RonnieSingh
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Again, welcome! —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 15:16, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
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Persian transliteration: generally no capitals or ê or ô
editRegarding this edit in which you changed irân to Êrân, I think we generally don't use ê and ô, reflecting Dari or Classical pronunciation) but rather i and u, reflecting Iranian pronunciation, and usually proper nouns are not capitalized in transliteration, reflecting the lack of case distinction in Persian script. However, I would like to ask User:ZxxZxxZ and User:Atitarev whether this is correct, because WT:FA TR isn't clear on the first part, since it lists ê and ô, and it doesn't say anything about capitalization. — Eru·tuon 23:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know the current practice but it seems there were not much consensus in the past, though most entries include Iranian Persian only, and usually capitalize according to English. I personally include both transliterations, Iranian and Dari (or Classical Persian), in such cases. I've seen this also in a few Hebrew entries here in English Wiktionary, where two transliterations, Modern Israeli and Classical Heberw, written in two different systems, are included. A possibly relevant case: in w:Dehkhoda Dictionary, which is written in Persian, vacalizations are included in parantheses after lemmas. For words ending in the suffix ـه (-e in Iranian but -a in Dari/Tajik), both vocalizations are included. --Z 10:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
As for the capitals, I think I can refrain from using them in the future, but for the ê and ô, I don't think we should exclude them. I've spent a great deal of time adding pronunciations to words so that people know which words have majhool vowels in Classical Persian, Dari and Tajik. I think the internet is full of sources for Iranian Persian, but it's often hard to find out which words have Majhool vowels on the internet. I've also worked a great deal on the existing templates for converting romanised Persian to specific varieties' pronunciations. Plus, I think it's more logical to mention the vowels in an unmerged state in the romanisation, rather than give the merged forms of a variety more preference. RonnieSingh (talk) 10:51, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Erutuon, ZxxZxxZ:: Hi all. We do have a consensus on the capitalisation. It's all lower case for Persian. And ایران is "irân". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:00, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Actually, it's only "irân" in the eastern dialects. While, it's definitely plausible to use the Iranian transcription, given that that's the place these dialects are spoken in mostly, but we could still include both transliterations. Because from a phonological perspective of Classical Persian, it's "êrân". RonnieSingh (talk) 09:47, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi,
I've started working on the IPA module for Persian (all varieties), and I need your help adding test cases to Module:fa-IPA/testcases. فين أخاي (talk) 09:55, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- @ZxxZxxZ may also be interested if he's active. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 17:03, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Majhul and ma'ruf vowels
editi̇ (short i) :: и̇ (и маъруф ку̊тоҳ) :: ـِ معروف
ī (long i) :: ӣ (и маъруф дароз) :: ی معروف
u̇ (short u) :: у̇ (у маъруф ку̊тоҳ) :: ـُ معروف
ū (long u) :: ӯ (у маъруф дароз) :: و معروف
ė (short e) :: е̇ (е маҷҳул ку̊тоҳ) :: ـِ مجهول
ē (long e) :: е̄ (е маҷҳул дароз) :: ی مجهول
ȯ (short o) :: у̊̇ (у̊ маҷҳул ку̊тоҳ) :: ـُ مجهول
ō (long o) :: у̊̄ (у̊ маҷҳул дароз) :: و مجهول
In Urdu/Hindi, the short vowels ـُ ـِ become majhul immediately before ء ع ح ه in the same syllable, but the long vowels و ی remain ma'ruf. In Dari/Tajiki, both the short and long vowels و ی ـُ ـِ become majhul immediately before ء ع ح ه in the same syllable. Please indicate this in the IPA templates. — This unsigned comment was added by 71.190.201.19 (talk).
Hello there. I am curious as to what you meant when you said that the Persian ـی (ī) suffix merges with Arabic ـِيّ (-iyy). It is obvious that both suffixes are not used in any word together, so I do not think that is what you were trying to convey. Please let me know, thanks.--MarkParker1221 (talk) 02:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- @MarkParker1221 As in Persian, words with the Arabic nisba suffix ـِيّ (-iyy) got reanalysed as having ـِی, essentially merging the two suffixes into one lexical item. RonnieSingh (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- @RonnieSingh I see, you are talking about the Arabic loan words in Persian which originally had the Arabic ی ‘iyy’ suffix and were interpreted to have the Persian ی ‘ī’ suffix. This phenomenon only exists in Arabic loan words. Off the top of my head I think اسلامی would be an example of this, as well as جمهوری, but I am not sure since in Arabic it is اسلامیة and جمهوریة as far as I know. Anyhow, some elaboration is needed to minimize confusion. Since I know what you meant, I can add more details when I have time. MarkParker1221 (talk) 03:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)