) Yes, his words are reprinted here ("Sir George Everest was present, and stated […] 'he must confess there were objections to his name being given to this mountain which did not strike everybody'", namely "his name was not pronounceable by the natives of India" etc.), corresponding to what modern sources say (e.g.: "Everest himself was not flattered: he pointed out that speakers of the local Persian and Hindi dialects would have trouble with his British surname").

(3) I do not see any evidence that the Royal Geographical Society made any "official" decision about the name in 1865. The first link I give above is an article in the Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society in March 1886 recounting the history of the name up to that point, and the article does not mention anything happening in 1865. There's nothing about the name in the relevant volumes of the Proceedings for 1865. As far as I can tell from tracing the history of the claim of an "official" adoption, this seems to have come from a spurious attempt to reconcile the fact that some history books, going back to at least the 1940s, wrongly give 1865 as the year in which Waugh proposed the name instead of 1856.

What is true is that the name 'Everest' was challenged soon after Waugh's proposal, and the RGS—contrary to what many current sources claim—agreed unanimously with the principle that a European name should not be imposed if an Indian name already exists (see the footnote here excerpting a letter by the secretary of the RGS). The question was rather whether Mount Everest was actually identical with any of the peaks designated by the native names that had been suggested, and while one suggestion had been rejected by 1860, others were still debated by the RGS in the 1880s and no particular conclusion seems to have been made in 1865.

As for (1), I have no idea how you would go about verifying that given that Waugh's personal papers have not been collected anywhere as far as I can tell. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

teyrn & tyrant unrelated??

I was floored to see that the Welsh term teyrn (“sovereign, tyrant”) comes from Proto-Celtic tigernos, and apparently has a completely separate etymology from English tyrant coming from Ancient Greek τύραννος, which is of uncertain origin. The Ancient Greek entry has cf. to Philistine Philistine 𐤈𐤓𐤍‎ (ṭrn, “lord, ruler”), which says it may be linked to PIE. Despite the etymyology for Proto-Celtic tigernos hinting that the root of that word may have little to do with kings, I'd be extremely surprised to see that these two were unrelated. – Guitarmankev1 ^(talk) 12:46, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Why do they have to be related? Sounds like it's a coincidence. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:46, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, similar coincidences seem to be fairly common. As for the sense of the bird, it might likely be a calque. Wakuran (talk) 16:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

To suggest that they might be related is not flat-earth level of paranoid.

"Completely unrelated" is simply incorrect when the etymologies are all so incomplete as to necessitate the mark of {{unc}}.

The assumption that the root of Celtic *tēgeti (“to go”) had little to do with kings is mere speculation and fairly irrelevant. The Greek tyrant stands in contrast to the legitmate king (basileus, which had largely replaced the Mycennaean wanax). In Luwian, it functions as an adjectival epithet of at least three socially defined roles: servant, wife and king (Melchert in FS Salvini 2019). Högemann and Oettinger (Lydien, de Gruyter, 2018, with reference to Melchett) suggest Greek borrowed from Lydian, because of a Hesychian gloss and the fact that the Lydian tyrant Gyges in Archilochos' writing is the first so called (p. 48-50). They say that it equates functionally to Lydian *lailaś (λαίλασ), in accordance with Hesychios, and only in form to *trwannaś because there is precedent with the Hittite epithet of Tudhalija II. laḫḫiyalas as military leader, cp. laḫḫa- (“campaign”) (p. 257-259), which could in conclusion apply to Gyges as well (pg. 453). It would also be borrowed in "the Hebrew transposition srnym of Philistine princes and military leaders," (Melchert with further references to Pintore) apparently some time before s < ṭ, not sure. Archilochos himself is mentioned in old testament.

Kloekhorst shortly discusses laḫḫiya/e- (“(intr.) to travel, to go on an expedition, to roam; (trans.) to attack”), cp. λα(ϝ)ός, λεία, láech, arguing that *i is not part of the root, and a homophone bird to rejecting the onomatopoeic etymology. Not sure.

It might be a stretch but entirely possible that they can be connected to Celtic through a series of changes, if the wanderword is as old as it is said to be widespread. 185.109.152.13 16:24, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

戀人

I wonder if the Mandarin word 戀人 is a borrowing from Japanese 恋人. It seems likely since 恋人 uses kun'yomi and according to the entry for 戀人, the word "is popular among young people." I think Japanese loanwords are usually popular among young Chinese speakers, so it fits the bill. But the entry for 연인 just says that it's a Sino-Korean word. FunnyMath (talk) 16:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually you know what, I think it's almost certainly a Japanese loanword. The Chinese, Japanese and Korean versions even share the definition of a word relating to a specific card game. FunnyMath (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)