Wiktionary:Information desk/2019/October

discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← September 2019 · October 2019 · November 2019 → · (current)

Aurally misinterpreting "ends meet" as "end's meat"Edit

(I didn't know where else to put this, so forgive me if it is misplaced.)

Would something like that be an eggcorn?

What I mean is: if someone interprets "make ends meet" (when hearing it, and not having read it) as "make end's meat" (get one's food at the end of the day), would that be an eggcorn?

The interpretation is understandable, and isn't illogical. Consider:

"Jim struggled through those years to make ends meet".

That could be easily (mis)construed as:

"Jim struggled through those years to make *end's meat" (in other words, Jim struggled through those years to simply put food on the table). Tharthan (talk) 13:25, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Some cases found in print: [1], [2], [3].  --Lambiam 16:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes, why wouldn't it? Equinox 21:06, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
I thought that it was, but sometimes I second guess myself there. Now that I rethought the question, it does seem to be a bit odd that I doubted myself in this particular case. Anyway, Lambiam has just found three citations, so perhaps it might be worth creating an entry for it. We have entries for other eggcorns. Tharthan (talk) 21:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

How to link from WP …Edit

directly to the 2nd English 'Noun' definition for 'establishment' — i.e., "The ruling class or authority group in a society …" as an in-line wikilink or as a box indicating Wiktionary has that definition? Thx, Humanengr (talk) 17:13, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

If you create an anchor at that sense by adding {{senseid|en|ruling class}}, you can use [[wikt:establishment#English-ruling_class]] over at WP.  --Lambiam 16:32, 3 October 2019 (UTC)


khmer and other languages. can u tell me where to have a entry sheet or something for foreign entries? Thnx Docsquareboston (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

When editing a page, there should be a palette immediately below the Publish changes — Show preview — Show changes buttons that has a dropdown menu for selecting and switching the palette, starting with “Latin/Roman”. You’ll find “Khmer” somewhere halfway down the list – apart from the first few items, the list is alphabetic by the name of the script. Obviously, we do not offer support for all scripts, but it is possible to extend the list if there is enough demand.  --Lambiam 16:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC)


Hello! I made an edit to ǫgr adding the sense of a fish species. I included some alternative forms, but these are only applicable to Noun 1 and not to Noun 2. Should the headline Alternative forms still be above Etymology 1 in the hierarchy? One can then easily get the impression that the alternative forms are also applicable to Noun 2.

My second question is whether it makes sense to separate the etymologies altogether considering they ultimately come from the same root. My reasons for doing so are that they are of different gender and have separate declension patterns, and that it was done so in the source I used. Cheers, --Lundgren8 (t · c) 14:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

WT:ELE lists Alternative forms twice, both under Headings before the definitions and Headings after the definitions. The first is only applicable if the info does not depend on the meaning of the word (assuming polysemicity).  --Lambiam 17:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Adjectives in Excessive ReadingEdit

After a whole year trying to contact its author, I haven't been able to access the following article about the Chinese language

Adjectives in Excessive Reading  

I'd appreciate it so much if somebody could spare a copy. --Backinstadiums (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

This tutorial page has errors?Edit

I know it isn't that important in the grand scheme of things but this part of the tutorial is unintelligible in places: Help:Further_reading

I would try and fix it myself if I could actually tell what some of these sentences are trying to say ^^; Snizzbut (talk) 22:09, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

What is wrong with it specifically? The computer code is there on purpose. Equinox 22:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm confused about WT:NORMEdit

I was looking at my edit to atom in the page history, which can be found here [4] and noticed that my edit was tagged with WT:NORM. I read the page, but it's kind of confusing. Could I get some advice on what I did wrong? Clovermoss (talk) 20:16, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

It means the page has old-style formatting that needs fixing. It probably isn't the bit that you edited. It just means that page somewhere, perhaps in another place, has an issue. You can ignore it. Equinox 20:18, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for letting me know. Another question: how exactly do I cite references? The definition I gave for atom is actually used, but I understand why others might be skeptical of it, so I'd like to able to prove the existence of this usage. Clovermoss (talk) 20:26, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
See WT:CITE. But it is quite a long page so you might be able to copy a citation from elsewhere and work out which bits to change. (Use the Preview button to check.) Equinox 20:33, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
I made these edits [5], [6]. Did I do everything the way I was suppossed to? I want to make sure I'm doing things right, as I'm new to Wiktionary. Clovermoss (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Looks okay but I would question the wording of the definition. It could be misread as meaning "an atom is an age group division in hockey", so that "there are five atoms in hockey" would mean there were five age divisions. Can this be used of individuals, e.g. "she's an atom in the local hockey team"? Equinox 23:17, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes, actually. Your example would work perfectly in that context; another example would be "She won first place in Atom girls long jump". I'm not sure if the hockey usage is different from the general Canadian context, but this news article also talks about Atom in regards to sports: [7]. Clovermoss (talk) 23:22, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Clarification: Atom is more the division itself, but it's based on an individual's age, there's other divisions like that such as Peewee. Clovermoss (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
This news article might also be helpful [8], as both Atom and Peewee are used in it. Clovermoss (talk) 23:42, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@Clovermoss– I have the impression that the hockey-related sense is specific to Canada. In that case it should be labelled “{{lb|en|Canada}}”.  --Lambiam 23:22, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
@Clovermoss: I added a note about the edit tag at WT:NORM because probably other editors are wondering the same thing but just haven't posted. Hopefully it's clear enough. — Eru·tuon 00:10, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Ancient Greek family treeEdit

The family tree at Category:Ancient Greek language, has too many mistakes (Discussion). Some ancient dialects are placed and modern, and modern under ancient. I understand that it is technically difficult to correct. Perhaps it could be withdrawn? Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 02:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Ι thank Erutuon who took care of this problem. As always, he is most helpful. sarri.greek (talk) 12:02, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn’t Pontic Greek be shown as a descendant of Byzantine Greek?  --Lambiam 13:51, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam: That seems right, judging from the Wikipedia article. I've moved that and Cappadocian Greek and Yevanic under Byzantine Greek using Module:family tree/data. (That means it will only affect the family tree, not {{inh}} or anything else on Wiktionary.) — Eru·tuon 17:23, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Lambiam and Erutuon! It looks perfect! sarri.greek (talk) 02:23, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's good now:
--Jumpirip (talk) 11:48, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@Jumpirip: Thanks for the corrections. I've moved Cretan. Quite embarrassing to have confused Crete and Cyprus. Calabrian Greek was supposed to be demoted from a full-fledged language (Category:Calabrian Greek language) to a subvariety of Italiot Greek (Category:Calabrian Greek) in our entries; not sure where we are in that process. — Eru·tuon 23:53, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

According to the Peace Corps Malagasy Language Course, the verb Mihinana is "to eat"Edit

Yet here on the website I find the meaning is to Embezzle? I think you may have a translation error. If I'm correct, shouldn't embezzle be "Fanodikodinam-bola" ? 14:06, 13 October 2019 (UTC)Just learning the language.

Thanks for pointing this out. As you can see in this Malagasy dictionary, at “English definition”, to embezzle is a secondary (figurative) meaning. The primary meaning is to eat. In one case food is consumed, in the other case money.   Fixed.  --Lambiam 22:33, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

What does this German(ish) mean?Edit

Hi. I tried to post this on the Translation Requests page, but despite being an admin, I was blocked. So let's try it here. This is German, but it's either a strong dialect or some kind of joke form like "Pig Latin". What does it mean?

  • wiedie affen rumjelaffen
  • rumkugeln nur draussen
  • did he put the schminke thick?
  • hahahahahhaHAHAHAAH dit is voll und janz deutsch kensnte nur nich
  • janz dicke schminek uffjetragen wie sau

Equinox 18:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I don’t know the source, but it feels like the lines were written by different authors. The following is the best I can make of it.
In line 1, “wiedie” is probably “wie die”. I can’t place “rumjel”, perhaps “rum gel” if that is a thing.
  • like apes, rum gel apes. (Or monkeys – German does not make the distinction that English does.)
Second line
  • rum balls only outside
Third line
  • did he put [on] the make-up thickly?
In line 4, I think “kensnte” is a typo for “kennste”, dialectal for ”kennst du”. Also “janz” may be an alternative spelling of “ganz”.
  • hahahahahhaHAHAHAAH, this is full and total; you just don’t know German. (Added interpunction is pure guess work.)
In the last line, “schminek” is a typo for “schminke”, and “uffjetragen” is probably a dialectal form of “aufgetragen“, the pp of auftragen.
  • totally thick make-up applied like [a] pig.
 --Lambiam 22:02, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Or in line 1 “rumjelaffen” is in standard German “herumgelaufen”, the pp of herumlaufen. In that case,
  • [He/she has] run around like apes.
 --Lambiam 22:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Then possibly in the next line “rumkugeln” = “herumkugeln“, that is, “to roll around”.  --Lambiam 22:17, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
  • @Equinox: An abuse filter rejects translation requests with "insert source language" and "insert target language". Added a more helpful warning message. — Eru·tuon 22:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


wie die Affen rumgelaufen (herumgelaufen)
rumkugeln (herumkugeln) [or less likely: Rumkugeln] nur draußen
dies/dieß ist voll und ganz deutsch; kennste (kennst Du) nur nicht
ganz dicke Schminke aufgetragen wie Sau

-Jumpirip (talk) 13:37, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Right, that made no sense at all. I shake the hand of whoever bothered with it. Equinox 02:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Category:English genericized trademarksEdit

Hey- QQ.

Looking through for uni project and noticed Levi's was there.

I checked the TM registration and it's not generic (https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/4/EU000033126)

I tried to move the page to but changes were revoked.

Anyone able to fix this?

Thx. Shelly.

Tough one really. When is a trademark "genericized"? When we start spelling it with lower-case? What if it was already lower-cased like "iPhone"? Probably we need to talk to Mediawiki legal. Equinox 21:40, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Although, Shelly, it might answer your question to say that "genericized" doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate trademark. It just means that it's entered the language as an everyday word for a type of thing (possibly not the thing made by the manufacturer who owns the trademark). Equinox 21:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
A word is genericized if it is used in generic ways. It has nothing to do with the official trademark registration. DTLHS (talk) 21:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Actually, in the UK it's not just about the word being 'generic' (as the category in question is there is an actual process for a Trademark to become 'generic' this is different from a word being in common use. The page is specifically about trademarks that were genericized not words that are generic for this to happen in England there has to be an actual challenge to the existing mark which (if successful) means that the mark can no longer be used by the company. In this case this has not happened so it should be moved to


i tried to create an entry in russian but the categories came out in English. Could someone tell me why?and how to fix? Wisercheez (talk) 22:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Resolved; see Talk:подвешивание.  --Lambiam 23:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I have to send a message to editors of Ancient Greek LanguageEdit


I need to contact the editors of the ancient Greek Language and tell them that I created the application under GNU GPL license (for Windows, MacOS, Linux) based on the data from Wiktionary.org

Data were used for

1. Automatically create a paradigm system 2. Creating a test system. In total, more than 333 thousand tests were created.

Take a look at:


code: https://github.com/mbykov/biblos.js/

packages for Win, MacOS, Linux: https://github.com/mbykov/biblos.js/releases/latest

I would like to hear reviews and comments about the application from the editors of the Wictionary.org

Please help me contact the editors and forward my message to them.


Michael Bykov

Create accountEdit

Hello! Is it possible to use my existing Wikipedia/Wikimedia account for Wiktionary? Or I need to create a new one? Thanks, Damjan. —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Yes, it is possible. Just log in to your Wikipedia account and open Wiktionary while logged in. — surjection?〉 11:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)